So we've lost to United, Arsenal, Liverpool and will almost certainly lose to Spurs and City come the end of December, but does it matter?

Sure it's never nice to lose to the teams around you and rivals etc but I think many are forgetting this is a league. The fact is Liverpool are probably the 5th or 6th hardest game we will face, the team that finishes below them will be nowhere near as good.

Way too much emphasis is placed on these "big games". Without wanting to sound pedantic we have done better against Norwich and Swansea than any of the other so called "big 6" so far. These are the games that will get us top 4, not beating the likes of United and Liverpool.

I personally think we will lose home and away to all the other "big 6" or whetever it is but could still feasibly make top 4 because we are usually so good and killing off the best of the rest, flat track bullies if you like.

Feedback much appreciated.

so so so pessimistic. We lost to Arsenal in an absolute freak game, and it took a goal from a horrendous mistake near the death to put them 4-3 up and they snatched the 5th when we were throwing men forward. That united game was equally bizzare and on a different day could have been a totally different result. I know this is a forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinions but saying you think we will lose home and away to all the big 6 is just a ludicrous kneejerk of a statement.

Not neccesarily saying this to you here but all Chelsea fans nowadays demand success asap, AVB is attempting to lift the spirit of jose from the club and actually change the way we play, it is a work in progress and its going to take time. We are going to lose matches but if we stick by it, get off his back and give this very talented man a chance it could pay huge dividends in the long run.

It's not the big teams that we should be worried about...we can't beat anyone right now so everyone must be licking their lips at the thought of playing us....

so so so pessimistic. We lost to Arsenal in an absolute freak game, and it took a goal from a horrendous mistake near the death to put them 4-3 up and they snatched the 5th when we were throwing men forward. That united game was equally bizzare and on a different day could have been a totally different result. I know this is a forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinions but saying you think we will lose home and away to all the big 6 is just a ludicrous kneejerk of a statement.

Not neccesarily saying this to you here but all Chelsea fans nowadays demand success asap, AVB is attempting to lift the spirit of jose from the club and actually change the way we play, it is a work in progress and its going to take time. We are going to lose matches but if we stick by it, get off his back and give this very talented man a chance it could pay huge dividends in the long run.

I admit I am an eternal pessimist when it comes to Chelsea because of past experiences which we've all had (some worse than others) but can even the most optimistic Chelsea fan honestly say we look like a team that could avoid defeat at WHL or City?

I personally don't demand success. Winning trophies is just a bonus to me. I still maintain my best days watching Chelsea were pre-Roman and I stand by that. For me there is nothing better than unpredictability, highs and lows. Winning at Spurs, losing at Pride Park.

Obviously times have changed and given the amount invested in the club CL is a minimum requirement, but all I personally ask for is spirit, effort and commitment, the kind of spirit and effort Liverpool showed to today, and we didn't get that, and given the amount we spend on tickets or time invested in watching Chelsea via media etc this isn't good enough.

Even when I started supporting Chelsea when we were a lower half midtable outfit despite the gloryhunting Man U and Liverpool fans en masse I was always proud of my team win or lose, QPR and Man U away were the only times I have felt that.

As Sals has touched on, some of these games have been freakish. We didn't play well tonight and obviously have defensive problems that need to be ironed out. However we have also suffered some bad/freak luck. Against Liverpool 10 days ago we weren't anything special, but neither were they, we deserved a point. We probably deserved a point at Old Trafford and Arsenal at the bridge as well. On another day things will go differently. Last season at home to Arsenal could have easily been a draw if it hadn't have been for there poor finishing. Against spuds as well we looked 2nd best during the first half before Franks 'did it/didn't cross the line goal'.

It obviously isn't all down to luck, we do seem to have problems in the big games at the moment. There's a naivety to our tactics that the better sides have pounced on.

Of course it does matter that we are losing these big games, it's never nice. As you pointed out though Myles, we are picking up points against the rest. I just hope AVB has a plan B, Carlo's lack of a plan B was discussed to death last season and we could do without that again. He'll learn and who knows we might just get that little bit of luck against City in just under a fortnight.

I think we've held our own against Liverpool, and tonight we played a much changed side and still did well enough for about 3/4 of the game. This is the same liverpool side that should have beaten City at the weekend had it not been for some heroics from Hart in the city goal.

I think we may win a coupld of games against the other teams fighting it out for the top 4, and it will be a VERY close run thing for us to get in there. But I've not given up all hope of the top 4, yet.

Five defeats in nine...truly pathetic...it's like the chelsea I watched growing up...happy days!

Myles sorry but you are wrong, its how we do against the teams around us that will determine where we finish!

I think we've held our own against Liverpool, and tonight we played a much changed side and still did well enough for about 3/4 of the game.

Did you watch the game??? Liverpool wanted it more looked a much more of a threat and I wasn't remotely surprised that we lost!

I strongly believe the 'better' teams are taking advantage of our players not being good enough to adapt to AVB's tactics.

Against the likes of Norwich and West Brom earlier in the season they got behind our defence but didn't have the class to finish us off.

I am still behind AVB and fully understand his tactics. The players are not working hard enough or pressing from the front or midfield. Michael Essien will be perfect when fit it must be said.

When the defence 'fail to drop off' or leave huge gaps between the Centre Backs when we lose possession in midfield we are in trouble to pace or the counter attack.

No player defensively has yet mastered the art of defending with a high line. For me Terry, Bosingwa and Cole have been the most at fault.

Terry's slip against Arsenal was an example of Malouda getting the ball too deep and other defenders being too advanced or far apart.

The gaps between our Centre Backs the reason for so many clear chances for Norwich and West Brom.

If anything going from our rigid 433 has highlighted our team is not good enough to play anything else. Carlo tried to play differently and returned to 433 against his principles. AVB is therefore stronger as he will not relent and promises to continue to play his way.

Hopefully Roman will get this and realise sacking him ahead of selling those not capable or willing to adapt is a big mistake.

It's time we backed vision and forget the past in terms of trophies and the teams/formations in order to challenge for the top honours consistently again.

Barcelona and Real Madrid, even Bayern will rip us apart at the moment. I am worried about playing Spurs and Man City for obvious reasons, they too have the players to take advantage of our current position.

We need a right winger, we need 3 new defenders, all capable and aware of their roles in AVB's system.

I agree 100% with Star's post above, though personally I would actually prefer two natural wingers if possible which would give us the flexibility to free up Mata and Sturridge for more central roles if needed.

I strongly believe the 'better' teams are taking advantage of our players not being good enough to adapt to AVB's tactics.

Against the likes of Norwich and West Brom earlier in the season they got behind our defence but didn't have the class to finish us off.

I am still behind AVB and fully understand his tactics. The players are not working hard enough or pressing from the front or midfield. Michael Essien will be perfect when fit it must be said.

When the defence 'fail to drop off' or leave huge gaps between the Centre Backs when we lose possession in midfield we are in trouble to pace or the counter attack.

No player defensively has yet mastered the art of defending with a high line. For me Terry, Bosingwa and Cole have been the most at fault.

Terry's slip against Arsenal was an example of Malouda getting the ball too deep and other defenders being too advanced or far apart.

The gaps between our Centre Backs the reason for so many clear chances for Norwich and West Brom.

If anything going from our rigid 433 has highlighted our team is not good enough to play anything else. Carlo tried to play differently and returned to 433 against his principles. AVB is therefore stronger as he will not relent and promises to continue to play his way.

Hopefully Roman will get this and realise sacking him ahead of selling those not capable or willing to adapt is a big mistake.

It's time we backed vision and forget the past in terms of trophies and the teams/formations in order to challenge for the top honours consistently again.

Barcelona and Real Madrid, even Bayern will rip us apart at the moment. I am worried about playing Spurs and Man City for obvious reasons, they too have the players to take advantage of our current position.

We need a right winger, we need 3 new defenders, all capable and aware of their roles in AVB's system.

Great post Star, and I hope Roman is reading, but it begs the question why didn't the manager address these issues in the summer?

Given the limit on foreign-grown players, every signing we made would have required selling a first-team player (although we could have delayed one of those sales til January, given the Essien situation). To make more deals than he did, AVB would have had to spot which positions needed help and also which players could be let go without having seen the team play a single serious match - not completely impossible, but rushing that sort of thing is a good way to make mistakes in the transfer market.

Great post Star, and I hope Roman is reading, but it begs the question why didn't the manager address these issues in the summer?

Agree, above post good, I can only suggest that we obviously did get a couple of quality players in the summer, an assessment of current crop would have been needed, including the young, and that we really could be staring at a medium/long term project... [place a bet on AVB staying]

We made it too easy with high line and individual errors. We had our dominance in all the matches we have lost so far, however let down by inefficient tactics and poor individual errors. The arsenal match could have easily been a 8: 2 our way, had we took our chances and defend with a bit of purpose

Given the limit on foreign-grown players, every signing we made would have required selling a first-team player (although we could have delayed one of those sales til January, given the Essien situation).

Not strictly true Katon. We have room for two homegrown players, but regarding foreign players, yes you're right.

To make more deals than he did, AVB would have had to spot which positions needed help and also which players could be let go without having seen the team play a single serious match - not completely impossible, but rushing that sort of thing is a good way to make mistakes in the transfer market.

When Mourinho arrived, he asked for a DVD of every one of our games from the previous season, and on the basis of that undertook a massive overhaul, getting rid of players aplenty and bringing in players. He didn't mess about. Also, Mutu went shortly after. As soon as Jose realised he didn't want him, he ordered a drugs test. That was decisive management.

I heard Hasselbaink say that he was dispensed with without even getting a chance to impress in training. Jose called him into his office and said, "You won't play for me, find yourself another club". Same goes for lots of players, all of whom had to go. Jose didn't need time to evaluate. He knew what he wanted. He knew what he didn't want.

Andre has taken a far more pedestrian approach in this regard, perhaps sagely, and also due to the fact he arrived later in the summer than Mourinho (I think).

I strongly believe the 'better' teams are taking advantage of our players not being good enough to adapt to AVB's tactics.

Against the likes of Norwich and West Brom earlier in the season they got behind our defence but didn't have the class to finish us off.

I am still behind AVB and fully understand his tactics. The players are not working hard enough or pressing from the front or midfield. Michael Essien will be perfect when fit it must be said.

When the defence 'fail to drop off' or leave huge gaps between the Centre Backs when we lose possession in midfield we are in trouble to pace or the counter attack.

No player defensively has yet mastered the art of defending with a high line. For me Terry, Bosingwa and Cole have been the most at fault.

Terry's slip against Arsenal was an example of Malouda getting the ball too deep and other defenders being too advanced or far apart.

The gaps between our Centre Backs the reason for so many clear chances for Norwich and West Brom.

If anything going from our rigid 433 has highlighted our team is not good enough to play anything else. Carlo tried to play differently and returned to 433 against his principles. AVB is therefore stronger as he will not relent and promises to continue to play his way.

Hopefully Roman will get this and realise sacking him ahead of selling those not capable or willing to adapt is a big mistake.

It's time we backed vision and forget the past in terms of trophies and the teams/formations in order to challenge for the top honours consistently again.

Barcelona and Real Madrid, even Bayern will rip us apart at the moment. I am worried about playing Spurs and Man City for obvious reasons, they too have the players to take advantage of our current position.

We need a right winger, we need 3 new defenders, all capable and aware of their roles in AVB's system.

Well said work in progress lets hope that Roman see it that way too?.Does Newcastle count as a big team we will do them Saturday come on Chelsea ::ChELSeAFaN::

Did you watch the game??? Liverpool wanted it more looked a much more of a threat and I wasn't remotely surprised that we lost!

Yes I actually watched both games, just as I watch every game we play every weekend, and bar the toilet stealer's last gasp winner I though we played ok and matched Liverpool. Then we put out a much younger side in the carling cup, and for 3/4 of the game I thought we looked decent against a more experienced Liverpool one.

I'm not talking in my original post about who wanted it more, I'm just saying that I saw glimpses of us playing well. And this was against a side that should have beaten Man City had it not been for Hart. I'm just trying to stay optimistic that "city wont batter 6 past us"

Not strictly true Katon. We have room for two homegrown players, but regarding foreign players, yes you're right.

True, but there aren't really many homegrown players who'd help in the short term - Rodwell might have been nice if we could pry him off Everton, but our biggest squad needs at the moment are right-back, attacking midfield, and vaguely-in-form-centre-forward, and every homegrown player at those positions I'd actually want was already snapped up by one of the other CL teams at the point when AVB took over. Perhaps I should have said every worthwhile signing we could have made?

And the other thing to keep in mind is that with five senior contracts expiring at the end of this year, Summer 2012 is guaranteed to be a busy one in terms of players in and out - add in the number of kids we had who might be one year away from contributing (Kakuta/Bruma/apparently the club sees Josh in that category) and it makes a lot of sense to take more time to evaluate.