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Manure fans clash with italian police


abramovich
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Hard to comment on it without seeing more footage and being more aware of the full facts however I think any of us who have followed Chelsea abroad in Europe are all too aware of some of the rough treatment received at the hands of police, the vast majority of which has been uncalled for or a massive over reaction to a minor incident.

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Oh, poor ickle manure gits getting hit by the big mean cops little stick.

What I'm interested in is if the fans had done anything to deserve to be hit, apart from being ManU-supporters that is.

Ever been caught in the head by a coppers truncheon Moos?

No I didn't think so.

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Oh, poor ickle manure gits getting hit by the big mean cops little stick.

What I'm interested in is if the fans had done anything to deserve to be hit, apart from being ManU-supporters that is.

Ever been caught in the head by a coppers truncheon Moos?

No I didn't think so.

Of course not. I'm a good little boy who follows the law. If I break the law I prefer to brake it behind the coppers back and blame someone else icon_lol.gif

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Of course not. I'm a good little boy who follows the law. If I break the law I prefer to brake it behind the coppers back and blame someone else icon_lol.gif

Which translates to:

I have never followed Chelsea overseas and have never witnessed he kind of treatment that English travelling fans often get from local police forces (and I mean all English clubs, not just Chelsea). I have no idea what I am talking about and should refrain from proving that point.

See that bloke getting smacked 15 times with a truncheon. He has a family, maybe kids. He may, or may not, have got involved in something however police are supposed to uphold the law, not thrash someone umpteen times when they are lying on the ground defenceless.

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I never said that what the cops did was right (even though he is a ManU-supporter). But before we start judging the cops it would be good to know what started all this. We have no idea what that guy who got hit like 15 times had done. Had he tried to stab someone? Had he done nothing but was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Have I ever followed Chelsea overseas? No. In fact I haven't been to any game at all.

Do I know what treatment "we" get? Not entire since I've never experienced it. I have just read about it (very little).

I prove my point out of my own perspective. That is all.

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That's a F***ing disgrace.

Over here - one of our old bill did that he'd get slaughtered and rightly so. Bet he'll get away scot free over there. And of course the Italian fans are so well behaved icon_rolleyes.gif

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That's a F***ing disgrace.

Over here - one of our old bill did that he'd get slaughtered and rightly so. Bet he'll get away scot free over there. And of course the Italian fans are so well behaved icon_rolleyes.gif

I have first hand expirence 15 years ago about "Italian fans and their "behaivor" just like I'm sure all of us do biggrin.gif
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I know that a lot of us on here hate the mancs, but that is totally uncalled for. I didn't even see that bloke (albeit we see about 2 seconds of build up) doing anything wrong. I think he was merely guitly of falling over then getting leathered by the Italians.

Don't know what the fella at the end had done to him, but it is shocking. However, we also need to realize that this is the second time in as many away European matches that Man U fans have been involved in crownd trouble. Therefore I think that UEFA needs to do something. I also think, although this is tenuous, that the Italian police had the manc's reputation in their heads and were over zealous in their efforts to quell a situation.

However, the plight of English fans travelling abroad is well documented, and as always it is a few bad apples who spoil it all for the rest. I hope that the Italian police, adn Man U alike are issued fines for both their disgusting behaviour

Scott

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I never said that what the cops did was right (even though he is a ManU-supporter). But before we start judging the cops it would be good to know what started all this. We have no idea what that guy who got hit like 15 times had done. Had he tried to stab someone? Had he done nothing but was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Have I ever followed Chelsea overseas? No. In fact I haven't been to any game at all.

Do I know what treatment "we" get? Not entire since I've never experienced it. I have just read about it (very little).

I prove my point out of my own perspective. That is all.

what is your point?

what possible situation can you advocate or even justify that type of measure. they are there to prevent violence.

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I never said that what the cops did was right (even though he is a ManU-supporter). But before we start judging the cops it would be good to know what started all this. We have no idea what that guy who got hit like 15 times had done. Had he tried to stab someone? Had he done nothing but was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Have I ever followed Chelsea overseas? No. In fact I haven't been to any game at all.

Do I know what treatment "we" get? Not entire since I've never experienced it. I have just read about it (very little).

I prove my point out of my own perspective. That is all.

what is your point?

what possible situation can you advocate or even justify that type of measure. they are there to prevent violence.

Cops might be there to prevent violence but they can't succed all the time. When there's 100 cops against thousands of people it can sometimes be difficult to keep them all peaceful. Who's to blame?

What can justify what the cops did? There's many things, most of them highly unlikely to have occured.

But at the moment we don't know what happened, right? So let's not start judging everybody immediately.

Perhaps there was a reason for the cops reaction? Perhaps there wasn't.

If there was a reason, was all the hitting necessary?

If there wasn't a reason, why did it happen?

When we see that vid it seems all clear that the guy on the ground are the good guy and the guy hitting are the bad guy but if there's one thing I've learnt in life it's that everything isn't black or white.

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bah. so, when the guy is curled up in a ball, and is still being beaten, what do you call that? policing? self defence? it certainly isn't the way to gain control of a group.

I'll try one last time, by rephrasing:

"brutality like that is unacceptable. discuss."

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I would imagine that one of the repercussions of last night will be that any slim hope (and it was extremely slim anyway) of a return to any standing areas in games are now well and truly extinguished. The Olympic stadium, although officially all seater as all stadiums need to be, is very far from an all seater in reality and it is this factor that makes it easy for fans to move around freely and, as witnessed last night, be able to 'attack' the seperation fences.

I heard this morning that the Olympic Stadium is currently scheduled to host the CL final in either 2008 or 2009 which I hadn't realised. If it is 2008 then there is surely a good chance that UEFA will take it to another venue and if it si 2009 you would expect, at a minimum, the stadium would need to be revamped before the final could go ahead there.

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I would imagine that one of the repercussions of last night will be that any slim hope (and it was extremely slim anyway) of a return to any standing areas in games are now well and truly extinguished. The Olympic stadium, although officially all seater as all stadiums need to be, is very far from an all seater in reality and it is this factor that makes it easy for fans to move around freely and, as witnessed last night, be able to 'attack' the seperation fences.

I heard this morning that the Olympic Stadium is currently scheduled to host the CL final in either 2008 or 2009 which I hadn't realised. If it is 2008 then there is surely a good chance that UEFA will take it to another venue and if it si 2009 you would expect, at a minimum, the stadium would need to be revamped before the final could go ahead there.

I remember 2008 would be Moscow "Luzhniki", but there is a small chance I`m wrong and it would be 2009. icon_wink.gif

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The same thing happened to us in Rome when we beat Lazio. My old man who there's no way you would find him threatening to look at, came out of the toilet and got smashed by the old bill. I wrote to everyone I could to complain about the behaviour of their police and the only response I got was from Chelsea telling me that they were aware of what had happened at that they would make their report to UEFA but that I shouldn't expect to hear any more about it. UEFA said thank you for your letter!!!

The Italian police really are scum and hopefully something will happen this time but the big thing is that this was not isolated.

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Moos

In the cold light of day maybe I was a little harsh on you last night!

I still disagree with the sentiment which you appear to be making that there is a possible scenario where that fan may have deserved that beating or that the policeman's actions were justified however I was probably a tad abrupt in my response to you!

I totally accept that we don't have the full facts and have only seen brief footage of what happened (and we certainly don't know what went on outside the stadium) however I do stand by the point that the policve are there to uphold the law, not to break the law. In upholding the law I accept that there is a degree of 'reasonable force' required but that reasonable force should only be used until such point as the situation is under control and the the person in question is no longer presenting a risk.

In the particular incident in the clip that Utd dan was very far form presenting a risk and was clearly 'under control' and therefore irrespective of anything he may have done to warrant being attacked by the policemen in the first place was clearly no longer a viable threat well before the beating stopped.

What we saw last night was a policement out of control and that is an undesirable characteristic in someone charged with upholding the law and allegedly a responsibility for keeping the peace. That was simply a thug in protective clothing, he wasn't doing that because he ahd to, he was doing it because he was either enjoying it or, more worryingly, had been trained to.

I very much doubt that anything will happen to the policeman in question in terms of action against him by the Italian police force (although it would be refreshing to be proved wrong) however I would love to see the Utd fan in question push charges through the European courts. Unlikely to happen because of the potential financial burden for him (and also the fact that if he was guilty of anything this would be highlighted) but it would make for a very interesting case and just might have a knock on effect in terms of how polivce behave in many European countries when there are travelling fans in town.

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The same thing happened to us in Rome when we beat Lazio. My old man who there's no way you would find him threatening to look at, came out of the toilet and got smashed by the old bill. I wrote to everyone I could to complain about the behaviour of their police and the only response I got was from Chelsea telling me that they were aware of what had happened at that they would make their report to UEFA but that I shouldn't expect to hear any more about it. UEFA said thank you for your letter!!!

The Italian police really are scum and hopefully something will happen this time but the big thing is that this was not isolated.

Barn, I was there as well and saw a number of incidents where the coppers were very heavy handed. Nothing happened to me (purely through good fortune I have to say as things kicked off very close to me) but the incidents I saw just emphasised that I could be just as 'guilty' as anyone in the eyes of the police and I am far from a trouble maker at football. I would say at least 70% of what I saw was the sort of thing that British coppers see week in week out in and around pubs at Premiership games and do no more than make themselves visible or at worst a few quiet words. Another 20% maybe warranted a few being at least seperated from the crowd and calmed down and then maybe 10% warranted an arrest. But no, that isn't what happened at all!

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there were incidents outside the stadium between manu fans and tifosi from as roma.

both clubs should be strongly punished. the probleme with italian football is that their cops, like the french ones, are not trained to deal with football fans, they just deal with it like a street riot. i don't understand why they don't hire stewards.

when i went to manchester with lille, the cops treated us very politely, with respect. can't say the same about our cops in france, the way they treat us in away games is disgusting...

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Loz, this matter of supporters behaviours has been discussed before on the old CSR, and I remember quite well the (in)famous World Cup threads.

First of all, NO police brutality is excusable, and believe me I have felt it on my own skin.

Secondly, I believe the majority of english supporters in general have been wrongly targeted on several ocasions.

HOWEVER - and I raised this before - what is considered "jest" or other similar situations by the british fans, can be seen as higly provocative and even offensive by others. (from diferent cultures)

Are Italian fans, Portuguese fans, Samoan fans better ? I'm not saying they are, and they may even be worse, my point is...your tauntings are something that other countries and inhabitants can find very offensive and very provocative - TO THEIR STANDARDS, while ON THESE COUNTRIES, caspisce ?

On several ocasions - and I'm a pretty moderate guy - I almost boiled with situations like these from english and scottish supporters here in Portugal.

This isn't supposed to be a neo-nazi rant, but if I travel to England, I'm gonna try to behave BY YOUR STANDARDS.

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I appreciate what you're saying here about the taunting of our host nations, but honestly these Italian police do not need any winding up, they let the Italian fans throw what they want at visiting fans then if someone dares to complain they get a beating. By anyone's standards the Italian police are the scum of the earth when it comes to their treatment of English fans (I don't know if they treat all visiting fans the same!).

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Point taken Sofa and I do remember the threads you are talking about well (I'm sure most of us do) and not for a second do I deny that British fans abroad (in fact British people abroad full stop) can be very offensive and disrespectful to the local cultures and mannerisms of the country hosting them.

However (and I know you are saying this as well) that behaviour does not merit a physical beating from the police., For one that, for me, is an inappropriate way for police to behave in any country and secondly it only serves to intensify ill feeling bewteen different nationalities (as we have seen on here over the years)

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