Warrior

[yogic]

They say be aware, a warrior has the ability to rise from the dead and strike with vengeance.

Through many sets of eyes, Chelsea looked dead with the departure of Jose, fracture to Terry, lack of goals, lack of form, red cards and the appointment of a certain Avram Grant, whom majority didn?t know and didn?t want to get to know. But the players are warriors, they come back from injury and start games, come out of operations, wear masks and forget about their cracks .. and most importantly rise from the speculative death and prove the world wrong.

I could only watch the first half, but it was enough to show me that the team was playing with spirit. Im still not certain about Grant, but what I am certain about is that the players are back and are playing with spirit - Jose's departure is now put away in the past and the players will fight for everything.

Congratulations to Avram for pulling off an away win, to Terry and the players for rising to the occasion and getting us back to top spot in the group.

[BLUENUT]

We won this game in spite of Avram not beacuse of him. The players played for each other out there, not the manager!!

Terry is a warrior and his leadership is 2nd to none but during the game I thought he and our medical team got it wrong last night. Terry looked a shadow of himself when fit and was at fault for any decent chance Valencia had, I love him for it, but last night he was too brave for his own good. He played with his heart throughout, and that eventually was enough to get us the points. Thanks John your bravery got us through.

The players didn't celebrate either of the goals, and Didier seemed to mute his celebration. Was this some sort of a player protest?

Terry's reaction/body language with Avram at the end told it's own story. After celebration with our other warrior Drogba and all the other players, he gave the lamest of 'high 5's' to the manager without even looking in his direction as he walked off the pitch.

In the post match interview he said something along the lines of ' We're nearly at full strenght now, all we need is Lamp's back and we've got our full side'.

No mention of Ball-sack of Shev-oh-no!!!! Read into that what you will but I think that tells it's own story coming from our captain!! A captain who in the last 10 months has endured a horrific head injury in Cardiff, had a back operation, played most of the season with a broken toe and ended last season playing pumped up on pain killing injections.

Then played through the pain barrier with a fractured cheek-bone last night.

Ballack on the other hand was at the Oktoberfest, for those who don't know what it is, it's a beer festival in Germany!

I think that tell's it's own story, don't you?

[Pauly]

We won this game in spite of Avram not beacuse of him. The players played for each other out there, not the manager!!

what did you make of our first goal and in general joe's performance next to didier- looked all like managers direction to me.....

[BLUENUT]

Joe has had the shackles taken off theres no denying that, but too many tricks flicks and dragbacks for my liking, running down blind alley's and getting crowded out. He was at fault for their goal, easily disposessed on the halfway line. The ball just wasn't satying in their end off the pitch enough to releive pressure on the back four. Great pass for Drogba's goal, but he could have been given offisde for the one he knocked in. (He was off-side when Drogba knocked it forward).

The players reaction with the manager after the game said all it need to for me. No hugging, no carrying him around ala Jose. A slap on the hand from the skipper is all he received!

[abramovich]

" Mourinho was a great friend and a great manager. He moves on, we have to do that us a team as soon as possible, if not, we are going to find ourselves dwelling on it and we are going to be the ones to suffer."

John Terry in his postmatch interview at Mestalla

Players realize what needs to be done. Unfortunatelly some supporters still 'dwell on it".

[BLUENUT]

Whats done is done. They're rallying round for each other 'the team', not Avram.

Just my opinion from JT's reaction with his team mates then manager last night.

Perhaps they all had a dance to 'fiddler on the roof' in the dressing room but I just can't see it myself.

[loz]

I think it is a bit churlish to compare how the players react to grant when winning a game to how they reacted with Jose when he has only been in the job a matter of weeks.

Yes the relationship between JT, Lamps, Drogba and Jose had developed to the point when celebrating a good win was almost a case of 'my room is the seocnd on the left, no pressure' however that didn't happen overnight, at the start of his reign it was a little less speedos and a little more baggy swim shorts.

It is preposterous to expect there to be the same feeling of togetherness in this short space of time.

[Guest]

I think it is a bit churlish to compare how the players react to grant when winning a game to how they reacted with Jose when he has only been in the job a matter of weeks.

Yes the relationship between JT, Lamps, Drogba and Jose had developed to the point when celebrating a good win was almost a case of 'my room is the seocnd on the left, no pressure' however that didn't happen overnight, at the start of his reign it was a little less speedos and a little more baggy swim shorts.

It is preposterous to expect there to be the same feeling of togetherness in this short space of time.

Fair point Loz, but do you think the players will ever respect and feel same admiration for Grant that it appears most did for Jose?

[midlandblue]

and while your at it any cahnce of the winning lottery numbers for the weekend.

[loz]

Probably not Qaz however as midlandblue alludes to we can't say for sure but even if they don't I can't say that I care all that much as long as we get results. There have been plenty of aloof managers in the past who have been successful.

[Chippy]

Probably not Qaz however as midlandblue alludes to we can't say for sure but even if they don't I can't say that I care all that much as long as we get results. There have been plenty of aloof managers in the past who have been successful.

Got to agree with this, Jose as is blatently obvious is a different personality to Grant, Tactile with the players and that is his choice, the players have to get used to a manager before that sort of comaradary sets in if it ever does.

I couldn't give a flying F**k myself as I would rather a lame high five after a 1-2 away win at valencia than a good kiss and cuddle after 1-1 draw at home to Rosenbourg.

no reflection on Jose as a manager just on the way things were going.

[BLUENUT]

no reflection on Jose as a manager just on the way things were going.

Drogba was the difference. It'd have been 1-1 without his winner.

He was injured for the home game and we had to pick the Shevchecko-ver-the-bar - same goes for Avram's last 2 games when we never scored. Can't blame jose for having his No1 striker injured and forced to play a forward he didn't sign.

[abramovich]

no reflection on Jose as a manager just on the way things were going.

Drogba was the difference. It'd have been 1-1 without his winner.

He was injured for the home game and we had to pick the Shevchecko-ver-the-bar - same goes for Avram's last 2 games when we never scored. Can't blame jose for having his No1 striker injured and forced to play a forward he didn't sign.

I don't get it.

Well if it all depends on just one player missing then what's the point of having a better manager? And if Grant is good enough to get the results with the team he hasn't assembled and only worked for two weeks with, then who needs Mourinho? I personally think that Chelsea played at Mestalla Morinho's way and Grant himself admitted beforehand that due to lack of time

the team was preparing using their old exercises, no changes or anything, which makes sense under the circumstances.

So when Chelsea win it's because of Jose(even though he's not there anymore) and despite Grant, but when they lose, it's the other way around. Interesting.

As for the "striker forced on him" i seem to remember JM quote at the time of Sheva's signing, where he claimed that Shevchenko was always one of his priority targets since he took over at Chelsea and what a great day it was for the club. Oddly enough i haven't noticed one of Roman's goons holding a gun to his head during the interview. Conveniently enough for The Special One though Shevchenko became 'Roman's signing' when it became obvious he was going to struggle. I wonder if that would have been the case if Shevchenko was an instant hit at the Bridge like Horseface at the OT or Henry at the Old Library. Probably not.

[Liam]

Got to agree with this, Jose as is blatently obvious is a different personality to Grant.

Agreed also. Indeed had Mourinho been in charge last night he probably would have found a way to take the pressure off the players as they celebrated the result.

[BLUENUT]

Abramovich, Do you think we'd have won that game or even scored with Sheva up front ? Drogba had a hand in both goals, we don't score when Sheva play's, simple as that. Drogba is a massive player for us, see the 'untouchables' thread where almost everyone else agree's!

I have not once said Jose should or is credited for the win, it's nice to see the players playing and showing some character again, how much is down to the current manager I couldn't say, but they played for each other which is a start.

I'm not even going to bother with the 'Jose signed/didn't sign Sheva' it's been argued to death. There are enough people on record stating Jose didn't sign him, that's good enough for me.

If you remember the 'quality of eggs' statement Jose made before he was pushed, he was refering to this situation. You can't replace cracking players ('scuse the pun) with lower grade ones. Sheva cannot replace Drogba! We know it, Jose knew it and it's not fair to say 'the way things were going under Jose' as if it was his fault we had a poor start to the season. We made enough chances against Rosenberg, it's not Jose's fault they were all missed, by our very own humpty dumpty-ko.

[abramovich]

Abramovich, Do you think we'd have won that game or even scored with Sheva up front ? Drogba had a hand in both goals, we don't score when Sheva play's, simple as that. Drogba is a massive player for us, see the 'untouchables' thread where almost everyone else agree's!

I have not once said Jose should or is credited for the win, it's nice to see the players playing and showing some character again, how much is down to the current manager I couldn't say, but they played for each other which is a start.

I'm not even going to bother with the 'Jose signed/didn't sign Sheva' it's been argued to death. There are enough people on record stating Jose didn't sign him, that's good enough for me.

If you remember the 'quality of eggs' statement Jose made before he was pushed, he was refering to this situation. You can't replace cracking players ('scuse the pun) with lower grade ones. Sheva cannot replace Drogba! We know it, Jose knew it and it's not fair to say 'the way things were going under Jose' as if it was his fault we had a poor start to the season. We made enough chances against Rosenberg, it's not Jose's fault they were all missed, by our very own humpty dumpty-ko.

No i don't think we would have won the match with Sheva instead of DD in the lineup but that's beside the point.

I was referring to your general line of posting that suggests that Jose is somehow blameless for Chelsea struggles but should be mentioned first when credit is being given for success. I love JM and respect his accomplishments with the club but not to the point where i'm blind to his flaws and there were many.

Who are these people that went on record saying Sheva was forced onto Mourinho? Do they by any chance work for The Sun, The Mirror or Daily Mail?

Who were those cracking players that we replaced by inferior new recruitments and why do you think Mourinho carries no responsibility for that? I also seem to remember Mourinho's famous comments in his first season that Chelsea will only buy a 2-3 players after the first season, and maybe one after the second because he wouldn't need any more improvements. Whatever happened to that great promise? I'm not going to even mention all the flops that Jose brought in the club despite having more money than all the opponents taken together. Interestingly, once Roman tightened the purse strings in the middle of JM's third season he suddenly became the bad guy and the reason for all the club problems.

Again, i'm not knocking Jose, he's been a fantastic manager for us and has done very well for the club, but he has had his share of mistakes and should be held accountable for them just as much as he gets praise for all the great stuff he brought.

One of the biggest tricks he managed to pull was to create a widespread belief that he somehow is the only manager out there capable of winning trophies with this underachieving club(in the past), this constantly meddling owner(supposedly) and this conveniently huge transfer budget(fact).

I do believe there are alternatives to Jose, in some ways inferior to him, in other ways better. But they're certainly out there.

[coombsie]

We won this game in spite of Avram not beacuse of him. The players played for each other out there, not the manager!!

Terry is a warrior and his leadership is 2nd to none but during the game I thought he and our medical team got it wrong last night. Terry looked a shadow of himself when fit and was at fault for any decent chance Valencia had, I love him for it, but last night he was too brave for his own good. He played with his heart throughout, and that eventually was enough to get us the points. Thanks John your bravery got us through.

The players didn't celebrate either of the goals, and Didier seemed to mute his celebration. Was this some sort of a player protest?

Terry's reaction/body language with Avram at the end told it's own story. After celebration with our other warrior Drogba and all the other players, he gave the lamest of 'high 5's' to the manager without even looking in his direction as he walked off the pitch.

In the post match interview he said something along the lines of ' We're nearly at full strenght now, all we need is Lamp's back and we've got our full side'.

No mention of Ball-sack of Shev-oh-no!!!! Read into that what you will but I think that tells it's own story coming from our captain!! A captain who in the last 10 months has endured a horrific head injury in Cardiff, had a back operation, played most of the season with a broken toe and ended last season playing pumped up on pain killing injections.

Then played through the pain barrier with a fractured cheek-bone last night.

Ballack on the other hand was at the Oktoberfest, for those who don't know what it is, it's a beer festival in Germany!

I think that tell's it's own story, don't you?

I too picked up on the awful "body language" the players displayed to Grant last night.

JT and Joe Cole both WANTED to ignore/avoid him. Makelele tried to walk past him and Steve Clarke was trying to get away too.

The look on the players' faces said a lot too. They just do not want him here !!!!!

[jack h]

Abramovich, Do you think we'd have won that game or even scored with Sheva up front ? Drogba had a hand in both goals, we don't score when Sheva play's, simple as that. Drogba is a massive player for us, see the 'untouchables' thread where almost everyone else agree's!

I have not once said Jose should or is credited for the win, it's nice to see the players playing and showing some character again, how much is down to the current manager I couldn't say, but they played for each other which is a start.

I'm not even going to bother with the 'Jose signed/didn't sign Sheva' it's been argued to death. There are enough people on record stating Jose didn't sign him, that's good enough for me.

If you remember the 'quality of eggs' statement Jose made before he was pushed, he was refering to this situation. You can't replace cracking players ('scuse the pun) with lower grade ones. Sheva cannot replace Drogba! We know it, Jose knew it and it's not fair to say 'the way things were going under Jose' as if it was his fault we had a poor start to the season. We made enough chances against Rosenberg, it's not Jose's fault they were all missed, by our very own humpty dumpty-ko.

Thats right its all Sheva's fualt

[BLUENUT]

I was referring to your general line of posting that suggests that Jose is somehow blameless for Chelsea struggles

In the big picture what really are the 'struggles' we should lay on Jose? Not winning all 4 trophies last season? Finishing 2nd in the league to a side who had an unbelieveable season, or being knocked out on penalties in the semi-final of the Champions league? We won the other 2 competitions we were in!

Lack of entertainment? Well I'm in the 'I'd rather beat Arsenal at home 1-0 camp' than the 'we lost 3-2 with their sub's hat-rick in the last 10 mins camp' I'm afraid. (that game still hurts when I think about it!) Some say they were not entertained enough by us winning 6 trophies in 3 years. I find that incredible! No, more to the point, arrogant, like winning matches is not enough. The entertainment label was something genterated by the media because they found it boring that Chelsea were so capable of winning games and not conceding goals. We blew the opposition away! What's more entertaining, going to the new Wembley's first FA final and winning it, or being cavalier like Spurs were at the bridge and getting knocked out in the 1/4 final. We're fans still lacking entertainment in both those Spurs FA cup games last year? Who were happiest, us or Spurs fans?

I personally think Jose had his hands tied with a transfer policy in summer which is why we have signed a majority of free transfers. Perhaps the writing was on the wall. The first 2 years we played with a 4-3-3 formation and were sucessful, the 2nd year we played with the same formation and were back to back Champions, remember they always say it's harder to retain it that it is to win it in the 1st place, just see Man united performances this season for an example!!! A 3rd year, well we were only beaten in the league by Manu who had an exceptional season. Funnily enough we changed our formation last year to accomodate Ballack and Shevchenko, players I don't think Jose signed, I'll explain below.

I'm not going over old ground with Ballack/Addidas/Kenyon thats been argued to death, but I'll mention Sheva because you seem to thing I have gather my opinion from the gutter press. I do read the papers yes, but tend to pick and choose who I believe or try to read between the lines.

Ruud Gullit on last weeks SKY sports didn't seem to think Shevchenko was signed by Jose, agreeing with him was a panel of other guests, including Wilkins, another ex-chelsea man. Bobby Robson also wrote an artical a couple of weeks back, stating his opinion, that Sheva was not signed by Jose, they both worked together at Barcalona remember! No fact's just other people in football agreeing

But this is the clincher, it was admitted on CHELSEA TV last week. An Italian media person (don't know his name) but he get's on Neil Barnetts show quite a bit said that there was a meeting called at Stamford Bridge, when Jose was told Chelsea were signing Shevchenko. They said that this is where Jose could have said he didn't want him, which you will argue and agree with, but he didn't, so you will say he condoned the signing. In my opinion a manager goes to the chairman/owner and asks to sign a player, not the other way around! Jose 'could have said no' according to them, I doubt that was the case, remember this is 'the Chelsea Channel, the channel Roman watches'. So a meeting was called and Chelsea told their manager they were signing a player, not the other way round!!

Boardroom struggles, yeah they were all Jose's fault, for not wanting directors, chairman trying to run his dressing room. He is the football manager afterall. His 'struggle' with the Chairmans ego was his only struggle at Chelsea, and his downfall!

Transfers - Jose made some bad transfers, also made some great ones. Drogba, Essien, Carvalho were all his and all played well last night. We probably wouldn't have won without those three. (But I'm still not crediting the victory to Jose). The 3 players we lost last year were Gallas (Ballack took his shirt and his pay pissed all over the little pay rise he wanted) Duff and Eidur who couldn't be guaranteed playing time with the arrival of Ballack and Sheva and a change of formation!

I grudgingly agree there is life after Jose, and the players are realising that, but they are not Avram's boys is all I'm trying to saying, and they're playing for themselves, the club, the fans but not the manager. Well done to the players for last night performance and coming through a difficult couple of weeks.

[abramovich]

So i gather Ballack was Roman's signing,too. Abramovich also got rid of all the crowd favourites and replaced them with overpaid big name primadonnas that proceded to undermine the noble and ever suffering Special One who absolutely had no say in transfer decisions in the club. Come on Bluenut, get real.

Wasn't it Mourinho who spilled the story on Gallas' threat to score an own goal if he wasn't allowed to leave? At no time during last summer it was even suggested that Guddy and Duff's departure was given a green light against Jose's wishes. Were Kezman,Jarosik,Maniche,Del Boy,Boulahrouz etc brought in by Roman,too? And even if Sheva was,in fact, RA's buy how can one flop tear down the whole structure? It's not as if Shevchenko was a team cancer or something, he kept it to himself and never complained.

Abramovich should share his portion of the blame for the collapse in a manager - owner relationship. I don't know what was the last straw that led to this debacle but it was absolutely stupid move to fire your manager several matches into the new campaign and disrespectful to dispatch him in such a manner after what he had done for the club. Having said that in my honest opinion i'd very surprised to see Mourinho last longer than he did at Chelsea in any other club. His conservative style of playing, controvercial outspoken nature and massive ego may and probably will get him in trouble with many other club owners/presidents in the future. I just don't feel he is 'long term building' kind of manager like Fergie or Wenger and staying in the same organization longer than two-three years isn't his cup of tea,so to speak.

As for Jose hands being tied in a transfer market, let me ask you this: do you really believe that Mourinho should complain about the quality of his 'eggs' after spending way more than anybody else and having the deepest squad in terms of quality?

Fat Rafa may be a w**ker but there was some truth in what he said when he congratulated Roman, not Jose on winning CFC trophies.

Mourinho had no excuse to moan about the quality of the squad players. No team has two equally matched squads in terms of quality, and the closest thing to it was our own club in recent years. Every team suffers through injuries during the season but he always made it look like he does the impossible job on a shoestring budget. Enough of it already.

[c3blu]

I have to agree the body language from the players last night proved to me they have no respect for Grant and that they won for themselves, they certainly celebrated by themselves.

I will have to dissagree with abramavich's conclusion about the signing of Shevchenko, and say that i believe both him and Ballack ARE cancers at the club and should be cut out immediatly.

Ballack is lazy and Sheva is finished(or at least just not a prem player). Other players will look at them in the dressing room, knowing what they are earning compared to what they offer on the field and it will cause friction.

Jose has gone, lets get in a new manager the players respect (and hopefully the board will like and leave to do his job)and lets get on with winning football matches and hopefully a trophy come may.

[Liam]

Bluenut and Abramovich

Brilliant arguing of your position by each of you.*

This is a great place.

*Abramovich is right, of course

[c3blu]

Liam, what in your opinion is abramovich right about?

Bluenut said:

The player's dont respect/like Grant, now none of us can know this for sure but from their celebrations the other night i'd have to agree.

JM did'nt sign Sheva, that is widely regarding in the sport as fact.

That this summer JM hands were tied in the transfer market, mainly because the board probably did'nt want to further fund a manager they were expecting to show the door(for reasons other than what he should be judged, results/trophies).

Now i know bluenut is flogging a dead horse in his loyalty to JM because nothing will change what has happened but it does surprise me how fickle some fans can be.

Let me also say that i know bluenut, and is loyalty to the club cant be questioned. The way the club is being run on the other hand can be questioned.

With the exception of Lampard and Belletti that was probably our best team, a team any of us could have picked and the credit for victory belongs to the players.

Flip-Floping fans quickly forget after a good result midweek how un-organised the side looked against Fulham the weekend where we had 6 different corner takers(including Maka), a situation that would never have occured under JM. A manager meticulous in his preperation.

I think what we'd all like to see, as i've said before is a decent manager brought into the club who the players like and respect and then leave him to do his job.

Somebody is bound to come back with 'its Romans money and you cant expect him to spend it without having any say'. Well i'm sorry but while I like Roman, and watching him the other night he was like anyone of us fans. He has to realise that the say he has in transfers is limited to the sanctioning of the deal the manager wants to do, and not what deals should be done.

[BLUENUT]

The things is Abramovich is that you think Jose wasn't good in terms of play/players for Chelsea, and I like going to games watching us win. The entertainment bit is what I can't get my head around for some people. I understand Jose methods were more mechanical, but we did play as a well oiled machine under him, some liked his style, others didn't, but you can't really say it wasn't entertaining.

Wenger and Fergie have made good and bad signings. They have sold their better and popular players ala Van Horse-face, and Henry but still manage to keep their chairman happy with their longer-term goals. Perhaps Jose or Roman didn't have the patience. Jose did make some good signings, some bad, but all managers do, even the best ones, for all the 'best players he sold and sh*t ones he signed he still won more than any other manager we've had. Jose did say he didn't sign 'galacticos when he came to the club, but we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding Ballack and Shevchenko. We put in our best or most determined performance of the season on Wednesday night and they were nowhere near the side, which is the best place for them at the moment. As someone mentions above, their wages have blown away the structure (if there was one) and they sit tying up their boots next to players who earn half of what they do, and give more to the cause. I didn't use the word 'cancer' but lets face it, it can't can't make for a happy dressing room when Terry was waiting on a new deal and Lamps has yet to sign.

I understand what you're saying about Jose and his 'whirl-wind' style, perhaps he wouldn't have been here 4 years down the line, but that's what I was hoping. We have one of the richest men in the world owning the club. He went out and got one of the best managers in the world, a match made in heaven. Trophy after trophy, we finally won the league and people were talking of a Chelsea dynasty, we had our own Wenger/Fergie ready to cement our pages in the football histroy books, why do you think Liverpool have been so scared for years and keep going on about history, because we were making it, and elbowed them out of the way in the process. Our loss is their gain!

Unfortunately, we are Chelsea football club and our history tell's us not to get too comfortable because being Chelsea were are going to blow it at one stage or another. And sadly for us that's what our short time under Jose is now, history. The only comfort for someone who respected what he did for the club, the only consolation, is that he will go down as our most sucessfull manager ever.

What I'm trying to say is that when that final whistle went on Wednesday night, there was no special one sliding down the line ruining a ?1500 suit. There was no fingers on lips, sushing the opposing fans. There was not hug for JT and Cech. There was no punching the air. There was no early handshake for the bench. There was no Jose, and I've got to be honest I really missed him. No Jose, in his place we had the saggy-eyed, un-inspiring Avram

Back to original subject of the post:

I can't take to Avram Grant yet, (not sure I ever will) and I'm not sure how the players have, but by judging by their body-language on Wednesday it's clear a few of them haven't taken to him either. I'd like to say I hope they do, but can't. I want someone in who can do the job, long term. Avram is not the man, he hasn't even got a coaching badge. However if Romans record of firing manager who finish 2nd is anything to go by, he'll be out before the start of next seasdon cos we're not winning the league under Avram, thats for sure!

note:

JOSE DIDN'T SIGN BALLACK AND SHEVA

I do agree it's time to move on, there's no way back is there?......I just don't think AG is the man.

[Liam]

Liam, what in your opinion is abramovich right about?

I particularly like this

I was referring to your general line of posting that suggests that Jose is somehow blameless for Chelsea struggles but should be mentioned first when credit is being given for success. I love JM and respect his accomplishments with the club but not to the point where i'm blind to his flaws and there were many.

and this

One of the biggest tricks he managed to pull was to create a widespread belief that he somehow is the only manager out there capable of winning trophies with this underachieving club(in the past), this constantly meddling owner(supposedly) and this conveniently huge transfer budget(fact).

And his general tenor being that there is life after Mourinho and it's time to move on.

By the way has anybody questioned Bluenut's allegience to the club?