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Set piece setup - area for improvement


ws6blue

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Burnley (both goals) another example of poor setup when defending set pieces - especially against bigger teams, and coaches who have worked us out.

Sarri has gone for a 'pure' zonal system, so no one is marking anyone man to man but standing in their appointed zone where they attempt to defend the ball if it enters their zone.

Every other team (not checked absolutely all PL teams tbh) has a combination of zonal and man to man marking - with that system some players are static but others on the move with the opposing team runners. That creates movement from some defenders, whereas 'pure' zonal doesn't - that movement introduces an essential dynamic as those players will continue their movement as the ball comes in and will hone in on where the ball is. 'Pure' zonal encourages the defenders to stand their if not in their zone, and not hunt the ball. Sorry if this is all obvious but if you folks can see that why can't Sarri?

Burnleys first goal was terrible setup with no one patrolling the edge of the box...................but the second goal was absolutely awful - three headers, all unchallenged as our players being static did not react - take a look at the goal and watch their players chase the ball and ours watch the ball.

Manu are a biggish physical team and with their newly found fondness for the long ball will be seeking as many set plays in the last third as they can on Sunday - we have to improve this aspect of our tactics.

Sure Villa could teach us some lessons - by Villa I mean JT obvs.

 

 

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That is the fault of the players, not the zonal Vs man marking. 

I think a lack of leaders in our backline is the issue. The greatest manager in the world needs leaders in defence on the pitch.

Both of Burnley's goals were mistakes of application. Not tactics. 

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26 minutes ago, EmeraldBlue said:

Most people here seem to favour Emerson over Alonso but I've been pulling out my remaining hairs watching the goals left in on our left side. Being brushed off by Salah for God's sake...

To be fair, Salah probably isn't the best example - he's actually pretty strong on the ball.  But agreed that Emerson is brushed off too easily.

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I could probably write a book on this. One of my biggest reasons, and I have a few, for wanting Sarri gone. Defensively he is absolutely clueless at setting up a football team to provide a strong barrier. And that is no more finely illustrated than at set pieces. We are dreadful.

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13 hours ago, bisright1 said:

That is the fault of the players, not the zonal Vs man marking. 

I think a lack of leaders in our backline is the issue. The greatest manager in the world needs leaders in defence on the pitch.

Both of Burnley's goals were mistakes of application. Not tactics. 

We have exactly the same set of defenders that won the league back in 2017 plus Rudiger. Cahill is available, but it's the manager's choice he isn't playing. Moses was deemed a surplus so he was loaned out. How is it that the players  that were winning titles only a couple of years ago now suddenly forgot how to defend properly? Who was providing leadership back then if it's the same group of defenders?

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Why change to Zonal  marking? It's another thing that didn't need to be changed but this manager decided to make a mess of it, just to prove he got a philosophy. We had managers in the past tempering with Zonal marking, it's always failed and only way to fix it was to go back to man marking and do the simple things. Sure, you get the occasion of shorter player against taller at and disadvantage, but it's NOT about winning every header, you put enough pressure on the player to mark and make it as difficult as possible for him to score. With Zonal, we all know what's it like from Burnley, Everton games etc.

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30 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Why change to Zonal  marking? It's another thing that didn't need to be changed but this manager decided to make a mess of it, just to prove he got a philosophy. We had managers in the past tempering with Zonal marking, it's always failed and only way to fix it was to go back to man marking and do the simple things. Sure, you get the occasion of shorter player against taller at and disadvantage, but it's NOT about winning every header, you put enough pressure on the player to mark and make it as difficult as possible for him to score. With Zonal, we all know what's it like from Burnley, Everton games etc.

Didn't the zonal marking come more into being because of the ruling that refs were going to clamp down on defenders tugging the attackers shirts?

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I don’t think we will ever be good in set piece defending under Sarri.

I’m happy to make that sacrifice though if Sarri can get us playing good football next season, also signing a top class CB would help too.

David Luiz is a liability in back 4 and I wouldn’t be surprised if we suddenly become a lot more solid defensively if we signed say a Van Dijk. A defender with leadership skills but also decent at distribution.

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I've never been a fan of zonal marking however, it makes sense when we have a small team. Man to man would leave us with at least one or two mismatches against most prem teams. 

Even the tall players we have arent exactly colossal in the air, Alonso, Giroud, Rudiger and Luiz are good, but Christiansen, RLC, and Barkley are not very aggressive, and all the rest are under 6 foot. 

I also think we need to stop giving away needless free kicks, especially against teams like Burnley. 

Just another area of the team that sarri needs to improve. 

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agree back post is a problem but imv the 'pure' zonal Sarri tactic doesn;t make any logical sense cos even the bigger players are standing still when the ball comes in - if its a decent delivery we are stuffed.

Anyone who doesn't agree take a look at last 10 goals we have let in from set pieces.

BTW, Barclay can head the ball but he can't tackle and avoids conflict, take a look at the Prague at home game - he is not a holding midfielder in any way IMV.  

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On 26/04/2019 at 19:56, Strider6003 said:

Didn't the zonal marking come more into being because of the ruling that refs were going to clamp down on defenders tugging the attackers shirts?

Valid point, but just about every corner play has some players grapple each other, and how many penalties have been given this season for grappling? The VAR thing may change that a bit, when slow motion it, anything looked like a penalty. But I doubt FIFA or FA want see 2-3 penalties a game for grappling or shirt pulling in set pieces, and to me the attacking players are just as guilty as defenders. Grappling or tugging are just part of the game, not a reason to abandon man marking. Everyone marks his man, teams in the botton half could do it, there's no reasons why can't we do that properly again?

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44 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Valid point, but just about every corner play has some players grapple each other, and how many penalties have been given this season for grappling? The VAR thing may change that a bit, when slow motion it, anything looked like a penalty. But I doubt FIFA or FA want see 2-3 penalties a game for grappling or shirt pulling in set pieces, and to me the attacking players are just as guilty as defenders. Grappling or tugging are just part of the game, not a reason to abandon man marking. Everyone marks his man, teams in the botton half could do it, there's no reasons why can't we do that properly again?

I agree that is it rarely enforced but within the game makes it an area of uncertainty for the players.

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