Habitual Offenders

[Dorset]

Funny how a home draw against ManU can look so different in the colder light of a Monday morning when only an afternoon ago you’re warmed by a home record-saving goal from Kalou. Thankfully, depression hasn’t fully set in early doors, as Big Ron might have said, but it’s just that we tend to view the loss of a couple of points differently now compared to when he used to manage the Red Devils and it seems that not much has changed on their side of the tracks in the ensuing years.

I’m not talking about results, as nobody can deny them their continued and improved upon success, mores the pity. No, what disappoints and disheartens the outside observer has to be the fact that they do tend to revel in their earthiness and if that translates into grubbing around in their own dirt then I wouldn’t disagree with the analogy. Alright, none of us are immune from a bit of navel gazing at times and in Chelsea’s case we’ve grubbed around with the best [or worst] of them over the years when it comes to the badlands of modern football, whether it be attitude or tackle. Under Jose we might even have done our fair share of revelling in it as well, but not now, not under Felipe, and not under the new regime of respect for referees.

If ever that new found moral fortitude was to be tested it was on Sunday and we passed our test with flying colours, whereas our opponents failed dismally. What depresses me is not so much that we will receive little or no credit for at least trying to make an effort, but that the Media will gloss over the difference between the two sides in this respect [excuse the pun] and even go so far as to acknowledge United’s achievement through combative play. Matters are made worse because their fines will be paltry and their chief combatants, Messrs Ferguson and Ferdinand, will breeze along unrepentantly displaying tight-lipped annoyance at the unfair treatment dished out to them on the day by a biased [implied] referee. Apologists for them, such as Andy Gray, will back up the ’not a bad tackle from either side’ argument whilst pooh-poohing the niggling nature of those delivered by Scholes and Berbatov and ignoring altogether the constant questioning [by all and sundry in red] of Mike Riley’s decisions.

So it appears that, at least as far as these two are concerned, the Respect Campaign is something to be given lippy disservice to on the pitch and tight-lipped, grudging servitude to off it and all the while myopic hacks like Patrick Collins (by the way, brilliant hatchet job on him by Lofty in the JT Cleared thread) also get away with total disrespect for the efforts being made by the authorities to improve the situation by writing complete gibberish on the subject. Still, there were a couple of priceless moments to be had during the afternoon…

Firstly, we were treated to the sight of Ferdinand putting on his angry face at completely the wrong time and place and causing total confusion in the process. Of course, had it been a time of his own choosing it would have been at the end of ninety minutes with a victory under his belt, whereupon he could head off to the nearest camera to wave his fists and get his grimacing mug into our faces at home in a warrior-like act of defiance and in perceived full justification for what had gone before. Instead of which, after Kalou had stolen his puffed up thunder by equalising minutes earlier, he was left to vent his spleen on poor old Mike, and you shouldn’t really be doing that these days, should you Rio? To be fair, in the light of this game, I’d take a tip from JT if I were you, because you know it makes sense and it could be a good career move, internationally speaking.

Then, talking of puffed up, there was the incident in the away team’s dugout with Fergie and a balloon. Sadly not as newsworthy for the NOTW as it sounds, but nevertheless you had to laugh when it went off and the shipyard hard man jumped up like a pleasantly surprised Julian Clary. Kitted out in his AIG gear, Old Red Nose is obviously auditioning for the oldies remake version of the Die Hard films. It has to be said that Bruce Willis has very little to fear in terms of competition here and, as in the case of his captain, the only thing that looks remotely likely to die hard in the future for them are old habits.

[andy]

Well said Dorest.. in fact it gets on my wick this Terry bashing over the years.. maybe I got my blue coloured specks on but as far as I can tell (and being season ticket holder so see it first hand) he is probably one of the most respectful players I have seen................ enter the media types, opposition fans and talkscouse and all of the sudden :P B)

[sweet waffle]

Great post Dorset.

And here's the balloon clip for those who haven't yet seen it.

[clubhappy]

Superb analysis. You should send that to Paddy Crerand at Manyoooo T.V. , the most biased c**t in the universe .

[Mike O]

Whilst agreeing that United have easily been the worst serial-offenders in the championing of 'respect' over the last decade or two, we should be careful about saying we came through with 'flying colours'.

There's a reason people don't like us, in fact many, but here are a couple. One - we have a captain happy to champion the respect campaign in one breath, and then rugby tackle an opponent who's faster than him in the next. Almost Italian in its cynicism, hypocrisy and respectlessness.

Secondly, we as fans don't acknowledge problems like that. We just defend it as boringly as the next crowd of myopic meat-heads.

However, I reckon help is at hand in the guise of big Phil. Not since my beloved Luca have we had a manager who seems to be so totally averse at entering into ref-slagging or opponent-slagging. Or one who is simultaneously quite adept at giving his own team a hard time.

Maybe under guidance, we can help the game regain the sort of dignity that Ferguson has kicked to death for 20 years.

[Mr Chelsea]

great write up Dorset, i look forward to the next one

but as usual the mancs get away with it, just a piddly £25 grand fine, i dont think it matters that in fergies words there were no bad tackles

the fact that the ref (appaling as he was) deemed it fit to issue 7 yellow cards for there unruly behaviour and each time surrounded by a bunch of gits wearing red pointing fingers (so much for respect)

the ref bottled it at the end by not giving the free kick and sending ferdydandy off, instead choosing to blow the final whistle, leading to an altercation led by the manc skipper (i cant grow a moustach neville) where the fergie had to come on to the pitch to get his players go down the tunnel, thus leading to chelsea having time to remove all female stewards out of the way

and the FA have done nothing!

lets wait until chelsea, arsenal or luckypool kick off at the ref, and get more than 5 bookings and listen to fergie in his usual hypocritical style say if it was us the FA would throw the book at us

[andy]

There's a reason people don't like us, in fact many, but here are a couple. One - we have a captain happy to champion the respect campaign in one breath, and then rugby tackle an opponent who's faster than him in the next. Almost Italian in its cynicism, hypocrisy and respectlessness.

Secondly, we as fans don't acknowledge problems like that. We just defend it as boringly as the next crowd of myopic meat-heads.

what has Terry's challenge on Jo got to do with respect for the ref?? Terry I think is treated very unjustly in this respect.. he has never done the vain popping bit like ... Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney.. it is not just that it is in such an aggressive manor. . He is entitled to talk to the ref and if at distance or in a noise stadium, he might shout.. but to my knowledge he has never looked like he wants to tear the blokes head off, even when unjustly sent off twice..

oh and happy to be a meathead :(

[dkw]

what has Terry's challenge on Jo got to do with respect for the ref?? Terry I think is treated very unjustly in this respect.. he has never done the vain popping bit like ... Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney.. it is not just that it is in such an aggressive manor. . He is entitled to talk to the ref and if at distance or in a noise stadium, he might shout.. but to my knowledge he has never looked like he wants to tear the blokes head off, even when unjustly sent off twice..

oh and happy to be a meathead :(

agree with you andy, what has terrys foul got to do with respect to the ref? it was a footballing incident, one that ahppens dozens of times any weekend of football. so with that kind of thinking is a player moving 4 or 5 yards up the pitch at a throw in/free kick disrespecting the ref?

[loz]

I think JT let himself down last season with his behaviour towards refs (although not as badly as the media would have people believe) and is now slowly putting things right.

However I have to admit that if we had picked up 7 bookings from the ref in exactly the same circumstances as Utd did on Sunday I wouldn't have been too happy - some of them were very soft decisions.

[PloKoon13]

what has Terry's challenge on Jo got to do with respect for the ref?? Terry I think is treated very unjustly in this respect.. he has never done the vain popping bit like ... Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney.. it is not just that it is in such an aggressive manor. . He is entitled to talk to the ref and if at distance or in a noise stadium, he might shout.. but to my knowledge he has never looked like he wants to tear the blokes head off, even when unjustly sent off twice..

oh and happy to be a meathead ;)

Yeah, look at Rio Ferdinand and Wayne Rooney every time a decision went against Man Ure... they were in the ref's face like anything.

Terry gets bizarrely sent off and he looks bemused, owns the City fans and respectfully walks off.

[c3blu]

The way Rooney tried to get J Cole booked after a reckless challenge was a disgrace yet A Cole kept him on the pitch moments later after a similiar challange and nothing is said.

Rooney is a cu*t and his 'ld women likes it up the dirt without any grease. Especially from anybody who is is'nt a multimillionaire footballer who has to pay some toothless old shtoink bag to get laid.... i mean we know your scouse but its a big wide world out there with your money surely someone is willing to forget your scouse????

[ArtDeco]

Good stuff Dorset - Terry is always a class act in respect to referees. It was atrocious how many yellows United players got for dissent.

[loz]

Good stuff Dorset - Terry is always a class act in respect to referees. It was atrocious how many yellows United players got for dissent.

Can you stop using us as a billboard for your blog please

[Mike O]

Hmmm...

Gents, the fact is that Terry hasn't been a saint with refs during his career. And my reading of the 'respect' campaign is that it's also about respect for the game. Rugby-tackling an opponent because he's faster than you disrespects the game.

I stand by my first point that we've got a long way to go before we're as bad as united and reassert my hope that Scolari will bring a lot of dignity and respect to the league as a whole.

You can still love someone whilst acknowledging that they've got one or two faults, you know? Ask any parent.

[Scott]

Maybe JT's just sick of getting dodgy red cards while that punk Rio get's away with just about everything. That would piss me off too.

[Dorset]

The disciplinary yardsticks are the same for everybody, Mike, and no matter how many images you produce of JT berating officials all I’m saying is that, since the Respect Campaign started, there is clear evidence that our captain is taking heed. Professional fouls, such as the blocking off of players or rugby tackles, are totally different beasts and the jungle is so full of them they have become accepted as part and parcel of the game.

Howard Webb didn’t give Vidic a yellow card for blocking Torres because he was being disrespectful to the game. Indeed, had he thought that [or had he been directed to go further in such circumstances] he would have given a straight red. Now you may have wanted him to, just as [presumably] you’re in agreement with Halsey’s straight red for JT in a similar situation, but if you feel that that is what this Respect Campaign is all about [or should be about] I’m afraid to say you’re gonna be as grumpy as ever over the whole issue.

Believe it or not, one of the best respecters of referees I’ve seen over the years was Chopper Harris. Block tackles, rugby tackles, waist high tackles, you name it he dished it out, but he always walked away from a refs telling off or carding with that same serene look on his face that told everybody he was just doing his job, rightly or wrongly. Nowadays players don’t take their punishment like that, they prefer to scream their innocence with exaggerated fury and nobody does it better than Neville, Rooney or Ferdinand. This Respect Campaign will, hopefully, get these players [and the likes of Ashley Cole too] to back off, quieten down, and just get the job done, much as Chopper used to. Rewriting the rules, as Halsey tried to do in effect, will have to wait for another day because there is a time and a place for it and it shouldn’t be attempted by officials as if it were merely on a whim.

[Mike O]

The disciplinary yardsticks are the same for everybody, Mike, and no matter how many images you produce of JT berating officials all I’m saying is that, since the Respect Campaign started, there is clear evidence that our captain is taking heed. Professional fouls, such as the blocking off of players or rugby tackles, are totally different beasts and the jungle is so full of them they have become accepted as part and parcel of the game.

I think you're right on JT turning a corner on this.

I just think it's a little early in the day to start saying that we're saints. There will still be a large group of onlookers who will judge our reputation, for instance, by our player's behaviour at the CL final, in which JT, Maka, Joe Cole and Drogba - to name but a third of the team - behaved like idiots in front of the ref and his assistants and had me, for one, cringing with embarrassment.

Let's hope this season our record speaks for itself, as it's started to do. Just don't expect the wider reputation to be affected until a good year of 'twat-free' behaviour has passed.

And that does include, I'm afraid, rugby tackling...

[Essien's Strike]

well the sun ran a 2 page story on man u's 7 card disrespect fiesta, and were very strong in lambasting the FA for only fining them the cursory £25,000 automatic fine and nothing else. At least its not a load of chelsea players being slated for disrespect this time so i have to say well done to the lads, we kept our noses clean while this time man u sullied themselves in the press.

still, everyone except man u fans knows that fergie will give it all the lip when some other team does anything disrespectful but pretends ignorance when his team do it. hes well known for it.

[jack h]

still, everyone except man u fans knows that fergie will give it all the lip when some other team does anything disrespectful but pretends ignorance when his team do it. hes well known for it.

he did it tonight in the boro game. he was having a go at their player for not going off and protesting to the ref, completly ignoring the fact that they do it more than anyone

[loz]

As much as I generally welcome the pursuit of better discipline and respect in the game I do feel the A needs to get its priorities right and focus on clamping down on really dangerous play before it concentrates on lippy adolescents (or why not do both at the same time)

Don't get me wrong I get embarrassed when I see players surrounding the ref, be that player Ferdinand, Carragher, Drogba or Terry (or many others) but it pales into insignificance when you see an incident like the Pogatez's tackle in the League Cup tie tonight (which may have shattered a 19 year old kid's leg) or the Danny Guthrie incident against Hull (or ones in the past from the likes of Gerrard and Essien and, once again, many others).

For me it is time that this idea of having a statutory 3 match ban or a straight red should be well and truly thrown out of the window and every red card should be examined and punished on its own merits. A red card or a professional foul should probably receive a 3 match ban but a red card for a foul that is violent should merit a far heftier punishment. I should maybe clarify that I don't mean that if a player breaks another player's leg he should necessarily be banned for the length of time that the player is out for (which is an idea that some have floated) as I feel that that is too simplistic and can lead to excessive bans that are uncalled for. Where a player is sent off or a heinous foul their punishment should not be based on the damage they caused but by the intent and recklessness of the challenge.

For example I think the likes of Guthrie and Pogatez should receive far lengthier bans for their tackles in recent weeks than, or example, Martin Taylor should have received for his tackle on Eduardo as although Eduardo has been out for a long time (and probably will be out for quite a while longer) I don't believe Taylor's tackle was malicious in the way Pogatez and Guthrie's were.

[jack h]

Loz ive only seen the Pogotez tackle once from and that was from an angle behind pogotez but i don't see what was so bad, it wasn't two footed and from what i could tell he went through the ball but like i said ive only seen it once.

Edited September 23, 2008 by jack h

[loz]

Loz ive only seen the Pogotez tackle once from and that was from an angle behind pogotez but i don't see what was so bad, it wasn't two footed and from what i could tell he went through the ball but like i said ive only seen it once.

I saw it on a stream and the quality was iffy but from what I saw it looked liked a terrible challenge.

However even if it wasn't the point is a more general one anyway rather than specifically about any challenge - it, and the Guthrie one, were just examples.

[ArtDeco]

I agree with Loz - while only one foot made contact, both feet were studs up when he left his feet.

This the type of "ball pretext" tackle the EPL needs to crack down on: where defenders tackle with the force to blow out someone's legs, which is grossly disproportional to the force needed to knock away the ball/steal it.

Edited due to even more spamming - running out of chances ArtDEco

[Dorset]

As much as I generally welcome the pursuit of better discipline and respect in the game I do feel the A needs to get its priorities right and focus on clamping down on really dangerous play before it concentrates on lippy adolescents (or why not do both at the same time)

Don't get me wrong I get embarrassed when I see players surrounding the ref, be that player Ferdinand, Carragher, Drogba or Terry (or many others) but it pales into insignificance when you see an incident like the Pogatez's tackle in the League Cup tie tonight (which may have shattered a 19 year old kid's leg) or the Danny Guthrie incident against Hull (or ones in the past from the likes of Gerrard and Essien and, once again, many others).

For me it is time that this idea of having a statutory 3 match ban or a straight red should be well and truly thrown out of the window and every red card should be examined and punished on its own merits. A red card or a professional foul should probably receive a 3 match ban but a red card for a foul that is violent should merit a far heftier punishment. I should maybe clarify that I don't mean that if a player breaks another player's leg he should necessarily be banned for the length of time that the player is out for (which is an idea that some have floated) as I feel that that is too simplistic and can lead to excessive bans that are uncalled for. Where a player is sent off or a heinous foul their punishment should not be based on the damage they caused but by the intent and recklessness of the challenge.

For example I think the likes of Guthrie and Pogatez should receive far lengthier bans for their tackles in recent weeks than, or example, Martin Taylor should have received for his tackle on Eduardo as although Eduardo has been out for a long time (and probably will be out for quite a while longer) I don't believe Taylor's tackle was malicious in the way Pogatez and Guthrie's were.

I couldn’t agree with you more, Loz, and in an effort to clarify my viewpoint on what Mike said earlier about rugby tacking, here is the real distinction between these vicious incidents, the cynical foul and whole the respect issue. Tackles like Guthrie’s are premeditated and malicious, taking them above and beyond the current three match ban in the eyes of every right thinking football fan. However, and here comes the admission of guilt and total honesty for you Mike…

I have no problem whatsoever with JT’s block/rugby tackle/cynical foul, call it what you will, because we all know it’s against the rules and there are rules in place to deal with such infringements. You commit this foul once and you get a yellow card, you do it again you get a second one and leave the field. Nothing wrong with that as far as I’m concerned, as we all know the score, you, me, JT and as far back to Chopper if you want to look at the consistency aspect.

Now there may be those in the game who don’t think much of that stance and disagree with it for any number reasons. For instance, Patrick Collins doesn’t mind anybody putting a block in unless it’s the captain of England and then, for some reason known only to himself and thousands of Chelsea fans, it becomes a heinous crime punishable by character assassination in print. Personally, I think he has serious issues to address, as does Mark Halsey who also doesn’t like the England captain’s defending and takes it upon himself to right this terrible wrong by rewriting FA rules on the spot, much to Keith Hackett’s despairing displeasure.

Sympathising with these individuals for one moment [believe me it is difficult] and you have no alternative but to advocate a stiffer penalty for the cynical block. The only way is up, leaving a situation where the red card is issued immediately, first infringement or not, and off the player goes. Now I don’t know about you, but, whilst that sort of rule change would go down well with many, for me the offence equates with the cynical shirt tug, the cynical push and the cynical foot-in [plus arms quickly raised] tackle that always seems to dispossess the opponent when he’s on a decent run through your defence.

So, applying the new [immediate red card] doctrine right across the board seems not only fair, but also the only sensible course of action to take - why wouldn’t you want to do otherwise? Well, the answer to that question is obvious to everybody who wants to see a game of 11-a-side football and not a 5-a-side match from halftime onwards. In reality, the radical rule changes would not be sensible at all and the referees, who have a difficult enough job as it is, would be treated with far less respect than they have at the moment in circumstances where they’d become no more than wartime correspondents in the post match post mortem …â€I counted them [twenty-two] out and I counted them [fourteen] back.â€

Heaven knows how much mouthing off would go on as they all went off and, somewhat ironically, this in itself would be the very first blot on the Premiership landscape that the authorities sought to remove when bringing in the Respect Campaign in the first place. I’m guessing that the panel that sat in judgement on JT and Halsey last week saw all this writing on the wall, scrubbing it off quickly before anybody saw it by sending the loose cannon ref down a few divisions. Out of sight, out of mind, you might say, except that, all too predictably, cretins like Collins kept the pot boiling with his inanities. He above all other hacks at the present time confirms the fact that, just as every village has its idiot, so does the Fourth Estate.

[PloKoon13]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/22032008/4/f...ef-respect.html