I was reading some posts on the Scotland Italy game on this and other Forums and found myself thinking about Patriotism,

It seems most Scots get behind the National team much more than English get behind England,

I noticed this when the WC Finals where on and I was in France, the French were very Patriotic,

I know as a Chelsea fan sometimes when England have a friendly I am wishing we never had players in it as I hate getting an important player injured in an England friendly and it having an effect on our season (any Newcastle fans here ) but I usually still want the team to do well.

I love the World Cup and always want England to do well although I usually have the usual moans about the manager or player selection or whatever.

I just wonder why English seem less Patriotic towards the National team than most?

any thoughts?

Oh yeah and good luck to the boys tonight no injuries pleas

For me it boils back down to two main reasons, one general, one football related.

The general one is that Scottish people (spare me a slight generalisation here - apologies Mad Mac) do feel a sense of being shat on over history (mainly by us) and like a lot of nations who feel that way (whether they are right or wrong) a fierce patriotism tends to stick around.

The football related one is that I feel there is a greater % of the population in Scotland than England that put their country before their club.

IMO were just as patriotic as other countries but only really show it when the actual tournament comes around because to be honest watching the qualifiers is a chore rather than something you look foreward to like the World Cup (for me anway)

Loz

thats the thing, in France they seemed to be Country before Club aswell, or thats the impression I got.

I must admit I am more interested in Chelsea than England and cant really see why?

Jack

I see what you mean about the qualifiers but I just wonder why in say an FA cup 3rd round game Chelsea against anyone is Life or death unyet England qualifying for the world cup is a chore,

I think like it as well its wierd

For me it boils back down to two main reasons, one general, one football related.

The general one is that Scottish people (spare me a slight generalisation here - apologies Mad Mac) do feel a sense of being shat on over history (mainly by us) and like a lot of nations who feel that way (whether they are right or wrong) a fierce patriotism tends to stick around.

The football related one is that I feel there is a greater % of the population in Scotland than England that put their country before their club.

Another thing to remember is that football in scotland isnt quite the luxury day out corporate heaven it is in england. There are far more real fans there that at wembley. Also, part of the reason that english fans put their club first in their minds is that the prizes on offer are far more realistic and worthwhile to them (the big sides obviously) than the glory that may one day finally come along with england.

the main reason i find it difficult to show patriotism to the football team is the media. I find it so incedibly boring and annoying listening to all the sh*te that goes with an england game. When there is an international break i pretty much avoid sports pages and sky sports news because its all the same rehashed opinions as last time. I love watching international tournaments and the whole thing is always more enjoyable if england are there, bt their eventual demise rarely detracts from the tournament for me, other than 90 and 96 obviously.

I'm fully expecting england to qualify now, but the scots can be much more proud of their failing than we can of our success (presuming it comes)

If you're English you're not allowed to be patriotic, that's racist!

If you're English you're not allowed to be patriotic, that's racist!

quite possibly true!! lol

If you're English you're not allowed to be patriotic, that's racist!

Actually a very valid and sad point. The English flag has become horrifically associated with racism and it has done so, in my opinion, for two main reasons.

1. Because of the foul increase in support for the BNP

2. (and quite the other extreme) Excessive poltiical correctness which massively muddies the water between honest patriotism and anti foreigner.

Up here i Scotland you can fly the Scottish flag all night and day and nobody would think twice about it.

England played a meaningless friendly away to Austria last friday and took more the 3000 fans. Not many countries would do the same.

England are exceptionally well supported compared to the vast majority of countries.

England have a large following of "fans" - trouble is, a lot of 'em are more interested in boo-ing their own players than getting behind the team.

Always been the way, Lampard is by no means the first to suffer this - John Barnes used to get the same treatment years ago (though in his case it was more justified, obviously!)

If you're English you're not allowed to be patriotic, that's racist!

Unfortunately you're right. Atleast that's the way it is in Sweden.

In some schools they won't even play the national anthem anymore.

Now I'm not really a patriot. In my oppinion Sweden kinda sucks. But even so, I should have the right to show my love for my country.

England have a large following of "fans" - trouble is, a lot of 'em are more interested in boo-ing their own players than getting behind the team.

Always been the way, Lampard is by no means the first to suffer this - John Barnes used to get the same treatment years ago (though in his case it was more justified, obviously!)

You dirty racist!!!

England have a large following of "fans" - trouble is, a lot of 'em are more interested in boo-ing their own players than getting behind the team.

Always been the way, Lampard is by no means the first to suffer this - John Barnes used to get the same treatment years ago (though in his case it was more justified, obviously!)

You dirty racist!!!

naah - Barnes was just crap for England. Amazingly, he got 79 England caps, which just goes to show how long England have suffered from sh*te managers.

I personally believe the highlight of Barnes' career was his stint as manager of Septic, and in my opinion he should still be there now

You English are so repressed...........your forefather's once ruled the world and now you worry about being called a racist. You f*cking invented football for christ sake!! Your national team, like their supporters have turned into pussy's. Where is the swagger? FIFA has tamed the three Lions.

............And did those feet..............in ancient times......................walk upon England's mountains green............

...... I will not cease from mental fight,

Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,

Till we have built Jerusalem

In England’s green and pleasant land.

.........

Take back your Football my English friends!!!

You English are so repressed...........your forefather's once ruled the world and now you worry about being called a racist. You f*cking invented football for christ sake!! Your national team, like their supporters have turned into pussy's. Where is the swagger? FIFA has tamed the three Lions.

............And did those feet..............in ancient times......................walk upon England's mountains green............

...... I will not cease from mental fight,

Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,

Till we have built Jerusalem

In England’s green and pleasant land.

.........

Take back your Football my English friends!!!

Errr, if that was aimed at me, Scott, I support Scotland

The football related one is that I feel there is a greater % of the population in Scotland than England that put their country before their club.

Thats quite untrue IMO. I don't see a preference between club or country, we are just an extremely proud country who get behind everyteam we support. I'm not in any way insinuating that England are not a proud nation but in Scotland we get behind everyteam we support 100%, I go to every single Rangers match and naturaly i hate Celtic with a passion but whenever a Celtic player is called up to the Scotland squad there is no biasness or ill feeling i get behind that player 100% because at the end of the day he is Scottish and that is all that matters to me. Unfortunatly i don't see that with England, there are divided loyalties with preferences towards players from the clubs you support and a negative feelings towards players from rival clubs. When players are booed by England 'fans', most notably Lampard, you can bet that he isn't being booed by Chelsea fans, its fans from rival clubs who when things aren't going there way turn to their club prejudice. There doesn't seem to be any unity between fans.

My point wasn't whether Rangers fans support Celtic players in a Scotland jersey (or vice versa with Celtic supporters) it was more about what would you choose first, domestic success for your club or international success for your country. For me there is a greater weighting toward the country in Scotland than there is in England.

In England we have many fans who wouldn't want their players playing for England in case they come back injured. I never see that in Scotland.

You English are so repressed...........your forefather's once ruled the world and now you worry about being called a racist. You f*cking invented football for christ sake!! Your national team, like their supporters have turned into pussy's. Where is the swagger? FIFA has tamed the three Lions.

Take back your Football my English friends!!!

If any other Yanks want to get into a head to head on who has the worthier country, then please get in touch soon. Tossers....

My point wasn't whether Rangers fans support Celtic players in a Scotland jersey (or vice versa with Celtic supporters) it was more about what would you choose first, domestic success for your club or international success for your country. For me there is a greater weighting toward the country in Scotland than there is in England.

In England we have many fans who wouldn't want their players playing for England in case they come back injured. I never see that in Scotland.

I wasnt saying that was your point a was just using that as an example of how different it is between Scotland and England. About how IMO England fans never really seem to be fully commited to the team because they cant let go of their predjudice towards rival players and therefore are not fully supporting the whole team. I was just saying how that i feel it is different in Scotland because no matter what club you come from, once you pull on a Scotland shirt your a Scotland player, nothing else. Thats why IMO the Scottish support is so great, it doesn't come down to whether you favour club or country its whether you get behind your team (club or country) 100%. Obviously it all comes down to opinions, this is just mine

wow the fans at wembley were pretty p.o.ed. One guys doing an interview with skysports and all you can hear in the background is " sack McClaren!" and "we're f**ked!" One guy says "that was the most pathetic display of football i've ever seen, we were a pub team out there!" Then becks was asked about the game. Reporter : "so what can you say about the outcome of the game?" Becks " Well we lost..this is the first time i haven't qualified for a cup competition with a team before" (guess he forgot about mls) But beckham played his part. But the best part was when everyone kept bashing Gerrard. I haven't heard Skysports say anything negative about gerrard, but now everyone's having a go at him. Good things said about Lampard, said he held his nerves quite well when he took the penalty. I haven't seen the replay of the game, but maybe it's not worth my time to watch.

McClaren's having a meeting with the FA tommorow at 8:30 a.m tommrow and his future will be assesed after that. Hopefully i wake up tomorow with the news of mcclaren sacked.

Can someone cheer me up and post details of the Gerrard bashing please - who aid ti, what was siad etc, as I turned my TV off in disgust once we'd lost.

My point wasn't whether Rangers fans support Celtic players in a Scotland jersey (or vice versa with Celtic supporters) it was more about what would you choose first, domestic success for your club or international success for your country. For me there is a greater weighting toward the country in Scotland than there is in England.

In England we have many fans who wouldn't want their players playing for England in case they come back injured. I never see that in Scotland.

It's because the Scottish team actually seems to be going somewhere.

I think it's about expectations and entitlements.

The Scots don't have either of these. They go out to each match as underdogs and when they have fantastic results like against France their supporters begin to believe and get right behind them and the players start to believe too.

The England fans and teams expect to qualify and feel entitled to qualify. There is less of a sense of urgency in terms of play and support. It is time we see ourselves as underdogs now. Which we are. Let's start to support England with no expectations and sense of entitlement. We might start to win.

We are no different to how it went for Holland in the last 15 years. Fallen giants.

Personally I think it goes further than that, I do believe it's a direct decendant to the fact that in our daily lives we are not allowed to be English. On a daily level at the grass routes, what are we? Patriotism is not about religion but we are a C of E country (historically and as a majority) yet we have schools, sports clubs etc, that are for other religions only. Why is there a need for that? Why do others segregate to such a level that on occassions they will only compete against those of the same religion (for example).

You go past that and you are constantly told that you have to provide places (in any part of our lives) that are for the minorities, and by that we do not mean the real minorities it means that Females and other religions (other than C of E) have to be represented in everything. Regardless of whether they are the best for the role or not.

In the EPL we are closer to having rules that state that you have to have minimum of foreigners rather than a minimum of English players. That's not a reflection of the Premier League but a reflection of English society.

For the record I have no problem with each individual being given a fair crack but we are currently being told that minorities should have a fairer crack that us. That is why there seems to be a lack of patrotism with England at the moment.

Personally I think it goes further than that, I do believe it's a direct decendant to the fact that in our daily lives we are not allowed to be English. On a daily level at the grass routes, what are we? Patriotism is not about religion but we are a C of E country (historically and as a majority) yet we have schools, sports clubs etc, that are for other religions only. Why is there a need for that? Why do others segregate to such a level that on occassions they will only compete against those of the same religion (for example).

You go past that and you are constantly told that you have to provide places (in any part of our lives) that are for the minorities, and by that we do not mean the real minorities it means that Females and other religions (other than C of E) have to be represented in everything. Regardless of whether they are the best for the role or not.

In the EPL we are closer to having rules that state that you have to have minimum of foreigners rather than a minimum of English players. That's not a reflection of the Premier League but a reflection of English society.

For the record I have no problem with each individual being given a fair crack but we are currently being told that minorities should have a fairer crack that us. That is why there seems to be a lack of patrotism with England at the moment.

I think you're better than this, Barn.

England did not lose to Croatia on Weds because we have to accommodate minorities into our society. We lost because we put a team of multi-millionaires on the pitch who've already got everything they could possible want in life against a team of nobodys with everything to prove.

Oh, and we put a twat in charge of them.

Oh, and he was given the job by an even bigger twat.

PS - look at the England cricket team and the Barmy Army to see that accommodating minorities into our society does not diminish partriotic fervour....sometimes!

Mike