35 minutes ago, Stim said:

So bloody dark and hard to see.

How many main chars died? Like two?

7 hours ago, Slojo said:

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here, but this was a garbage episode. 

I've read all the books and I've watched it since the show first aired, always been a huge fan, but you can tell GRRM's work is absent since midway season 5, the last two seasons have been littered with obvious plot armour but this was the icing on the cake. How many times did you see all the main characters almost dying in impossible situations? You saw 3 wights about to jump on Danerys in birds eye view when she was with Jorah, and still once it jumps back to them both, she's fine. And where on earth did Arya come from? There were hordes and hordes of undead and white walkers and she managed to get the jump on the night king? I don't think so... 

The book is focused on the white walker threat, that's what the show opened up on aswell, but looks like it's going to be about Cersei who the show have made really smart. Meh... Not really that interested now, my hype was pretty much killed after last season with how rushed it was, but the fan service at the moment is real, the books and the show used to be ruthless and unpredictable with killing off characters, now it's turned into the walking dead. 

I agree with this.  I feel they either have to come back to this, or it was a huge let down from the perspective that the dude who keeps coming back from the dead dies his final death to bring Arya safely into a room with the hound and the Red Priestess (she even states that "served his purpose")......but then the next time we see Arya she's jumping the Night King, next we see the Priestess she's walking to her end, and not seeing the hound at all?  I get his moment is to come, but still.....

 

I feel like there was a missing scence of how the Red Priestess & (more along for the ride) the Hound help Aria get ready for her sneak attack.

I did predict that Arya would kill the Night King using some of her talents to hide as a member of the dead/a white walker....but that jump out of nowhere leaves too much "how the F did that happen/make sense?!?!" than there should be for a hero with Arya's ability ....................(oddly enough had a client come today in who named their daughter Aria in 2012 LOL).

 

I'm slightly impressed/suprised they killed the Night King so quickly and cleanly, really thought that the episode would come to a point where all seemed lost and then cut to credits.....so fair play to show the actually victory in the episode instead of ending on a cliff hanger.......but disappointing that the big finale is to be against two living armies and not the dead versus the living.

 

....I do wonder if both dragons survived the battle as the one Snow was riding went down hard and then wasn't seen from again.

 

Agreed you can tell where they diverge from the books...... perhaps HBO feels they have invested too much in certain characters to kill them before the true finale......

 

 

 

Also, wtf was Bran doing all night?  He was doing his seer thing all night even when not looking for the Night King......what was he scheming? I feel it deals with the next few episodes as opposed to that battle.

 

Edit:  And I knew that lil Mormont would take a giant somehow,,,,,,, but was shocked we didnt see more dead giants as previous episodes saw many dead giants in their army, and look how easily that giant got past the flame-moat and smashed into the castle...

 

EDIT EDIT:  And whoever was the head tactician/strategist for the living in that battle deserves to lose their heads.........pretty sure Hodor would have set it up better (also, an army full of Hodors charging into the undead army with the rising the sun on their backs whilst chanting "HODOR, HODOR, HODOR!" was how my heart wanted to Night King to lose....maybe they can beat Cersei this way ?)

Edited April 29, 20197 yr by Barry Bridges

53 minutes ago, Barry Bridges said:

I agree with this.  I feel they either have to come back to this, or it was a huge let down from the perspective that the dude who keeps coming back from the dead dies his final death to bring Arya safely into a room with the hound and the Red Priestess (she even states that "served his purpose")......but then the next time we see Arya she's jumping the Night King, next we see the Priestess she's walking to her end, and not seeing the hound at all?  I get his moment is to come, but still.....

 

I feel like there was a missing scence of how the Red Priestess & (more along for the ride) the Hound help Aria get ready for her sneak attack.

I did predict that Arya would kill the Night King using some of her talents to hide as a member of the dead/a white walker....but that jump out of nowhere leaves too much "how the F did that happen/make sense?!?!" than there should be for a hero with Arya's ability ....................(oddly enough had a client come today in who named their daughter Aria in 2012 LOL).

 

I'm slightly impressed/suprised they killed the Night King so quickly and cleanly, really thought that the episode would come to a point where all seemed lost and then cut to credits.....so fair play to show the actually victory in the episode instead of ending on a cliff hanger.......but disappointing that the big finale is to be against two living armies and not the dead versus the living.

 

....I do wonder if both dragons survived the battle as the one Snow was riding went down hard and then wasn't seen from again.

 

Agreed you can tell where they diverge from the books...... perhaps HBO feels they have invested too much in certain characters to kill them before the true finale......

 

 

 

Also, wtf was Bran doing all night?  He was doing his seer thing all night even when not looking for the Night King......what was he scheming? I feel it deals with the next few episodes as opposed to that battle.

 

Edit:  And I knew that lil Mormont would take a giant somehow,,,,,,, but was shocked we didnt see more dead giants as previous episodes saw many dead giants in their army, and look how easily that giant got past the flame-moat and smashed into the castle...

 

EDIT EDIT:  And whoever was the head tactician/strategist for the living in that battle deserves to lose their heads.........pretty sure Hodor would have set it up better (also, an army full of Hodors charging into the undead army with the rising the sun on their backs whilst chanting "HODOR, HODOR, HODOR!" was how my heart wanted to Night King to lose....maybe they can beat Cersei this way ?)

It asked more questions than it answered I'm afraid, building up the White Walkers for 7 seasons and we still get absolutely nothing on the Night King, the way he was defeated in one episode is just... Ehhh, not just that he was defeated but the purpose of it all, what was the point in it? What was the point in Brann and the 3 eyed Raven? Just seems so stupid now really. Unless there's more to come but I'm not going to be that hopeful about it. 

And tell me about it the battle tactics were horrendous. Jon has fought them before, yet he's an absolute idiot, meet them in open battle? The Dothraki charge was just beyond stupid. The only thing that made sense was using the Unsullied to hold them off, they're perfect for that. Have they ever heard of flanking before? Why couldn't they march the Unsullied in first then flank them with Dragons and Cavalry? Just such a waste. 

OR they should've dug about 4-5 trenches and had the Unsullied behind them, wading them all off and using all the firepower they have against the undead, why they just stopped firing at them when all the dead were standing still for a good 5-10 minutes I have no idea. 

The whole Arya thing really did it for me though, the Wights can hear a drop of blood, but they can't hear her jump behind the night king in the courtyard surrounded by hundreds... Yeah stupid. There was a lot of potential for the white walker storyline and for it to be shot down like that is pretty bad, I get that a lot of people enjoyed but I think after a while when all the hype has died down a lot of people will see this for what it is, pretty underwhelming and badly written. 

I expect the cut and thrust of witty dialogue from GOT as well as Dragonglass and Valerian steel. A very disappointing episode! Boo!!!!!!.

I thought it was fantastic and loved the dizzying, dark effect, it was meant to disorientate and give the feel of what it would be like to be swarmed by the dead. I expect the next episode we will see just what bran was up to, it seems he's been controlling everything to get arya to that point where she both has the dagger and the ability and skill to kill the night King with it. 

I thought it was a great episode, if a bit too dark in places (lighting wise, not tone-wise).

Something that went straight over my head when I watched it- a colleague pointed out to me that Milisandre was Arya's fighting instructor from season 1- who taught her with wooden swords- revealed by that "what do we say to death? not today" line. 

Thoughts? 

Going forward, I don't see how Jon/Dany have enough people left to march on King's Landing with. Dothraki? Dead. Unsullied? Dead. Most of their troops? Dead. So just Brienne, Jaime, Jon, Arya, Clegane and the few people left who survived the Battle for Winterfell. 

I'm looking forward to seeing Jaime turn Queenslayer and stick Cersei straight through the belly with his golden hand, killing her and his unborn babe.

19 hours ago, Slojo said:

The book is focused on the white walker threat, that's what the show opened up on aswell, but looks like it's going to be about Cersei who the show have made really smart. Meh... Not really that interested now, my hype was pretty much killed after last season with how rushed it was, but the fan service at the moment is real, the books and the show used to be ruthless and unpredictable with killing off characters, now it's turned into the walking dead. 

In fairness the show and the books are Game of Thrones. Everything is centred around Iron Throne, it's the catalyst for almost everything that happens, not the white walkers. 

Even the battle of Winterfell ultimately is a plot point for the throne. Daenerys amassed an army throughout the seven kingdoms to help her claim the Iron Throne but the threat of the white walkers needed to be dealt with otherwise there are no kingdoms to rule. 

But now the army she's spent years building is all but gone and Cersei through staying in King's Landing, lying about sending her armies to help in the battle and employing the Golden Army now looks best placed to rule the 7 kingdoms despite Daenerys/John's claims to being the rightful heir. 

You say the show used to be unpredictable with who it killed but since the Red Wedding (which I think was season 3) when has there been a death of any main characters? 

4 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

In fairness the show and the books are Game of Thrones. Everything is centred around Iron Throne, it's the catalyst for almost everything that happens, not the white walkers. 

Even the battle of Winterfell ultimately is a plot point for the throne. Daenerys amassed an army throughout the seven kingdoms to help her claim the Iron Throne but the threat of the white walkers needed to be dealt with otherwise there are no kingdoms to rule. 

But now the army she's spent years building is all but gone and Cersei through staying in King's Landing, lying about sending her armies to help in the battle and employing the Golden Army now looks best placed to rule the 7 kingdoms despite Daenerys/John's claims to being the rightful heir. 

You say the show used to be unpredictable with who it killed but since the Red Wedding (which I think was season 3) when has there been a death of any main characters? 

The main threat is centred around The White Walkers, they make it very clear that the Game Of Thrones is pointless, even in the show they do "It doesn't matter who sits on the Iron Throne" as Jon Snow has said time and time again. The books are called a song of Ice and Fire, the showrunners changed it to Game Of Thrones because it sounds a lot more marketable but they still went with the source material on the White Walkers and them being the main threat. The show opened up on the White Walkers as did the books, it's always been about the White Walker threat and everything else represents humanities squabbles over meaningless titles, when it's really all about the living and the dead. 

And what you mean like Joffrey, Tywin, Jojen and Oberyn in season 4? Those were 4 big characters who died unexpectedly in season 4, but that's not the question, when has there ever been instances where characters keep almost dying but don't, since season 6 that's been the case. Since Jon has come back from the dead he's almost immortal, the battle of bastards, beyond the wall and the battle of winterfell, 3 episodes where he had about 50 near death experiences but didn't die. The only time I can remember Jon being closed to death (before his actual death) was the Siege on the Nights Watch and even then he spent the majority of that on top of the wall commanding the line. 

I remember when Tyrion went to Kings Landing as the hand and he was the smartest character in the castle, now he's become stupid and can't stop making mistakes, suddenly Cersi is the brains of the Lannisters and keeps outwitting everyone despite the show making very clear that Tyrion is the smartest of the 3. 

You can't just kill off everyone or else there is no stories left to tell. You have to keep some central characters alive because no will care about peripheral or new characters in the same way they do about those who have been in it from the start. 

If you look at the characters who have died throughout the seasons, in my opinion it's been pretty consistent with the the types of people who get killed off. Deaths after season 5 have included Shireen Baratheon, Hodor, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell, Margaery Tyrell, Stannis Baratheon.

Tyrion's mistakes mostly centre around his misplaced trust towards his family don't they? So his loyalty towards his family is what makes him "stupid". 

There had to be a resolution to the threat of the white walkers one way or the other so either you have the night king triumph and wipe out humanity which renders everything happening up to that point as meaningless or you have the living prevail but then see the consequence of that. 

John surviving battles, it makes for entertaining television. How many times can you have one of your heroes survive a battle because he wasn't actually taking part? 

Ignoring the how they resolved the white walker threat realistically what other outcome could there be? Sure you could kill off John and Daenerys and whoever else you like but to what end? It makes for a far more interesting story when we get to the resolution of the human squabbles. 

7 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

You say the show used to be unpredictable with who it killed but since the Red Wedding (which I think was season 3) when has there been a death of any main characters? 

I counted at least 5 Major houses are gone (Tyrell, Martell, Frey, Mormont & Umber). Not sure about Reed or Karstark. Did I miss any?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

John surviving battles, it makes for entertaining television. How many times can you have one of your heroes survive a battle because he wasn't actually taking part? 

Lmaooooo, oh dear. 

Sorry, I'll concede, this season is phenomenal. I love watching obvious plot armour with frequent and overuse of deus ex machina's. I thought the episode was great, when I saw something that didn't really make sense or couldn't suspend my disbelief continuously, I just said to myself "It's a show, it's entertaining" and got on with it. I just can't wait to watch next season of The Walking Dead.

16 minutes ago, robdog said:

I counted at least 5 Major houses are gone (Tyrell, Martell, Frey, Mormont & Umber). Not sure about Reed or Karstark. Did I miss any?

As long as we got amazing effects, Dragons FFFF YEHHHHHH! 10/10 episode. 

7 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Lmaooooo, oh dear. 

Sorry, I'll concede, this season is phenomenal. I love watching obvious plot armour with frequent and overuse of deus ex machina's. I thought the episode was great, when I saw something that didn't really make sense or couldn't suspend my disbelief continuously, I just said to myself "It's a show, it's entertaining" and got on with it. I just can't wait to watch next season of The Walking Dead.

If you want to have a discussion about the show and plot we can. Was quite enjoying having a differing opinion but if you’re just going to be a sarcastic prick about it then we’ll just leave it there I guess.

2 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

If you want to have a discussion about the show and plot we can. Was quite enjoying having a differing opinion but if you’re just going to be a sarcastic prick about it then we’ll just leave it there I guess.

What more do you want me to say? Why would I entertain this statement...

"John surviving battles, it makes for entertaining television. How many times can you have one of your heroes survive a battle because he wasn't actually taking part? "

Like yeah sure... If you're entertained by that stuff I'm sure the Fast & Furious movies are well up your street. I would rather not waste my time debating it if that's your taste in quality, our tastes clearly differ on it.

Didn’t realise I was wasting your time by beckoning you from way up high on that pedestal you’ve placed yourself upon. 

You clearly take a show about magic and dragons a lot more seriously than most of us. 

1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Didn’t realise I was wasting your time by beckoning you from way up high on that pedestal you’ve placed yourself upon. 

You clearly take a show about magic and dragons a lot more seriously than most of us. 

If you consider that a high pedestal then sure. I just like a good written plot and premise. 

As for your latter point absolutely, I love getting highly invested into these genre's, that's why I like a well written and consistent plot that you can find immersive and emotional, in other words, I'm a nerd... I think. 

10 hours ago, dkw said:

I thought it was fantastic and loved the dizzying, dark effect, it was meant to disorientate and give the feel of what it would be like to be swarmed by the dead. I expect the next episode we will see just what bran was up to, it seems he's been controlling everything to get arya to that point where she both has the dagger and the ability and skill to kill the night King with it. 

In terms of entertainment it was a great episode, but when you start breaking it down I feel the writing of it/planning was a let down.  As I said they might patch some of the holes in later episodes, and it will fix some of those holes but right now I feel like parts of the episode were either rushed or poorly written.....and those can't be fixed retroactively though it could have just been better scripted to get the same result/survival rate.

For example it'd be much more believable to have all the main hero's & co escape to some citadel like structure/room that they can barely hold off until the Night King dies rather than how they had them survive...... like I'm supposed to believe Jamie Lannister & Podric can have their backs to the wall in an open courtyard while holding off the same undead army that literally just ran over multiple armies, a moat fire, and the very castle walls their backs are against?  How many hours did those two hold off a force that literally armies didn't stand against for more than minutes?  Times that by every other surviving hero..... that was as unrealistic as dragons (yes, Dragons exist and are "realistic" in the show but surviving impossible odds was never realistic in the show...very few ever escaped those odds, and those were spread across seasons and not a half dozen or more in one episode) in a show that's supposed to be ruthless.  If they had all those hero's holding off one or two doorways/hallways where the numbers matter far less...that could be viewed far more realistically.

 

Anyways, for entertainment value it was a massive success, but it did fall away a bit from the otherwise excellent and ruthless scripting of the show.  Mind you, the longest battle scene in cinematic history probably wasn't going to be one of the best written episodes also.

 

Edited April 30, 20197 yr by Barry Bridges

Anyone who uses this "plot armour" term is a tool. 

1 minute ago, Barry Bridges said:

In terms of entertainment it was a great episode, but when you start breaking it down I feel the writing of it/planning was a let down.  As I said they might patch some of the holes in later episodes,  and it will fix some of the holes but right now I feel like parts of the episode were either rushed or poorly written.and that can't be fixed retroactively though it could have just been better scripted.

For example it'd be much more believable to have all the main hero's & co escape to some citadel like structure/room that they can barely hold off until the Night King dies rather than how they had them survive...... like I'm supposed to believe Jamie Lannister & Podric can have their backs to the wall in an open courtyard while holding off the same undead army that literally just ran over multiple armies, a moat fire, and the very castle walls their backs are against?  How many hours did those two hold off a force that literally armies didn't stand against for more than minutes?  Times that by every other surviving hero..... that was as unrealistic as dragons in a show that's supposed to be ruthless.  If they had all those hero's holding off one or two doorways/hallways where the numbers matter far less...that could be viewed far more realistically.

 

Anyways, for entertainment value it was a massive success, but it did fall away a bit from the otherwise excellent and ruthless scripting of the show.  Mind you, the longest battle scene in cinematic history probably wasn't also going to be one of the best written episodes either.

 

I can only hope there's more to the Bran and Night King storyline, I mean I'm going to watch it until the end, only 3 episodes left. But I don't really care for the same stuff, they all go south, manage to somehow survive a crazy battle with their backs up against the wall for the 50th time, come out unscathed again and take down Cersi. 

The main war that was hyped up from Episode 1 9 years ago just ended in one single episode. I can only hope there is more to it and there's a bigger meaning, but I don't think so, like you said, entertainment value wise it's a massive success and clearly it's putting bums on seats to tune in. 

The only thing, however, that did intrigue me in the trailer was 2 dragons? Not sure if anyone else saw that. 

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

Anyone who uses this "plot armour" term is a tool. 

Worst thing you've ever said. 

44 minutes ago, Slojo said:

What more do you want me to say? Why would I entertain this statement...

"John surviving battles, it makes for entertaining television. How many times can you have one of your heroes survive a battle because he wasn't actually taking part? "

Like yeah sure... If you're entertained by that stuff I'm sure the Fast & Furious movies are well up your street. I would rather not waste my time debating it if that's your taste in quality, our tastes clearly differ on it.

Stop aching like a dick because someone has a different opinion about a TV show for f**ks sake, you're making a right bellend of yourself. It's TV, some of us enjoyed it, you didnt. That doesnt make you some kind of super fan who just gets it so much more than us mere plebs. f**king hate this kind of high and mighty attitude about popular entertainment. 

Just now, dkw said:

Stop aching like a dick because someone has a different opinion about a TV show for f**ks sake, you're making a right bellend of yourself. It's TV, some of us enjoyed it, you didnt. That doesnt make you some kind of super fan who just gets it so much more than us mere plebs. f**king hate this kind of high and mighty attitude about popular entertainment. 

How mad were you when you typed this? Scale of 1-10? 

16 minutes ago, Barry Bridges said:

In terms of entertainment it was a great episode, but when you start breaking it down I feel the writing of it/planning was a let down.  As I said they might patch some of the holes in later episodes, and it will fix some of those holes but right now I feel like parts of the episode were either rushed or poorly written.....and those can't be fixed retroactively though it could have just been better scripted to get the same result/survival rate.

For example it'd be much more believable to have all the main hero's & co escape to some citadel like structure/room that they can barely hold off until the Night King dies rather than how they had them survive...... like I'm supposed to believe Jamie Lannister & Podric can have their backs to the wall in an open courtyard while holding off the same undead army that literally just ran over multiple armies, a moat fire, and the very castle walls their backs are against?  How many hours did those two hold off a force that literally armies didn't stand against for more than minutes?  Times that by every other surviving hero..... that was as unrealistic as dragons (yes, Dragons exist and are "realistic" in the show but surviving impossible odds was never realistic in the show...very few ever escaped those odds, and those were spread across seasons and not a half dozen or more in one episode) in a show that's supposed to be ruthless.  If they had all those hero's holding off one or two doorways/hallways where the numbers matter far less...that could be viewed far more realistically.

 

Anyways, for entertainment value it was a massive success, but it did fall away a bit from the otherwise excellent and ruthless scripting of the show.  Mind you, the longest battle scene in cinematic history probably wasn't going to be one of the best written episodes also.

 

I fully expect the next few episodes will show mors of what happened, where bran was dicking about for example. The only ridiculous fighting thing was Sam in my opinion, the rest could definitely hold there own in tight spaces against brainless zombies as they have been taught to fight or fighting all there lives. But I think we need to just detach from the not realistic thing sometimes, plot holes rarely bother me if I've enjoyed it. I agree some of it was shoddy but it was probably done with an idea of who does and doesnt survive. 

30 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Didn’t realise I was wasting your time by beckoning you from way up high on that pedestal you’ve placed yourself upon. 

You clearly take a show about magic and dragons a lot more seriously than most of us. 

On another messageboard, there was a poster that complained that there wasn't enough Military tactics involved with The Battle of Winterfell. Some people just take it much more than a show about Dragons & Magic. C'est la vie

6 minutes ago, Slojo said:

How mad were you when you typed this? Scale of 1-10? 

Not as angry as you are because someone dared enjoy an episode of a TV show.