Why do we persist with playing a 433 formation that requires wingers to be effective when none of our boys are particularly effective crossers?

Our switch to 442 against West Brom yesterday, was the real difference that got us the win, Lampard in particular played with more vigour. At the very least they didn't know exactly what we were going to do at all times as our 433 has become predictable. It's perfectly fine being predictable if even if they can predict it they can't stop it. Now they can stop it, so the key is to become more unpredictable surely?

Why are we playing a formation that doesn't bring the best out of the players we actually have right now, instead of trying to force our best players into a formation where they are playing out of position and are ineffective?

We're relying on an RB who can't cross and an LB who can but has little support from Malouda, to bomb up the wings, and our excellent but aging centre backs are playing much further up the pitch. This change has made us more vulnerable defensively as the Long goal showed but has gained us no real dividends up front, so surely until we have the right men this formation should be put on the back burner.

I don't necessarily agree about the 4-4-2 because I still think Anelka, played a similar role to the one he always does, and Ramires remained fairly tucked in on the right.

I think yesterday showed that against these kind of teams our midfield is going to have to move towards a 2-1 double pivot rather than a 1-2 as it is now. As much as Mikel was very brave in playing yesterday, he just isn't the kind of player for those teams that defend deep with two banks of four. Because Tchoyi (or Reginald D Hunter as someone in match chat called him) was looking to drift wide in behind the fullbacks, Mikel was the free man, and while he is excellent at recycling possession, in those sort of matches being the free man you really have to do more.

His movement off the ball is still pretty ordinary and he just doesn't really look to start anything. Essien in his prime in that position or Scott Parker run at the defence or lay a short ball off and then burst forward off the ball. That puts the defence under pressure and makes the opposition midfielders make a decision. Do they push up on the ball or track the run? It creates an option and might open up a pass,

Too often in these games Mikel moves in a single band side to side across the pitch entirely in front of the defence. Now I certainly appreciate Mikel's role and it's important against teams who are more of a threat with the ball, but with close to 70% of the ball against a team defending very deep he just doesn't do enough for me.

I think if Modric does come in, in these sort of matches, he'll feature in a double pivot with Ramires that'll allow more movement off the ball to better provoke the opposition with the ball as AVB puts it. Mikel would feature in games where the anchor man might be more necessary.

To be honest my knowledge of football tactics wouldn't be great , could you explain the 1-2 and 2-1 double pivots please? I guess it's just getting to me that we're playing a 433 when our players aren't great at crossing.

You're right though we didn't really need a DM yesterday, we could have used a more attacking player in the free role. Think that AVB got too much credit yesterday, he took off a lad who was playing way below his ability, that's the bare minimum really and was only rectifying his own error. I also think that with Luiz back the highline would make a lot more sense, Terry and Alex are great but they aren't going to win a foot chase at distance against a guy like Shane Long every time. Just seems like we've destabilized our main asset which is our solid defense for little to no returns as the guys just aren't there for a wide expansive game.

Against Stoke in the 2nd half Anelka was great in the free role, maybe he could be molded into a number 10, a 4411?

442 requires more natural wingers than does 433. Also the latter is the preferred formation of our manager so its fine with me. If we add some flair and creativity to the midfield and out wide, we'd be fine.

2-1 double pivot means having 2 defensive mids, one of whom is a creator from the deep and the other a destroyer.... and one midfielder sitting in front of those two. Like Milan used to play with Gattuso and Pirlo.

Ah now I understand! Thanks for explaining Rahul, I guess every formation has its pros and cons, I just think we've been playing the 433 since the Mourinho days, it was predictable in the old days but unstoppable, now that our lads are slowing a wee bit I guess I just want a better idea of what other options we have?

Of the players used by Chelsea on the opening day of the 2009/10 season (a lucky 2-1 win at home to Hull City), 10 were used on the opening day of this season. Let’s compare this to that of Man U. Of the players they used on the opening day of that season only 2 were used on the opening fixture of this season. The key to the success of teams like United is the fact they evolve and are able to replace outgoing players with young, upcoming ones. The purchase of players like Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Javier Hernandez and Ashley Young as well as the promotion of players such as Cleverley, Wellbeck and the Raphael brothers is testament to that.

This is something successive Chelsea managers have failed to do. Not one has the bottle to tinker with the side created by Jose. Carlo was supposed to be the one to change the team, bring in new players, encourage youth and oversee a new style of football. But then the unexpected happened. How could he change a team that had just won the double scoring a hatful of goals in the process. The next season everything came undone and it was too late for him. The result of this is -- and is the major problem facing AVB -- is that because things have been left so long what is needed now is no longer evolution but revolution. And this is bound to shake things up in the dressing room.

The good news is that I fell certain that AVB realizes this, after all he was part of the team headed by the Special One that created the monster that has been out side for the past eight years (goodness, is it really that long?!). The revolution has begun with the signing of Mata, Lukaku, Romeu, Courtois and Piazon. Hopefully we will also see Modric join and maybe even another wide player. The emergence of some of our youth players, in particular Josh and Studge and the blueprint is there for the revolution. But this is going to come at the expense of Anelka, Malouda, Kalou and in particular Drogba and Lampard as those two are not going to like it. This is where AVB will earn his money to negotiate this without causing a split in the dressing room.

For what it’s worth, this is the team I would like to be our starting 11 come the new year…

Cech

Ivanovic, Luiz, Terry, Cole

Mikel

Modric McEachran

Sturridge Torres Mata

Subs: Hilario, Drogba, Lampard, Boswinga, Malouda, Romeu, Lukaku

Thoughts…?

Edited August 24, 201113 yr by ethicalstrategy

*Lukaku

Sorry it just drives me mad!!

I too would like that team... or one similar at least, but I would still not call that a revolution. All told, that is 2, maybe 3 changes from what we'd be playing now if all players were available.

I think the 4-2-3-1 is the way that we'll be going forwards. Mikel will be the one missing out from your side. A side somewhat like this.

--

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - Terry - Cole

----

Ramires - Modric

---

Sturridge

-------

Lampard

-------

Mata

--

Torres

With Modric and Ramires playing deep and taking in turns to move up in a classic double pivot. Modric able to pull the strings whilst deep, Ramires with the pace, drive and energy to go both ways on the pitch and help protect Modric.

The problem with this side is that Lampard may struggle in the hole again; however the upshot is that he can basically swap with Ramires. We've seen him do well deep before and he may well have to reinvent himself to keep a spot. If he fails to do so, we have plenty of options still. We can move Mata centrally and Malouda/Anelka on the left. Or as you suggested McEachran can play in the hole. Failing those options (and there's enough there, really), we can have Mikel deep and Modric in the hole, or Romeu deep and Modric in the hole.

We have plenty of options on how to change it up if Modric arrives, even if Benayoun goes the other way. Like I said before though, this to me is more evolution. It's three changes from the end of last season. Two if you don't count Sturridge as he was always going to come back and play a part. Revolution is a massive overhaul, I wouldn't class this as that. It is however to use an Obama campaign slogan, 'Change We Need'.

Edit -

f**k you, indent feature. You're a dick.

Edited August 22, 201113 yr by Eggy McMuffin

Either way evolution or revolution we are singing from the same hymn sheet. I only hope that AVB is as well.

By dropping the big players such as Lamps and Drogs (both of whom are the same age as him) be interesting to see how they rake it. I feel pretty certain that ~drogba will not play for AVB and will be on his way. I have, however, higher hopes of Lampard.

Cech

Ivanovic, Luiz, Terry, Cole

Mikel

Modric McEachran

Sturridge Torres Mata

Subs: Hilario, Drogba, Lampard, Boswinga, Malouda, Romeu, Lukaku

Thoughts…?

Wrote this team down on paper earlier today for a mate and have to say I agree with every word tzu

I have had to accept the point thought that unlike are managers Ferguson is man united. I respect the way he has ofloaded the likes of sparky, ince, kean, van nistelroy, stam, the list could go on. Those names alone would make a pretty formidable outfit but when it came to the detriment of the team, be it standing in the way of some promesing tallent or just s disruption in the dressing room they where promptly moved on.

He's made mistakes as well but he doesnt dwell on them thinking they will come good. Jose did a simmeler thing when he came in getting rid of veron and Jimmy when he came intold crespo he could chill out in italy for a year, and of course gronks went as well.

Players came in, that didnt work out, tiago and kezman, and the following season they where of.

Im hoping for simmeler results from AVB, was initialy disapointed when we didnt get rid of a few early doors but to be fair we didn't have the cover.

Make no mistake lamps is not he player he was and he probably shouldnt be starting, hopefully soon AVB will see this

Very well made points. In particular, the truth is we should have let Drogba go a few seasons back. The thing is he has done all he possibly could for us and our over reliance on him up front has led to our style of play stagnating over the past few years. Alex Ferguson would have got rid years ago just as he did Cole, Van Nistelroy etc etc. I would imagine that not being first on the team sheet has pissed him off no end. And we all know, when he is pissed off he does;t perform and merely becomes disruptive (his performance on Saturday was almost back to the Scolari days).

As far as Lamps is concerned. I sincerely hope that he will accept his slight demotion to squad player whilst taking up the chance to do his FA badges and become player coach. He is and always will be a Chelsea legend.

The only two of the old guard who demand starting places are JT and Ashley.

I do have faith that AVB sees this. I only hope that our fans are patient as this is going to take time. If win nothing this year but manage to over haul the team in his image and still qualify for the champions league I would consider it a very successful season. I only hope that Roman agrees.

I agree nearly so here goes

...................................cech

Bossy...................luiz..........Terry.................Cole

Romeu

..........Ramires...........Modric.............Mc E

............Sturridge/?...................Mata

.............................Torres

Subs,,,,Drogs ,lamps,mikel ,yossi,turnbull,Lukaku

Think Romeu can play anchor role,looked very assured for spain u20s, cultured passer,and can dig in,plenty of invention in MF with mods and Josh,and the energy of Ramires,upfront Mata on left Sturridge or a new right winger if studge can't do it ,or anelka with a rocket from Avb,to be more direct and not dither so much.

I agree nearly so here goes

...................................cech

Bossy...................luiz..........Terry.................Cole

Romeu

..........Ramires...........Modric.............Mc E

............Sturridge/?...................Mata

.............................Torres

Subs,,,,Drogs ,lamps,mikel ,yossi,turnbull,Lukaku

Think Romeu can play anchor role,looked very assured for spain u20s, cultured passer,and can dig in,plenty of invention in MF with mods and Josh,and the energy of Ramires,upfront Mata on left Sturridge or a new right winger if studge can't do it ,or anelka with a rocket from Avb,to be more direct and not dither so much.

I think fielding 12 players would definitely be classed as a revolution.

My mistake sorry,will have to drop josh....tis late and the candle doth cast a dim shadow over my poor lappy

History shows that any side seeking revolution rather than evolution inevitably fails. It's more accurate to say we need an evolution of the playing staff and a revolution in the playing style.

No more sideways passing. No more "percentage football", putting aimless crosses in good areas 'hoping' that someone will latch on to them. No more stagant players in midfield, practically standing next to each other. No more long-balls from the back to the front, hoping for the striker to hold the ball up. No more selfish runs and shots from outside the box.

More diagonal passes. More movement off the ball in midfield. More looking up and searching for teammates. More combining with teammates to beat a player instead of pointlessly running at the opposition. More thinking about the game, thinking about how to break down a tight defense instead of trial and error passing.

History shows that any side seeking revolution rather than evolution inevitably fails. It's more accurate to say we need an evolution of the playing staff and a revolution in the playing style.

No more sideways passing. No more "percentage football", putting aimless crosses in good areas 'hoping' that someone will latch on to them. No more stagant players in midfield, practically standing next to each other. No more long-balls from the back to the front, hoping for the striker to hold the ball up. No more selfish runs and shots from outside the box.

More diagonal passes. More movement off the ball in midfield. More looking up and searching for teammates. More combining with teammates to beat a player instead of pointlessly running at the opposition. More thinking about the game, thinking about how to break down a tight defense instead of trial and error passing.

Yep.

Having seen some of the football City and Utd played in their last games, we're seriously in danger of being left behind if we continue to play our slow, predictable style of football. You've hit the nail on the head with the line "evolution of the playing staff and a revolution in the playing style". That's exactly what is required and it looks like AVB has seen that and is already going about implementing it.

Of course it won't happen overnight and hopefully he has started building for a long future. We cyrrently have too many player who look they are in their comfort zone and only know one way of playing. That HAS to change - just look at Utd last night - Wellbeck and Cleverly for them - see Sturridge and McEachran for us.

Last night, at kick off, Ashley Young was United's second oldest player on the pitch; had he been playing for Chelsea he would have been the second youngest.

As someone rightly said , our over reliance on drogba over the past seasons has made our attack stale and slow in comparison to other top teams . If drog plays well. we look good else we look rubbish .

I wonder how much contract extension has been offered to drog considering the likes of Torres and Lukaku available in our ranks

I've been saying this for months but been shot down every time I dare to suggest JT and Lampard should not be dropped, if I were Chelsea manager this would be my team.

Subs: Hilario, JT, Lampard, Essien, Malouda, Romeu, Drogba, Lukaku

I'm tired of watching the same slow inept performances each week and our older players hindering the progression of the promising youngsters we have. I'm hoping for a 1-0 win to us with a poor performance so that AVB will see the light.

isn't Danny still banned?

I've been saying this for months but been shot down every time I dare to suggest JT and Lampard should not be dropped, if I were Chelsea manager this would be my team.

Subs: Hilario, JT, Lampard, Essien, Malouda, Romeu, Drogba, Lukaku

I'm tired of watching the same slow inept performances each week and our older players hindering the progression of the promising youngsters we have. I'm hoping for a 1-0 win to us with a poor performance so that AVB will see the light.

Whereas I think you'll find the majority of the people posting on this forum are increasingly worried about the form of Lampard and feel that he no longer an automatic first choice I think those who feel the same about JT are very thin on the ground. And with good reason. His work rate and commitment is second to none. And his performances never drop below good. He was magnificent for most of last year and is our captain. Without his presence on the pitch we are a lesser team. Also I cannot see how he is hindering the progress of promising youngsters.

I've been saying this for months but been shot down every time I dare to suggest JT and Lampard should not be dropped, if I were Chelsea manager this would be my team.

Subs: Hilario, JT, Lampard, Essien, Malouda, Romeu, Drogba, Lukaku

I'm tired of watching the same slow inept performances each week and our older players hindering the progression of the promising youngsters we have. I'm hoping for a 1-0 win to us with a poor performance so that AVB will see the light.

Really? You did see the WBA game didn't you. Alex is the one to be dropped IMO.

Luiz Ivan JT Ash

would be my back 4

also I think i'll wait until we actually sign Modric before I put him in my best 11.

This article from Sky, based on an interview with JT for France Football very much backs up the thinking for the long term approach, but also emphasises that changes are already being made::

Chelsea defender John Terry says he has been impressed by the impact new manager Andre Villas-Boas has made at the club.

The Portuguese coach has made an unbeaten start to the Premier League season after coming from behind to beat West Brom on Saturday.

He is looking to improve on the club's second placed finish last season, when they fell nine points short of champions Manchester United.

Villas-Boas is the ninth manager Terry has played under since his debut in 1998 but the centre-back says he is happy with what he has witnessed so far.

He told France Football: "I have been really impressed with the importance he puts on training sessions.

"Usually in pre-season, we just run. But from the very first day, he showed us how he wanted us to play.

"He wants us to press, play high up the pitch, putting more pressure onto the opposition.

"He says it will take time and matches for it to work."

Out of the previous four Chelsea managers, only Carlo Ancelotti has lasted for longer than 12 months at Stamford Bridge.

Avram Grant, Luiz Felipe Scolari and Guus Hiddink have failed to hold long-term positions at the club, but Terry hopes that is about to change.

He said: "It depends on Roman Abramovich. It is obvious that he wants to win the Champions League.

"But for the manager, he wants to win the Premier League and the Champions League, that's his objective this season.

"Appointments such as Roberto Di Matteo and Steve Holland show that he is thinking about the long term."

LINK