Towards the end of last season people feared that our first team had too many 'old' players. For many, that fear was dampened with our blistering start to this season. Today, Manchester city pushed our buttons and revealed are biggest weakness, age. Not trying to single out players, but Ballack and Deco's performance today underlines the growing concern in our team. As great players as they are, and as much as they have achieved, they simply do not have the legs for the pace of the English league - they will not last an entire season. This, undoubtedly, takes away our midfield 'engine' effect.

Manchester City simply dominated the game, and ran riot over our midfield. We only started looking decent, and a threat, when Mikel and Juliano were brought on. Decent as Mikel brought with him composure, a threat as the 'Bison' was unleashed - oddly, it even made Deco wake up and start playing. The point to be made here, is that we need to ingest youth, vigor, stamina, and pace in our midfield. It is a conservative estimate that many teams in the league show us a lot of respect, and that makes those games 'slightly' easier - I fear that Manchester City showed other teams today that if they have a real go at us, they can come away with something. Yes, certainly, if any team has a real go at any of the top four, their chances of coming away with something are higher. But title winning sides must be capable of absorbing that 'go', and retaliating with venom, and for us to do that, we need players capable of running post-to-post all game.

Sure, this could be a 'one off', and we could be back to our dominating best. But the fact is, we did not have the gusto to deal with this 'one off' today - and, we should have. Would the result have been different if Carlo had made the substitutions earlier, if Lampard had scored the penalty, and Drogba finished the chance towards the end? Maybe it would have - but it would not have changed the fact that we could not match the City muscle in the first half. And if that first half gets other teams to start giving our players a run, we very well might want to pull out the shopping basket come January.

Exactly my thoughts when I was tucking into breakfast this morning, i.e. should we have a starting eleven that includes both Ballack and Deco, while Lamps is also looking a bit flat. My take was more, as we don't really have a great deal of youth ready to step up, should be we stop the tinkering and play with a regular midfield four of say Obi - Essien - Ballack - Lampard. I understand the tinkering to keep players match fit and rested, but in the case of Ballack and Lampard and to some degree Essien I think the more they play the better they become (look at the end of last year under Gus). Get the feeling at times this rotation or tinkering is purely done for the sake of it. Can help thinking it's Rancelottieri in charge.

Whilst I do agree that the squad could do with an injection of fresh blood, I have to disagree that age was the deciding factor in yesterday's defeat. This was after all, pretty much the same team that demolished a much more youthful Arsenal side only a few short days ago,

No, it was just an all-round bad day. Tactics were maybe not spot-on and we were let down by too many below sub-performances. We may have gotten away with it if there had only been one or two players not at their best, but yesterday, the majority of the team were very much below par. Add those bad performances to the breaks that didn't go our way, including a nailed on penalty when John Terry was hauled over, neither of their goals should have stood - the first should have been chalked off for a handball and the second came from a foul that never was. And who would have believed that Frank Lampard would miss a penalty?

There may well have been more than an element of complacency. Otherwise it's difficult to explain how so many world-class players can simultaneously fail to perform to any kind of acceptable level, but I do not believe age to have been a decisive factor.

and how is this any different to the sides average age from last week when we beat arsenal? or has this one week extra made all the difference to them.

Last week was different because Le Arse couldn't match us in terms of height, strength and athleticism in the midfield.

Citeh could. And did.

Last week was different because Le Arse couldn't match us in terms of height, strength and athleticism in the midfield.

Citeh could. And did.

but thats got nothing to do with our age and more to do with a lack of cutting edge today. i think the age thing is a bit of a poor excuse to be honest, if they were poor it was more than likely other factors than age.

and how is this any different to the sides average age from last week when we beat arsenal? or has this one week extra made all the difference to them.

dkw, I note that when ever the question of age pops up you can always be relied upon to jump to the teams defence - fair play to you.

But at some point you'll have to accept that a number of our key players are not getting any younger. Sure one week we can steam roller teams aside and we often do, but now against Wigan, Villa and City - three teams that have not rolled over and matched us physically, we have come unstuck. Those conditions yesterday against a City side who were well up for it in pouring rain on a pitch heavy on the legs, they are not ideal conditions for a team with as many 30 + year olds as we have.

I thought it was ironic, that in a match where we could have really done with some younger fresh legs on the bench to try and turn the game, we didn't really have any. Very disappointed that Malouda and Joe weren't thrown on with at least 25 minutes to go.

I don't know where lack of a cutting edge fits into the argument. Last week we out-powered Arsenal in midfield. Yesterday Citeh out-powered us in midfield. Simple.

The only time that changed and we started to win the midfield battle was when Essien was let loose from his defensive holding role.

dkw, I note that when ever the question of age pops up you can always be relied upon to jump to the teams defence - fair play to you.

But at some point you'll have to accept that a number of our key players are not getting any younger. Sure one week we can steam roller teams aside and we often do, but now against Wigan, Villa and City - three teams that have not rolled over and matched us physically, we have come unstuck. Those conditions yesterday against a City side who were well up for it in pouring rain on a pitch heavy on the legs, they are not ideal conditions for a team with as many 30 + year olds as we have.

I thought it was ironic, that in a match where we could have really done with some younger fresh legs on the bench to try and turn the game, we didn't really have any. Very disappointed that Malouda and Joe weren't thrown on with at least 25 minutes to go.

why do i need to accept it? in my opinion the age thing is irrelevant, ballack, lampard etc are 2 of the fittest players in our squad. i do agree that the conditions maybe werent right for their style of play, but thats nothing to do with age. and i do think just has hit the nail on the head over why we struggled, and it was simply because essiens attacking instincts were curbed and i still dont think playing DM suits him. it just takes away so much of his game. ballack and lampard are very similar players, essien is the most powerful midfielder in the league with the ball at his feet and terrifies defences when running at them. for me carlo is using him incorrectly as a DM and needs to release him from that position to get the best out of him.

why do i need to accept it? in my opinion the age thing is irrelevant, ballack, lampard etc are 2 of the fittest players in our squad. i do agree that the conditions maybe werent right for their style of play, but thats nothing to do with age. and i do think just has hit the nail on the head over why we struggled, and it was simply because essiens attacking instincts were curbed and i still dont think playing DM suits him. it just takes away so much of his game. ballack and lampard are very similar players, essien is the most powerful midfielder in the league with the ball at his feet and terrifies defences when running at them. for me carlo is using him incorrectly as a DM and needs to release him from that position to get the best out of him.

What I mean is, accept that these players maybe still great on their day, but they cannot be expecxted to go on forever.Most of these players have peaked and will now be in decline. Do you honestly see us starting next season or the season after with Lampard, Ballack, Deco, Carvalho, Drogba and Anelka all in the starting line up? I certainly hope not.

What I mean is, accept that these players maybe still great on their day, but they cannot be expecxted to go on forever.Most of these players have peaked and will now be in decline. Do you honestly see us starting next season or the season after with Lampard, Ballack, Deco, Carvalho, Drogba and Anelka all in the starting line up? I certainly hope not.

no, i doubt we will start with them and expect them to retire or leave over the next couple of seasons. but i honestly dont think age has any relevance with regards to them at the moment. like i said, lampard is still one of the fittest players at the club.

I just don't see why Ballack and Deco should start in our team anymore. Ballack would be a useful asset to bring on if we're trying to hold onto a lead cause he adds a bit of strength and height, but he doesn't add much more to our game. Joe Cole is a much better player than Deco at the tip of the diamond, he has more skill, better passer of the ball and has good vision too. Our midfield should consist of Mikel/Essien/Lampard/Joey therefore, I think Mikel has been good this season whenever he's played. Or, if you still have doubts over Mikel, Malouda can easily be put in place of Mikel, putting Essien at the base, but he's wasted there IMO. It's a tough decision, because Malouda is one of our form players, even when he plays about 7 minutes, and putting Malouda on sacrifices Joey or Frank. If we sacrifice Frank, the fans will be mad. If we sacrifice Joey, Frank will be at the tip, and he's yet to prove himself there.

Hmm.

Perhaps we should consider switching back to the three-man midfield. That brought the best out of Lampard and Essien.

If all else fails, we could go for the Pirlo-Gattuso style midfield that Ancelotti had at AC Milan. So something like:

--------Deco---Mikel--------

----Essien---------Lampard--

----Anelka--------Drogba

It's obvious to me that our midfield is at its best when Essien is free from being at the base of the diamond. Otherwise he doesn't really influence the match the way he can and the other midfielders are rather flat. I wonder what would happen if we swapped Ballack and Essien and played Ballack as a holding midfielder?

I think I actually said it would be better to play a settle midfield as we saw at the end of last season. The old midfield got better playing every week under Gus. I'll repeat I don't think rotation suits the more mature professional. And Carlo, perhaps it's an Italian thing, is a tinkerman.

It's obvious to me that our midfield is at its best when Essien is free from being at the base of the diamond. Otherwise he doesn't really influence the match the way he can and the other midfielders are rather flat. I wonder what would happen if we swapped Ballack and Essien and played Ballack as a holding midfielder?

Would be a option probably. Anyways I want to see Mikel at the holding position. Lampard and Essien in front of him. And Joe Cole at the top of the diamond. Malouda deserves a spot at the moment, maybe we should try him at the top again, because Joe and especially Deco didn´t impress me so far

This is a laugh innit.

You lose one game against at Middle Eastlands having scalped my lot, Stretford & Dippers and now it's all wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Although you's didn't play well you could've nicked a point (and more if Dogsbra had his shooting boots on). And I bet if you had you'd've been saying "Carlo's got em grinding out results even when we're playing sh*te... That's the stuff of champions, is that! "

It's all about the reaction in the next game.

Jheeeeez, man up you lot.

This is a laugh innit.

You lose one game against at Middle Eastlands having scalped my lot, Stretford & Dippers and now it's all wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Although you's didn't play well you could've nicked a point (and more if Dogsbra had his shooting boots on). And I bet if you had you'd've been saying "Carlo's got em grinding out results even when we're playing sh*te... That's the stuff of champions, is that! "

It's all about the reaction in the next game.

Jheeeeez, man up you lot.

I don't think people are panicking, rather just identifying some weaknesses and discussing ways to improve or fix them.

If they did grind out the result yesterday, it would have been the stuff of champions. Unfortunately Chelsea gave away at least one point yesterday. If they continue to do that there won't be any championship on the horizon.

This is a laugh innit.

You lose one game against at Middle Eastlands having scalped my lot, Stretford & Dippers and now it's all wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Although you's didn't play well you could've nicked a point (and more if Dogsbra had his shooting boots on). And I bet if you had you'd've been saying "Carlo's got em grinding out results even when we're playing sh*te... That's the stuff of champions, is that! "

It's all about the reaction in the next game.

Jheeeeez, man up you lot.

This isn't knee-jerk stuff though. A fair number have been concerned about the age of our squad (or more importantly key players) for some time. If we start a game with six players who are over 30, we HAVE to have some young legs on the bench who will be able to change things.

And sooner rather than later, some of these 30+ players need to be replaced permanently. It needs to be done in stages as we're obviously not going to finish this season with them and replace them all in one foul swoop, but for me, at the end of the season, it has to be goodbye to Deco, Ballack, Carvalho & Belletti.

Anyway, you can talk. In the space of a few weeks, Wenger and his young boys have gone from being title contenders to no hopers and talk of Wenger has had his day etc!!

Agree with pretty much everything said in the original post. Furthermore, Essien should never be asked to hold again. As soon as he was freed from his holding role on Saturday, Man City went backwards, and he sent a great through ball to setup Drogba 1 on 1. I dare say in attack, he is more important than Lampard right now because he pushes the opposition back, create space for others, and his passing has improved a lot. If that means we have to play Mikel to accomodate Essien, so be it. Joe Cole situation is a bit strange, CA talked him up after his Blackburn, Wolve matches. As soon as Deco is fit, Cole is no where near the pitch.

This isn't knee-jerk stuff though. A fair number have been concerned about the age of our squad (or more importantly key players) for some time. If we start a game with six players who are over 30, we HAVE to have some young legs on the bench who will be able to change things.

And sooner rather than later, some of these 30+ players need to be replaced permanently. It needs to be done in stages as we're obviously not going to finish this season with them and replace them all in one foul swoop, but for me, at the end of the season, it has to be goodbye to Deco, Ballack, Carvalho & Belletti.

Anyway, you can talk. In the space of a few weeks, Wenger and his young boys have gone from being title contenders to no hopers and talk of Wenger has had his day etc!!

The media (and Wenger the mad fool) said we were title contenders. Not too many gooners actually thought we would mount a serious title challenge.

Unlike you "unstoppables".

This isn't knee-jerk stuff though. A fair number have been concerned about the age of our squad (or more importantly key players) for some time. If we start a game with six players who are over 30, we HAVE to have some young legs on the bench who will be able to change things.

And sooner rather than later, some of these 30+ players need to be replaced permanently. It needs to be done in stages as we're obviously not going to finish this season with them and replace them all in one foul swoop, but for me, at the end of the season, it has to be goodbye to Deco, Ballack, Carvalho & Belletti.

Anyway, you can talk. In the space of a few weeks, Wenger and his young boys have gone from being title contenders to no hopers and talk of Wenger has had his day etc!!

i agree wholeheartedly with you on replacing players,i think some of the posters act like certain players are gonna play on forever.lets not forget,if the price was right,carvalho,and deco would be playing for inter now,and as for belletti!.ballacks ego might get bruised too much if he`s used only in a relief pitcher-type capacity next season.hopefully with just under two-thirds left of the season to go we`ll give some more opportunities to the youngsters,thereby gaining much needed experience.

as for the gooner,go on arsenal mania(well you know what they say know thyne enemy)and you see how many of them whinge after a defeat.they always go on about how everybody writes them off,but most of those people are f***ing gooners.personally,i would never write them off after seeing first hand what kanu did to us.

Going back to what I said in December, we have no engine, we have no legs left, and we are growing increasingly old, and frustrated. Frustrated as many, or perhaps most, of our old players have been trying to win the big ears but have not been able to. Having come so close so many times, only rubs salt in their wounds.

Are they capable? Yes. Can they do it with the current squad? No.

We desperately need to freshen things up. If we are an army, then our general must sacrifice some of the front line ants, who are worn out, and bring in a fresh batch.

I would be shocked if we don't let 4-5 players go and bring in some special talent.

We need to sign the Sneijder's of the world - young, hungry, alive. Not the Deco's, old, done it all, closer to death.

Going back to what I said in December, we have no engine, we have no legs left, and we are growing increasingly old, and frustrated. Frustrated as many, or perhaps most, of our old players have been trying to win the big ears but have not been able to. Having come so close so many times, only rubs salt in their wounds.

Are they capable? Yes. Can they do it with the current squad? No.

We desperately need to freshen things up. If we are an army, then our general must sacrifice some of the front line ants, who are worn out, and bring in a fresh batch.

I would be shocked if we don't let 4-5 players go and bring in some special talent.

We need to sign the Sneijder's of the world - young, hungry, alive. Not the Deco's, old, done it all, closer to death.

i said that on an earlier topic we need to blood in the youngsters before its to late. tonight proved it. good post