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Two years ago it was Ballack now Deco !


Star

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When will we learn ?

I'm not here to lambarst the result today, to be honest i've given up hope of us winning anything this season, all I want is to see the old Chelsea fight and team spirit that was here long before Kenyon virtually ruined our club in more ways than one.

To be honest I hope we win f all ever again until the bloke goes because from the top downwards it's been a complete disaster since we won the league for the second time under Jose.

Today not for the first time our brazillian boy that shone against Portsmouth and glittered for one moment against Wigan stayed on the pitch whilst the brilliant on the day Joey Cole was withdrawn.

I watched the game live on justin TV and Deco later gave the ball away in crucial positions on more than 4 occasions that against better teams we would have been punished.

It's a cry back to the days when blind faith kept Ballack in our starting line up and wrecked our system and mentality.

Big Phil has to simply hold court and play his best team, which as injuries forced him to play Drogba and Anelka today, which allowed Frankie to bombard forward as he should do and is magnificent at.

Forget the recent run we have had, it's basic tactics that need to be adressed and Joey Cole needs to be there with Drogba, Anelka and Lampard !

We all have our Chelsea back, I've never felt we could win a game in my life, Jose f up those thoughts, but hey since Roman wanted fancy football let him live with it as well !!!

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When will we learn ?

I'm not here to lambarst the result today, to be honest i've given up hope of us winning anything this season, all I want is to see the old Chelsea fight and team spirit that was here long before Kenyon virtually ruined our club in more ways than one.

To be honest I hope we win f all ever again until the bloke goes because from the top downwards it's been a complete disaster since we won the league for the second time under Jose.

Today not for the first time our brazillian boy that shone against Portsmouth and glittered for one moment against Wigan stayed on the pitch whilst the brilliant on the day Joey Cole was withdrawn.

I watched the game live on justin TV and Deco later gave the ball away in crucial positions on more than 4 occasions that against better teams we would have been punished.

It's a cry back to the days when blind faith kept Ballack in our starting line up and wrecked our system and mentality.

Big Phil has to simply hold court and play his best team, which as injuries forced him to play Drogba and Anelka today, which allowed Frankie to bombard forward as he should do and is magnificent at.

Forget the recent run we have had, it's basic tactics that need to be adressed and Joey Cole needs to be there with Drogba, Anelka and Lampard !

We all have our Chelsea back, I've never felt we could win a game in my life, Jose f up those thoughts, but hey since Roman wanted fancy football let him live with it as well !!!

oh look stars here, we must have dropped points. but your right, deco was played in his preferred position today and was still rubbish. wether this is partly to do fatigue due to a schedule hes not used to or hes just struggling for form he needs rested/dropped for a couple of weeks, especially with essien due a return soon (i hope).

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oh look stars here, we must have dropped points.

haha :(

I agree with the fact that Deco is no where near up to Chelsea standard atm.

I guess with Ballack, he did come good under Avram, so there is a chance for Deco. I did think he would drop form 2nd half of season as he did it often with Barca but his passing is just taking the piss!

ps. take him the f**k off corners, keep to Frank!

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I think Star is right: Scolari needs to stop justifying the purchase of Deco by playing him when he quite plainly is sucking balls.

The first 20 minutes he was total trash. Someone said it in the other thread: use him in short spurts, as a sub, and play him centrally. In any other role he is worthless.

Joe should start, make it until at least 65 minutes gone, and if he is not effective replace him with Deco. That should be Scolari's gameplan weekly, before events take hold, imo

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I think the fact that Joe's performance is described as 'brilliant' shows just how poorly we are playing and how thoroughly ineffective we are in advanced positions.

For me Joe was very poor in the first half and much improved in the second. However when he got himself into goal scoring opportunities he shot very weakly and blew good chances to put the game beyond doubt. I just can't see that as a brilliant performance.

I thought the switch of Kalou for Joe was the right one if the score was still 1-1 as if we had gone with Kalou for Deco we would left ourselves too exposed at the back. However what I didn't understand was making the change just when we weer lining up a direct free kick. It would have made a lot more sense to hold back on the swap to see if anything came of the free kick. Something did and I am damn sure Scolari would not have made that change at 2-1.

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I think the fact that Joe's performance is described as 'brilliant' shows just how poorly we are playing and how thoroughly ineffective we are in advanced positions.

For me Joe was very poor in the first half and much improved in the second. However when he got himself into goal scoring opportunities he shot very weakly and blew good chances to put the game beyond doubt. I just can't see that as a brilliant performance.

I thought the switch of Kalou for Joe was the right one if the score was still 1-1 as if we had gone with Kalou for Deco we would left ourselves too exposed at the back. However what I didn't understand was making the change just when we weer lining up a direct free kick. It would have made a lot more sense to hold back on the swap to see if anything came of the free kick. Something did and I am damn sure Scolari would not have made that change at 2-1.

Sorry Loz, meant to put that Joey was brilliant behind the front two against West Brom and still was withdrawn. Today he was put on the right first half then our best player IMOP when he was taken off today.

Kalou for Deco but not Joey, Mikel is enough cover / but when Juventus comes around if it aint Mikel, a fit Essien fingers crossed, Lampard and Joe Cole behind Drogba and Anelka, I suspect our old boss will put one over us !

Over two legs I see us out for sure because Deco and Ballack if fit will play.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is as well, like when I posted a month ago - i'm laying us for big money when we are short in price / I done it today and against West Ham - and Everton / but not against West Brom because the line up with Drog and Anelka up front made me think otherwise.

I'm sh*tloads up so i'm not complaining - holidays next year paid for if you know what I mean :lol:

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Star

Gotcha regarding Joe against the Baggies. I would like to say that Joe was taken off against the Baggies because Scolari knew he would be needed again two days later and because he was on form and therefore needed to be rested once the game was in the bag. I would like to be able to say that but I am not convinced it is true as taking off Joe seems to be Scolari's bread and butter tactic!

Getting Essien back is massive for us. Far more then I would have said last year as the midfield this year seems far more lacking in energy and drive than it did last year. Essien provides that in a way that Ballack and Deco couldn't dream of and Lampard only half delivers.

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Star,

just out of interest, and this isn't a dig at all, but who would you rather as our manager right now? I know a couple I had hoped for ruled themselves out, so Scolari was almost 3rd best option

Scott

Scott,

I wouldn't change Scolari, all I want is for him is to pick his best players and best formation.

I believe strongly that this has been the reason we are not the force we were, even given he lost Essien at the worst time possible.

Kenyon is the bloke who must go, in fact he shouldn't have been appointed in the first place.

I was watching sky yesterday when Man City were 2-0 down, at 2-1 I just knew Robinho was going to equalize, he duly oblliged and that must stick in Scolari's throat because Kenyon was the reason why the deal never went through.

NOBODY can do the Chelsea job.

Jose was in the position to do for Chelsea what Fergie has done at Man Utd.

Let's not forget that once Kenyon left they re-grouped and reclaimed the title from us and won the Champions League.

When Joey Cole slammed that goal in against them when we won the title for the second time, I thought there was no coming back, KENYON and KENYON only was responsible for their re-surgance, i'm not being far off the mark when I say as a Man Utd fan he kinda owed em something.

The Chelsea Manager hotseat is one that is impossible to do. INTERFERENCE is rife, if the Club from the top was as well structured as the REAL big clubs. Jose would have had the call of all players and appointments below him in a managerial way.

They gave Jose the role, then he delivered us the title twice, he appointed Steve Clarke, Brendon Rogers etc. Kenyon appointed Arneson, Avram Grant etc .

Fergie would have done his nut, Jose did and it affected performances on the pitch and behind the scenes and that's why he went. On reflection he had to go, he never wanted Ballack, Sheva etc , Roman or more to the point Kenyon did.

When I was getting info on players signing early in Kenyon's reign, it was because he was going round the club, be it in the ticket office, Chelsea TV area or Shed Bar, telling all and sundry he was the man, and the best negotiator around.

Well he got put in his place when he tried his cocky manc ways with Real Madrid, just like he did when he had Ronaldihno in the bag in his prime !

All Big Phil has to do is realize, he has Champion players already here. Joe Cole, Frank Lampard, John Terry, Michael Essien, Ricardo Cavalho, Didier Drogba, Petr Cech, ALL PREMIER LEAGUE WINNERS HERE AT CHELSEA.

The Malouda's, Deco's, Ballacks, etc of this world haven't and do not have the same desire and mentality for the job in the premiership.

Our system cries out for Anelka, Drogba, with Joey Cole behind. Teams come to the bridge to flood the middle of the park, as someone said maybe Jose's way had been sussed, so why still try to 'kin play it !!

Maka gone, yep so why at home when teams play one up do we 'kin need a holding midfielder ???????????????

Mikel and Ballack play with a cigar on, Mikel has more desire and more energy and more battling qualities he should be more advanced, central if you like.

There is no need for Deco when we have Joe Cole so the team with Lampard virtually picks itself. Ballack shouldn't be anwhere near the starting line up unless Mikel is banned or injured.

So Scott, let's stick with Scolari and all join me in writing to those who really matter at Chelsea , to oust Kenyon , who wanted us to spread the brand, to make us the biggest club in the world, and has farked up on all counts.

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I was watching sky yesterday when Man City were 2-0 down, at 2-1 I just knew Robinho was going to equalize, he duly oblliged and that must stick in Scolari's throat because Kenyon was the reason why the deal never went through

it wasnt kenyons fault at all. it was the fact that we were outbid by the city owners who wanted to make a massive statement and madrid not wanting to sell to us. what did you want kenyon and chelsea to do? keep upping the bid until it got to a ridiculous figure?

I thought there was no coming back, KENYON and KENYON only was responsible for their re-surgance, i'm not being far off the mark when I say as a Man Utd fan he kinda owed em something.

thats preposterous, and quite possibly the most ridiculous thing ive ever read on here. i think ferguson and a large amount of money being spent had quite a bit to do with it.

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it wasnt kenyons fault at all. it was the fact that we were outbid by the city owners who wanted to make a massive statement and madrid not wanting to sell to us. what did you want kenyon and chelsea to do? keep upping the bid until it got to a ridiculous figure?

Exactly! There was nothing Kenyon could do about it. City outbid us and Real accepted their bid. After City's bid was accepted, there was nothing Chelsea could do about it. As much as I'd like to blame Kenyon, I just can't justify it at the moment.

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it wasnt kenyons fault at all. it was the fact that we were outbid by the city owners who wanted to make a massive statement and madrid not wanting to sell to us. what did you want kenyon and chelsea to do? keep upping the bid until it got to a ridiculous figure?

thats preposterous, and quite possibly the most ridiculous thing ive ever read on here. i think ferguson and a large amount of money being spent had quite a bit to do with it.

Mate you don't get it do you.

Kenyon was on our victory parade bus - blabbing about Sheva and Ballack - Jose wanted Tevez and he was a major player in their title bid last season, but players isnt really the issue is it ?

Kenyon stated on national TV that Robinho was in the bag, how you can talk about a bidding war when KENYON paid ridiculous amounts of cash for the likes of Crespo, Veron, Shevchencko etc etc and got f all in return.

The shirt thing with Robinho's name on it - the press conference that KENYON INSTIGATED ( He met Robinho's agent in one of the most popular Restraunts in Madrid for f ske ! )

If you re read my post - you will see clearly my point that Kenyon is the cause of US not building the Jose empire and they have with Fergie.

THAT'S WHAT BROUGHT MAN U BACK IN THE BALL GAME ! Tevez apart the had the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney etc already at the club !

Taking the club into Far Eastern places to train, USA when Jose didnt want it, purely to spread the corporate brand.

Think of the seedy meetings with Ericcsson in hotels, the contracts he has delayed, for god's sake if Frankie Lampard didnt have the family ties over here we would have lost him for sure.

Kenyon is a liar, cheat and in any other industry he would be sacked for incompetance.

Chelsea fans in general have to look at what Kenyon has done, the best coaches we have had at the club, i'm talking down to the youth set up have all GONE.

He upset everyone by bringing in Arneson. We need a bloke like Hutch who never whispered a word, never bragged on tv, just got on with his job - Zola, Gullit, Di Matteo etc etc not a whisper, no hotels, restraunts - much was the same with Trevor Birch.

This bloke is a financial disaster ! Chelsea held to ranson over Robinho don't make me laugh ! Once City had agreed the price Kenyon was on the phone squeeling for a meet !

Same with Ronaldihno when he signed for Barcelona when he was at Man U.

Take it from me, I know many a corporate tosser through my work at Old Trafford and they couldn't wait to see the back of him !!!

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so you honestly think kenyon is the sole reason for man utd`s resurgence? unbeliveable.

I think what Star is saying more is that we let United off the hook. We were in a position to dominate for years to come and instead the Kenyon disaster has unsettled our foundations allowing United the chance to overtake us again. United would still have been our closest rivals no matter what but we should have been in a position where we didn't care who was chasing us. Instead now we are in the chasing pack and arguably showing signs of struggling with that. I'm not in a position to see whether Kenyon is the only factor but I do know we are heading in the wrong direction if we continue with the policy adopted over the last year or two. The Championship winning side is gradually dissolving each year and the more high profile signings have, on the whole, not maintained the original strength of the squad. In the next few years we are likely to see the following key players either leave or come close to retirement: Lamps, Drogs, Ricky. Ash, Joey and JT are also in their late 20's now. How we replace these players will determine the future of the club. Since we are showing very little interest in promoting players from the youth team at present then the onus will be on signings unless something changes. We need to have somebody better than Kenyon managing that situation.

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If you look at the club since Kenyon has arrived, there certainly has been an air of unrest. As you said, all the coaches have gone but Kenyon the red continues to walk about with that smarmy look on his face. A good, solid backroom staff is the foundation of a great team. Now we hear Scolari even admit on tv that "Kenyon is the Boss," or words to that effect.

If he is underminding the principals of our coaches, then he has to go!

Scott

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If you look at the club since Kenyon has arrived, there certainly has been an air of unrest. As you said, all the coaches have gone but Kenyon the red continues to walk about with that smarmy look on his face. A good, solid backroom staff is the foundation of a great team. Now we hear Scolari even admit on tv that "Kenyon is the Boss," or words to that effect.

If he is underminding the principals of our coaches, then he has to go!

Scott

and where do you think kenyon gets his orders from? hes romans general and passes on romans will and words, basically hes romans puppet. or do you honestly believe he just does the things he does on a whim without and consultation with the people above him?

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I'm not sure mate, but I think Roman is the owner and financial backing of the club whereas Kenyon advises him on who to hire and to buy. Of course this is merely speculation as I don't really know. But, Kenyon certainly has an arrogance about him as if he is the cock-of-the-walk! It is Kenyon that wanted to create the Chelsea brand. Was it not under his reign that Man U lost the "football club" from their badges?

Scott

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I'm not sure mate, but I think Roman is the owner and financial backing of the club whereas Kenyon advises him on who to hire and to buy. Of course this is merely speculation as I don't really know. But, Kenyon certainly has an arrogance about him as if he is the cock-of-the-walk! It is Kenyon that wanted to create the Chelsea brand. Was it not under his reign that Man U lost the "football club" from their badges?

Scott

dont get me wrong, i can stand kenyon. but i also dont believe everything bad that happens at chelsea is all down to kenyon, and i also dont think he really has that much sway over policys at chelsea. if anything, its the likes of tennenbaum and bruce buck who hold the real power. kenyon is the face of chelseam and unfortunately its not a nice one.

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dont get me wrong, i can stand kenyon. but i also dont believe everything bad that happens at chelsea is all down to kenyon, and i also dont think he really has that much sway over policys at chelsea. if anything, its the likes of tennenbaum and bruce buck who hold the real power. kenyon is the face of chelseam and unfortunately its not a nice one.

By my understanding Roman is obviously the owner and the likes of Tennenbaum and Buck are on the Executive Board. Then you have Kenyon as the equivalent of CEO. He is obviously accountable to the board but most likely he has a significant input when it comes down to new personnel recommendations whether it be players or coaching staff. I'm pretty sure that the request for Sheva came from the very top and clearly Roman has also requested a certain style of football. But beyond that I think most of the responsibilities have been left to Kenyon and the coaching staff. It does seem as though we have been involved in a lot more embarassments over tranfers snce Kenyon took over though. When you think about the various allegations of tapping up through to the farce over Robinho. Lets not forger that Birch was in charge when Roman first took over and he presided over our busiest time in the transfer market. We may well have bought a number of flops during that time but we also brought in some key personnel and I don't remember too much drama over any of the actual transfer deals.

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By my understanding Roman is obviously the owner and the likes of Tennenbaum and Buck are on the Executive Board. Then you have Kenyon as the equivalent of CEO. He is obviously accountable to the board but most likely he has a significant input when it comes down to new personnel recommendations whether it be players or coaching staff. I'm pretty sure that the request for Sheva came from the very top and clearly Roman has also requested a certain style of football. But beyond that I think most of the responsibilities have been left to Kenyon and the coaching staff. It does seem as though we have been involved in a lot more embarassments over tranfers snce Kenyon took over though. When you think about the various allegations of tapping up through to the farce over Robinho. Lets not forger that Birch was in charge when Roman first took over and he presided over our busiest time in the transfer market. We may well have bought a number of flops during that time but we also brought in some key personnel and I don't remember too much drama over any of the actual transfer deals.

if, as you believe kenyon makes these decisions, do you not think buck, tennenbaum and roman would be pretty miffed at certain things that have happened and would have made kenyon accountable for them by now? the club name was besmirched many times the last few years and im sure the powers that be wouldnt have been too impressed by it.

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I think what Star is saying more is that we let United off the hook. We were in a position to dominate for years to come and instead the Kenyon disaster has unsettled our foundations allowing United the chance to overtake us again. United would still have been our closest rivals no matter what but we should have been in a position where we didn't care who was chasing us. Instead now we are in the chasing pack and arguably showing signs of struggling with that. I'm not in a position to see whether Kenyon is the only factor but I do know we are heading in the wrong direction if we continue with the policy adopted over the last year or two. The Championship winning side is gradually dissolving each year and the more high profile signings have, on the whole, not maintained the original strength of the squad. In the next few years we are likely to see the following key players either leave or come close to retirement: Lamps, Drogs, Ricky. Ash, Joey and JT are also in their late 20's now. How we replace these players will determine the future of the club. Since we are showing very little interest in promoting players from the youth team at present then the onus will be on signings unless something changes. We need to have somebody better than Kenyon managing that situation.

B)

You have it in one Forbzy !

The moment I turned to my son the day Joey bashed the ball in to the Mancs net to claim our second title on the bounce ....

"That's them done for - the next decade is ours."

How wrong I was :(

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Kenyon is no favorite of mine but he is not at fault for Robinho's fiasco. Real clearly didn't want to sell Robinho to us and City coming up with a huge bid at the eleventh hour was like a God's gift to Madrid because despite their claims they had no other choice but to do business with us until City came into the oil money. The player didn't do himself any credit either,by calling a press conference a day before the transfer window closed and announcing his desire to sign for Chelsea only to join City a day later. City were bombarding many clubs with massive bids on that day, but only Robinho gamble paid off.

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I think in the global football arena, marketing is important. So from that perspective, I believe Kenyon has done some good for us.

Having said that, I don't believe it is more important than football itself. I do believe what you say, Star, and thanks for sharing your views. As time goes on, my frustrations mirror yours, because we're not looking good at the moment. I still hope upon hope that Scolari is allowed to turn us around. I do believe in him as a football coach and it is high time we got back some stability. What I do hope for is for the men above him to stop "meddling". I still believe Jose would have us dominating if he had complete control over the footballing side of the club but that he didn't and in the end he couldn't stand it.

Give Scolari a fair chance; let him sign his own players in January to rejuvenate the squad and our chances. And if he's not able to win anything this season, so be it. Give him another season to do his thing with his own players and his own philosophy. NO MORE MEDDLING!

Cheers,

Butch

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I agree with almost everything said here. In particular about the lost opportunity we had to unseat Man Utd at the apex of English football. Now they are firmly back there and not looking like they are leaving anytime soon.

Kenyon's continued presence at Chelsea comes down to one thing and one thing only: profitability. That is why he works here and isnt still in Manchester.

And for someone like him, and the other money men in football, I think that comes down to three things: attractive football, big name signings which can sell shirts, and overseas marketing to get every last dollar. All three of these things we have seen with increasing frequency since Roman and Kenyon got here. But I think to supporters and real fans, they dont matter one iota compared to winning trophies.

With the football, we had a functional team under Jose that was a steamroller against all others in the premiership. We breezed to the title his first two years, conceded nothing, and won so many games that were battles of attrition and will because we had the kind of players who would do it. The get down in the trenches, blue collar type players. And even when we didnt win the league in year three, we still won silverware.

But obviously these things were, on their own, not making us a popular brand. We had Eidur Gudjohnsen and Tiago Mendes yet people (and obviously fans) lusted after Kaka and Leo Messi. In certain cases, such as with a striker, we were justified. It was an area in which we needed help at the time. But we were such a technically sound side that the only improvement which could be made was with aesthetics. Cue Ballack, Sheva, etc etc. All established stars when those signings had failed so miserably only a few years before (Mutu, Veron, Crespo) as opposed to all the younger, less glamorous ones that succeeded (Duff, Cech, Robben, Maka)

I dont doubt the mental fortitude of players like Ballack and Deco. Every game they fight out there on the pitch, or at least appear to be doing so. But wanting to succeed and trying are two different things, and I think now we have the kind of players who are comfortable no matter what the result because, at the end of the day, they are still rich and famous, and they play for a club at which the almighty dollar is put far ahead of pride in the badge and the clubs history. Kenyon running the show, if he indeed runs the show, is part of that.

Some players, like Lamps, this doesnt apply to. He has given alot to this club and was here "when", so I exclude him. But right now, I think the attitude which comes down from the top says "Its ok not to win, as long as we sell out at the gates". I dont mean that literally, of course, but thats the jist. The club is a business for Roman now, not a passion or a hobby. And the way its run by the men he has put in charge reflects that in the decision making and comedy of errors we have seen in the last few years.

I understand that, at the end of the day, securing the clubs future is what is important. But I dont think that should come at the expense of principle. People like Guddy and Zola and JFH and Tiago were proud to put on a Chelsea shirt. Alot of the people on the pitch today have their names secured in big lights by big name football companies, and are sure to go down as legends if they retired tomorrow. They passion of the players should reflect the passion of the fans. And right now I just think too many of our players could be labeled as "comfortable".

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