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As bad as Maradona and Suarez?


Backbiter

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Handled the ball on the line against Ghana in the world cup to stop a definite goal.

I know that's what is being referred to, but his actions were punished by an existing rule that he was likely aware of. 3 years ago (I think) we drew 4-4 to Aston Villa around Christmas. Ashley handled the ball on the line in the last minute, was red carded, and a penalty (that was converted) was given to Aston Villa. Does this mean that Ashley is a cheat as well?

Edited by ace
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I know that's what is being referred to, but his actions were punished by an existing rule that he was likely aware of. 3 years ago (I think) we drew 4-4 to Aston Villa around Christmas. Ashley handled the ball on the line in the last minute, was red carded, and a penalty (that was converted) was given to Aston Villa. Does this mean that Ashley is a cheat as well?

Erm, yes. In that case yes, it was cheating. Doesnt matter if its deemed to be professional or not, its still cheating. I have said for ages I hate seeing the way certain things have now become acceptable in football under the banner "Professional foul". Its cheating, plain and simple.

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Erm, yes. In that case yes, it was cheating. Doesnt matter if its deemed to be professional or not, its still cheating. I have said for ages I hate seeing the way certain things have now become acceptable in football under the banner "Professional foul". Its cheating, plain and simple.

Fair enough. I don't quite see it that way, but agree to disagree.

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Handling the ball on the line ain't cheating it is a natural reaction and they hope to get away with ...... actually that is cheating isnt it.

Persistent cheats I dont like

I quite like Gronks outrageous dive Tuesday night, cheating like that is too funny; the ref clearly wanted to card him but was laughing so had he couldnt find it.

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Erm, yes. In that case yes, it was cheating. Doesnt matter if its deemed to be professional or not, its still cheating. I have said for ages I hate seeing the way certain things have now become acceptable in football under the banner "Professional foul". Its cheating, plain and simple.

Think this one may be pointed at me for my comment.

Dkw, I wasn't calling what he did a "professional foul". I was using "pro" in the gaming sense and it was being sarcastic. Like when we have someone screw up they get the comment, "pro move". It's completely the opposite. Sometimes I forget that terms even though stated the same could have completely different meanings.

Sorry for the confusion.

In any case, this was a blatant foul, cheat, and poorly executed (and funny to watch). Still, got to give the guy some kudos for actually slapping himself in the face. ;)

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I think this cheating thing is benig sensationalised. I mean by the same logic, anytime the ball goes out of play its because someone cheated, no? Its against the rules right?

So many handballs are just as intentional, yet because the results and their importance vary, so does our opinion of the degree of "cheating" despite the act being the same.

Im not concerned about this style of "cheating" byplayers. Its natural in compeition to seek any possible advantage, I mean thats the sole reason we have rules and refs to enforce them, right?

What I despise is those who seek to interfere with the ref/impede the refs ability to do their job, or corrupt/incompetent refs. This person, the ref, is there to prevent/punish any cheating...so to interfere with the person to me is worse than handling a ball. This ranges from the horde of Barca players who surround the ref and wave fake cards after every tackle against them, to players who feign injury to get other sent off, or corrupt administrators who deny refs the tools they need to do the best/fairest job possible(technology) or send out refs to fulfill certain "hidden" agendas.

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I know that's what is being referred to, but his actions were punished by an existing rule that he was likely aware of. 3 years ago (I think) we drew 4-4 to Aston Villa around Christmas. Ashley handled the ball on the line in the last minute, was red carded, and a penalty (that was converted) was given to Aston Villa. Does this mean that Ashley is a cheat as well?

I don't follow your point here. And the comparison with Cole is not valid, as videos showed he didn't handle the ball. Yes he was red carded and Villa equalised from the pen, but he appealed, and the FA ignored the video evidence. Suarez's handball was as cynical as you will ever see. I don't buy the argument that it was a reflex - he did what he felt he had to do to stop Ghana going through.

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My take on this: deliberate handball is a breach of the rules, but it's not cheating. It's a breach of the rules and gets punished as such. Cheating is trying to get away with it. By this logic, Suarez broke the rules - he handled the ball and was duly sent off. If the penalty had been scored there would have been no talk fo Suarez cheating.

Maradona on the other hand, not only deliberately handled the ball, but just as deliberately disguised his actions to make it appear to the ref that he had scored a legitimate goal. In other words he deliberately set out to con the ref. Suarez on the other hand, simply did what he had to do as a last resort to stop the ball crossing the line, and for this he was fully prepared to take the consequences.

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My take on this: deliberate handball is a breach of the rules, but it's not cheating. It's a breach of the rules and gets punished as such. Cheating is trying to get away with it. By this logic, Suarez broke the rules - he handled the ball and was duly sent off. If the penalty had been scored there would have been no talk fo Suarez cheating.

Maradona on the other hand, not only deliberately handled the ball, but just as deliberately disguised his actions to make it appear to the ref that he had scored a legitimate goal. In other words he deliberately set out to con the ref. Suarez on the other hand, simply did what he had to do as a last resort to stop the ball crossing the line, and for this he was fully prepared to take the consequences.

In rugby they award a try when an infringement - whether deemed deliberate or not - prevents a probable try. It is the ref's call what constitutes a 'probable try', but it's usually when a side is going for a pushover try and the opposition collapses the scrum or kicks it out of the scrum. It is also awarded in the case of a player obstructing another in a race to ground the ball beyond the try line.

There are very few instances where this could ever apply in football, but deliberate handball on the line - as in the case of Suarez for Uruguay - would be beyond dispute. Refs currently have to judge any handball as deliberate before penalising it, as accidental handball is not an offence, so it's not much of a leap for them to decide that a goal would have been scored if the player on the line hadn't handled.

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My take on this: deliberate handball is a breach of the rules, but it's not cheating. It's a breach of the rules and gets punished as such. Cheating is trying to get away with it. By this logic, Suarez broke the rules - he handled the ball and was duly sent off. If the penalty had been scored there would have been no talk fo Suarez cheating.

Maradona on the other hand, not only deliberately handled the ball, but just as deliberately disguised his actions to make it appear to the ref that he had scored a legitimate goal. In other words he deliberately set out to con the ref. Suarez on the other hand, simply did what he had to do as a last resort to stop the ball crossing the line, and for this he was fully prepared to take the consequences.

So how would that work with the Henry handball, that was both cheating and a breach of the rules. Its a weird one this, so open to interpretation as to what constitutes cheating. In my opinion things like tugging shirts, blatant handballs etc is cheating given credence by getting punishment. I wonder how these kind of things were viewed 40 or 50 years ago before it became an almost acceptable part of the game.

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So how would that work with the Henry handball, that was both cheating and a breach of the rules. Its a weird one this, so open to interpretation as to what constitutes cheating. In my opinion things like tugging shirts, blatant handballs etc is cheating given credence by getting punishment. I wonder how these kind of things were viewed 40 or 50 years ago before it became an almost acceptable part of the game.

How times change... 50 or 60 years ago, barging the keeper into the goal was acceptable. Was it Nat Lofthouse who scored at Wembley by shoulder-charging the keeper into the goal? I take your point entirely though, that kind of thing was honest and up front and at the time was well within the rules. All those little niggles, shirt tugging and so on, that have crept into the game are all part of the win at all costs mentality.

The Henry handball, like Maradona's was as you say both cheating and in breach of the rules. I'd argue that Suarez was in a different category to those incidents, a last resort attempt to stop the opposition scoring and sod the consequences. Maradona and Henry both deliberately and successfully conned the ref.

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In rugby they award a try when an infringement - whether deemed deliberate or not - prevents a probable try. It is the ref's call what constitutes a 'probable try', but it's usually when a side is going for a pushover try and the opposition collapses the scrum or kicks it out of the scrum. It is also awarded in the case of a player obstructing another in a race to ground the ball beyond the try line.

There are very few instances where this could ever apply in football, but deliberate handball on the line - as in the case of Suarez for Uruguay - would be beyond dispute. Refs currently have to judge any handball as deliberate before penalising it, as accidental handball is not an offence, so it's not much of a leap for them to decide that a goal would have been scored if the player on the line hadn't handled.

I've heard of the penalty try, but not being a rugby fan don't really understand how it works. However, I don't think "probable goal" would work somehow. It would have to be a lot more clear cut than that, as in the Suarez incident - if he hadn't used his hands, it was a goal. No question about it. As you say, there are very few instances where this could be applied in football. If you were to extend the rule to cover a blatant trip in the penalty box, this is where "probable" could come into it - it's not that infrequent to see a player miss when it looks easier to score. You could effectively end up awarding goals for creating chances. "Beyond dispute" sounds good in theory, but in practice we're asking for common sense. Which is very often too much to ask.

All that aside, assuming such a rule could be introduced and made to work, there wouldn't be much point in someone like Suarez using his handling the ball in the same circumstances, but the Maradona/Henry conmen would still be at it.

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How times change... 50 or 60 years ago, barging the keeper into the goal was acceptable. Was it Nat Lofthouse who scored at Wembley by shoulder-charging the keeper into the goal? I take your point entirely though, that kind of thing was honest and up front and at the time was well within the rules. All those little niggles, shirt tugging and so on, that have crept into the game are all part of the win at all costs mentality.

The Henry handball, like Maradona's was as you say both cheating and in breach of the rules. I'd argue that Suarez was in a different category to those incidents, a last resort attempt to stop the opposition scoring and sod the consequences. Maradona and Henry both deliberately and successfully conned the ref.

:laugh2: yeah fair point, and their was also cheating going on back then too with diving etc existing also. It seems to me that those kind of niggly fouls are now so common place as to be allowed without fear of a yellow card, yet fouls by a player who are just late into a tackle etc are almost automatically a yellow now.

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Seriously I dont get this Suarez cheated logic.

Cheating is when you try to con and think you can get away with it. What Suarez did would be better termed as sacrifice for the good of the team. He knew what he was doing and he knew the punishment and he knew there is no way he is going to get away with it.

Its unlawful, yes. Its illegitimate, yes. But its not cheating.

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The Henry handball, like Maradona's was as you say both cheating and in breach of the rules. I'd argue that Suarez was in a different category to those incidents, a last resort attempt to stop the opposition scoring and sod the consequences. Maradona and Henry both deliberately and successfully conned the ref.

If I could edit my thread title, I'd happily insert Henry's name in between Maradona and Suarez. I'd also add Joe Jordan's for the blatant handball v Wales in 1978, which the ref saw as a Welsh handball and gave a penalty that took Scotland to their calamitous WC in Argentina. (Interesting how both France and Scotland had shockers, isn't it? Hoddle would have a view on that).

Cheating is when you try to con and think you can get away with it. What Suarez did would be better termed as sacrifice for the good of the team. He knew what he was doing and he knew the punishment and he knew there is no way he is going to get away with it.

Its unlawful, yes. Its illegitimate, yes. But its not cheating.

I see your point, that one is sneaky and one is blatant, but they're both cynical, deliberate attempts to cheat the opposition by wilfully going against the laws and the spirit of the game.

Edited by Backbiter
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