1 hour ago, PedroMendez said:

IMO, your point of Cahill being a 'limited' CB is quite mute and if anything VVD is more 'limited' in that he has the concentration span of a squirrel. When Gary signed he was considered one of the better ball playing CB in the league yet you seem slightly obsessed with his suppose lack of skill on the ball. Whilst he is not on par with a midfielder Gary is still one of the better defenders on the ball in the league, could you find better yes is that the main thing about being a CB no.

You also seem to think that because Christensen is young he is somehow incomplete, personally (from what I have seen of both) I think Christensen looks like the more mature CB out of him and VVD, and he seems more composed in possession and less error prone in defence.

IMO the only thing VVD has over the other 2 is his physical presence (which I think is the only real argument that can be put forward for the case of signing VVD) as I don't think he is a better ball player than either Christensen or Cahill and he certainly isn't a David Luiz on the ball.

Cahill is really poor on the ball. He gives the ball away a lot and he looks so uncomfortable. Yeah he can pass the ball side to side like all CBs but apart from that his not that good on the ball.

Just now, the special one said:

I think it's relevant because as you say we can both Christensen and VVD. Christensen is a right sided RCB, van Dijk LCB - for me it's a waste of time comparing the two because they specialise in different positions.

 

It's not a waste of time when you consider the fact that Azpi is probably Conte's most trusted player in that starting 11 and played every minute of every league game this season. Only the 4th outfield player to ever do that in the PL era. So RCB is pretty much locked up for Azpi except in matches we decide to rotate. 

We also have a right footed CB in Cahill playing at LCB, in other words, a right footed Christensen has more hope of playing at LCB considering how consistent Azpi is. And if we sign Van Dijk there, that affects Christensen's chances. Tht's why there's a debate. 

However, if we have a successful season next year, we'll play over 60 matches so I think there'll be times where we have to rotate and Christensen will get games to start. Which is why I've said having both Christensen and VVD is actually good.

4 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

 

We also have a right footed CB in Cahill playing at LCB, in other words, a right footed Christensen has more hope of playing at LCB considering how consistent Azpi is. And if we sign Van Dijk there, that affects Christensen's chances. Tht's why there's a debate.

Christensen at LCB? Sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree. For me Christensen has no hope at LCB but one simple reason, he's never played at LB (nor does have the characteristics to do so).

Edited May 26, 20179 yr by the special one

Just now, the special one said:

Christensen at LCB? Sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree. For me Christensen has no hope at LCB but one simple reason, he's never played at LB.

Cahill had never played on the right side of the defense in his career prior to this season and he's not even that good on the ball. And what does playing at LB have to do with that?

22 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Cahill had never played on the right side of the defense in his career prior to this season and he's not even that good on the ball. And what does playing at LB have to do with that?

Chiellini - has played at LB
van Dijk - has played at LB
Ake - has played at LB

Why do all 3 look as comfortable as they do in a back 3? Because they have experience at LB. A LCB in a back 3 needs the ability to cover for the wing backs when caught out of position.

Edited May 27, 20179 yr by the special one

1 minute ago, the special one said:

Chiellini - has played at LB
van Dijk - has played at LB
Ake - has played at LB

Why do all 3 look as comfortable as they do in a back 3? Because they have experience at LB. A LCB in a back 3 needs the ability to cover for the wing backs when they're caught out of position.

And what abilities are those that you think Christensen doesn't have? I'm curious.

32 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

You keep saying give him a season or two on loan like he hasn't been on loan for the last 2 years already. Not every loanee has the patience of Chalobah, Bertrand and co. Not every player's going to want to go on loan 5 times before being considered worthy enough. Over the past year, his father has repeatedly said he'll have 2 options this summer; either be a Chelsea player or get a permanent move elsewhere. How have you missed all those comments? Or do you think they're going to take another loan just to please Chelsea? The lad's got his own career to look after.

Then let him look after his own career we should be looking at our club and VVD is better, if he is impatient then he will take lukakus route, but either way he won't be starting at a top club next season his dad can give as many ultimatums as he wants, he isn't good enough to be starting at a top club next year, since people are suggesting he is as good as VVD we can expect 50 mil for him and no harm done 

17 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

And what abilities are those that you think Christensen doesn't have? I'm curious.

For me he doesn't the anticipation and pace necessary to be an effective LCB/LB - Cahill adapted to the role because not only is he a 'ball playing CB' but he also has the anticipation/pace/agility to excel in that position. I just don't think Christensen shares the same characteristics.

The point I'm trying to make is not everyone can be shoehorned into positions they're not comfortable with. Richard Dunne played at LCB for QPR in the Prem a few years ago, the back 3 was an epic fail.

Edited May 27, 20179 yr by the special one

9 minutes ago, DonAntonio said:

Then let him look after his own career we should be looking at our club and VVD is better, if he is impatient then he will take lukakus route, but either way he won't be starting at a top club next season his dad can give as many ultimatums as he wants, he isn't good enough to be starting at a top club next year, since people are suggesting he is as good as VVD we can expect 50 mil for him and no harm done 

What do you mean "if he is impatient"? When last were we patient with a young player? Were we patient with Lukaku or De Bruyne? We actually would have lost Courtois if we didn't make the hard decision of getting rid of Cech for him. Probably the one time we made the right move. If Christensen wasn't a Chelsea player, I'm sure some would have been lapping him up. When are we actually going to start giving our young players a chance? This season was the first time we even made some sort of effort to integrate some loan players like Chalobah and to a lesser extent Ake (not counting Moses). It's damaging to the morale of those out on loan if we continue to ignore them. I don't think Christensen is demanding to start every game either. Just a chance to play regular games and start here and there. That's not an outrageous demand for a bright young player.

17 minutes ago, the special one said:

For me he doesn't the anticipation and pace necessary to be an effective LB - Cahill adapted to the role because not only is he a 'ball playing CB' but he also has the pace/agility to excel in that position. I just don't think Christensen shares the same characteristics.

The point I'm trying to make is not everyone can be shoehorned into positions they're not comfortable with. Richard Dunne played at LCB for QPR in the Prem a few years ago, the back 3 was an epic fail.

Never seen anyone put 'pace' and 'Cahill' in the same sentence without a 'no' preceding the 'pace'.  

Come on mate. Cahill is fairly decent as far as pace goes, probably faster than JT but he's not as fast as Christensen. Cahill is also a decent ball playing CB for the level you would expect a CB to be at. He's not terrible but he's not great either or even very good. I'm starting to get the feeling that you haven't actually seen much of Christensen.

That QPR back 3 was down to Arry not knowing f**k all about the system. It was an all round epic fail across the board.

27 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

What do you mean "if he is impatient"? When last were we patient with a young player? Were we patient with Lukaku or De Bruyne? We actually would have lost Courtois if we didn't make the hard decision of getting rid of Cech for him. Probably the one time we made the right move. If Christensen wasn't a Chelsea player, I'm sure some would have been lapping him up. When are we actually going to start giving our young players a chance? This season was the first time we even made some sort of effort to integrate some loan players like Chalobah and to a lesser extent Ake (not counting Moses). It's damaging to the morale of those out on loan if we continue to ignore them. I don't think Christensen is demanding to start every game either. Just a chance to play regular games and start here and there. That's not an outrageous demand for a bright young player.

Problem is conte likes a settled squad I just don't think he will get what he is looking for next season, the demand on managers to win or lose their jobs put them in an impossible position where they can't play youth unless they are extremely  good and a senior player is injured like rashford 

hate to tell you but we are going 4 at the back next season 

9 minutes ago, Scott said:

hate to tell you but we are going 4 at the back next season 

10 minutes ago, DonAntonio said:

Problem is conte likes a settled squad I just don't think he will get what he is looking for next season, the demand on managers to win or lose their jobs put them in an impossible position where they can't play youth unless they are extremely  good and a senior player is injured like rashford 

He played the same 11 most of the season because we were out of the League Cup early and had no European football. It was convenient to do so. Next season will be a lot more brutal as far as fatigue goes. The Christmas period in the league promises to be even more tasking than last year's. It's not impossible to integrate Christensen into the team next season.

8 hours ago, DonAntonio said:

What has the weakest link got to do with anything, garry is a top bloke and proper Chelsea but he is a limited CB, so when looking to upgrade the weakest in the line is where you will upgrade so that has everything to do with new players coming in, that's why it's called strengthening, you identify a weakness and strengthen its not complicated, VVD I said better than garry, so if one of those back three go it's not Dave, except if he moves and it's not luiz who was exceptional and a far better footballer, so yes if we started conceding he would find his place under threat before the other 2, that's just reality 

You forgot to add, "in my opinion". VVD is not better than GC. So thats my point, we are hardly strengthening. Also, if GC goes out for VVD, who is the leader on the pitch?

Hazard? Lukaku/Morata? Pedro? Kante? new CM? Moses? Alonso? Simply none except for luiz, infact. All of these factors which you are unwilling to take into consideration.

If cahill is a "weakness", I would gladly accept 10 more weaknesses as strong as him on the pitch.

8 hours ago, the special one said:

GC will be 32 going on 33 next season. VvD is succession planning, taking a punt on Ake is gambling.

Shelf life of a CB is much higher. 32 at the start of the next season is not so worrying.

9 hours ago, PedroMendez said:

I don't think he is a better ball player than Cahill

4 hours ago, didierforever said:

You forgot to add, "in my opinion". VVD is not better than GC. So thats my point, we are hardly strengthening. Also, if GC goes out for VVD, who is the leader on the pitch?

Hazard? Lukaku/Morata? Pedro? Kante? new CM? Moses? Alonso? Simply none except for luiz, infact. All of these factors which you are unwilling to take into consideration.

If cahill is a "weakness", I would gladly accept 10 more weaknesses as strong as him on the pitch.

Terry was asked that specific question in his last interview and yes it would be luiz he said the biggest influences in the changing room once he is gone will be garry, luiz and fab, the fact you think Garry Cahill is better than VVD shows me there is no ground we can make here, we have to agree to disagree but I think you will be in your own with that one. 

Edited May 27, 20179 yr by DonAntonio

In this thread I have heard that garry Cahill is a ball playing centre back, he is fast and agile and that he is better than VVD, it makes me wonder if some people watch football 

1 hour ago, DonAntonio said:

In this thread I have heard that garry Cahill is a ball playing centre back, he is fast and agile and that he is better than VVD, it makes me wonder if some people watch football 

You do realise that people are allowed to have a difference of opinion to you and still watch the sport.

TBH the same could easily be said for your opinions on VVD, Christensen and even GARY Cahill as your opinions also verge on the extreme.

At 21 Christensen all ready has international and champions league experience at CB and you seem to want to write him off.

Gary Cahill is, whether you like it or not, one of the most decorated English CB in the premier league era yet you seem to rubbish him at every given juncture.

And you seem to be of the opinion that VVD is currently one of the best CB in the BPL, due to a season and a half at Southampton.   

All of which could easily be seen as complete trollop in someone else's eyes.

Christensen whenever I have watched him (less so this season, a reasonable amount last season), looks comfortable on the ball and decent defensively has also looked extremely mature for someone so young, and would make a very able rotation choice next season with a ceiling that is seemingly top class. 

Cahill, has been brilliant since the switch to 3 at the back, has won pretty much every major club trophy in this country and has a fantastic mentality something which will set him apart from most defenders. He is technically capable and whilst not in the top bracket, he still counts as good on the ball for a Premier league CB. Whilst not rapid he is reasonably quick for a BPL CB. And quite frankly whatever way you look at it Cahill has had a much better season than VVD (both individually and as part of a team) and I would still consider him a much better CB than VVD. 

Admittedly I have only watched VVD a few times this season and a few more times last season but every time I have watched him he hasn't seemed overly impressive or at least he hasn't lived up to the media hype (it felt similar to when I was watching Stones 2-3 seasons ago) and the ability you seem to portray him as having.

For me he didn't look particularly better on the ball than players like Cahill, Phil Jagielka and even Jose Fonte, and looked a step below Azpi let alone Luiz,.
His passing range looked decent, probably a step above Cahill/Azpi, but for me it didn't merit the song and dance it was receiving in the media, and frankly was a long way of someone like David Luiz, and I'd even say someone like Mawson for Swansea has impressed me more in terms of passing range this season and I wouldn't call him a Ball Playing CB (my missus is a Swans season ticket holder so there may be a little bias).
He does look physically impressive and dominant in the air, something which he does have over Cahill and actually most of the league, and is certainly an area which technically competent defenders often seem to lack (for me this is his selling point, he isn't dissimilar technically but would be an upgrade physically over Cahill, Azpi and Christensen). However he is error prone and I think this will be magnified a lot more at a bigger team (e.g similar to the step taken by Lovren, Stones and even Cahill himself). 
I can't make a comment on his mentality as this doesn't really get tested at a team like Southampton, so this is still a question mark.
To me he seems on a similar level to Ashley Williams. 

Again I don't watch him week in week out so this isn't a complete opinion but for me his technical ability seems overplayed and overhyped.

He has also had half a season out injured and may take a while to regain form. Would be a decent signing but I don't think he improves our first team, and personally I would prefer the £50m figure quoted be spent elsewhere as we have rotation options all ready free of charge. 

1 hour ago, DonAntonio said:

In this thread I have heard that garry Cahill is a ball playing centre back, he is fast and agile and that he is better than VVD, it makes me wonder if some people watch football 

He may not have ball playing skills like Luiz, but the way you make him sound is like he is Mertasacker. He is not a slouch nor is he superfast but how many times has he saved us with last ditch tackles/clearance? He can use the ball quite well. I don't see how you don't see this. If he was that bad on the ball, he would not be playing. Part of the reason why I think Zouma is now behind likes of Ake. Conte wants reliable defenders but also defenders who can use the ball.

14 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

You do realise that people are allowed to have a difference of opinion to you and still watch the sport.

TBH the same could easily be said for your opinions on VVD, Christensen and even GARY Cahill as your opinions also verge on the extreme.

At 21 Christensen all ready has international and champions league experience at CB and you seem to want to write him off.

Gary Cahill is, whether you like it or not, one of the most decorated English CB in the premier league era yet you seem to rubbish him at every given juncture.

And you seem to be of the opinion that VVD is currently one of the best CB in the BPL, due to a season and a half at Southampton.   

All of which could easily be seen as complete trollop in someone else's eyes.

Christensen whenever I have watched him (less so this season, a reasonable amount last season), looks comfortable on the ball and decent defensively has also looked extremely mature for someone so young, and would make a very able rotation choice next season with a ceiling that is seemingly top class. 

Cahill, has been brilliant since the switch to 3 at the back, has won pretty much every major club trophy in this country and has a fantastic mentality something which will set him apart from most defenders. He is technically capable and whilst not in the top bracket, he still counts as good on the ball for a Premier league CB. Whilst not rapid he is reasonably quick for a BPL CB. And quite frankly whatever way you look at it Cahill has had a much better season than VVD (both individually and as part of a team) and I would still consider him a much better CB than VVD. 

Admittedly I have only watched VVD a few times this season and a few more times last season but every time I have watched him he hasn't seemed overly impressive or at least he hasn't lived up to the media hype (it felt similar to when I was watching Stones 2-3 seasons ago) and the ability you seem to portray him as having.

For me he didn't look particularly better on the ball than players like Cahill, Phil Jagielka and even Jose Fonte, and looked a step below Azpi let alone Luiz,.
His passing range looked decent, probably a step above Cahill/Azpi, but for me it didn't merit the song and dance it was receiving in the media, and frankly was a long way of someone like David Luiz, and I'd even say someone like Mawson for Swansea has impressed me more in terms of passing range this season and I wouldn't call him a Ball Playing CB (my missus is a Swans season ticket holder so there may be a little bias).
He does look physically impressive and dominant in the air, something which he does have over Cahill and actually most of the league, and is certainly an area which technically competent defenders often seem to lack (for me this is his selling point, he isn't dissimilar technically but would be an upgrade physically over Cahill, Azpi and Christensen). However he is error prone and I think this will be magnified a lot more at a bigger team (e.g similar to the step taken by Lovren, Stones and even Cahill himself). 
I can't make a comment on his mentality as this doesn't really get tested at a team like Southampton, so this is still a question mark.
To me he seems on a similar level to Ashley Williams. 

Again I don't watch him week in week out so this isn't a complete opinion but for me his technical ability seems overplayed and overhyped.

He has also had half a season out injured and may take a while to regain form. Would be a decent signing but I don't think he improves our first team, and personally I would prefer the £50m figure quoted be spent elsewhere as we have rotation options all ready free of charge. 

Difference of opinion is one thing, saying Garry is a better ball playing CB than VVD is like me being against torres going so saying he is more clinical than deigo, what adds to it is after having made these totally inaccurate claims you self admittedly haven't watched the players you are on one hand promoting and on teh other comparing Garry to. I like GC, I like his dedication and attitude but we have known for a while he isn't good enough, the system flattered him,  having 3 CB's and kante in front worked for him, if he is faced up one on one he is useless, if we decide to switch to a back 4 he is just not good enough, he is certainly a good CB if he wasn't he wouldnt start for chelsea but he isnt good enough for what we want to do at the club.  The reason there is media hype behind VVD is because he is outstanding, the reason top clubs want him and that his price tag is so high is because he is outstanding, this nonsense about he has had 2 seasons...he has had 6 seasons of first team football, captains a good PL team and is a full dutch international, btw did you know who kante was 2 seasons ago? 

4 minutes ago, STATS said:

He may not have ball playing skills like Luiz, but the way you make him sound is like he is Mertasacker. He is not a slouch nor is he superfast but how many times has he saved us with last ditch tackles/clearance? He can use the ball quite well. I don't see how you don't see this. If he was that bad on the ball, he would not be playing. Part of the reason why I think Zouma is now behind likes of Ake. Conte wants reliable defenders but also defenders who can use the ball.

This is the point, the reason we struggle against high press teams is this system requires us to be able to play out quick and distribute allowing the wb's to push forward,  this is how tottenham, city and liverpool dominated the ball against us, Azpi is decent not brilliant and Gary is decent not brilliant, in this system you need very good ball playing CB's to be able to keep hold of the ball and move it around pressing opposition, now Gary can pass quite well but his composure on the ball and decision making at speed is not good, hence swansea and arsenal 2 games in a row, when put under pressure, cost us goals, now he has kante in front of him and luiz's main job is to sweep up behind him, he said that himself in a recent interview, with a top DM in front,  a top CB behind you and the best defender in the league as a third CB we still managed to go 11 games without a clean sheet, Chelsea is built round a top defence, last year we saw Gary in a back 4 with JT who understandably has lost his pace, and an off form Matic in front of him, we got turned inside out, even the arsenal game this season, same CB's in a 4 we got opened, the system is hiding his limitations, as much as I like him, the honest truth is he isn't quite good enough for us to compete with the top teams in Europe, and not get dominated on the ball at home by any decent side who can press, in general context yes he had a great season ,PFA team of the year, yes he is a good CB, good leader, no arguing with that, however in the context of a top 5 in Europe defence which is what we have always had in our years of success, he isn't good enough, in terms of being a CB with top ball playing skills which this system needs he isn't good enough, Luiz as good as he has been and I was a huge advocate for him if you go back through the threads and still am, couldn't get in to the PSG team, yet he has been one of the best CB's in our league, Garry wouldn't get a sniff at any top team in Europe, so how do we expect to be competing in the CL with the best, our current team would get smashed by the Real Madrids, Barca and Bayern's we need to upgrade, and to make our back line top we need a top CB and I think teh club has prioritised that position for a reason, we are chelsea our game is built on impermiable defence and counter, we have an italian manager playing italian style football, we need the best defence in the business is gary good yes, he is good but he is Audi good and we need Bentley good. 

I wouldn't just sign VVD to challenge Cahill personally, but also to challenge Luiz. If I was in Cahill's shoes I wouldn't be too concerned with Ake as my understudy tbh, VVD and i'd be fearful of my place. Survival of the fittest is how Conte rolls.

1 hour ago, PedroMendez said:

You do realise that people are allowed to have a difference of opinion to you and still watch the sport.

TBH the same could easily be said for your opinions on VVD, Christensen and even GARY Cahill as your opinions also verge on the extreme.

At 21 Christensen all ready has international and champions league experience at CB and you seem to want to write him off.

Gary Cahill is, whether you like it or not, one of the most decorated English CB in the premier league era yet you seem to rubbish him at every given juncture.

And you seem to be of the opinion that VVD is currently one of the best CB in the BPL, due to a season and a half at Southampton.   

All of which could easily be seen as complete trollop in someone else's eyes.

Christensen whenever I have watched him (less so this season, a reasonable amount last season), looks comfortable on the ball and decent defensively has also looked extremely mature for someone so young, and would make a very able rotation choice next season with a ceiling that is seemingly top class. 

Cahill, has been brilliant since the switch to 3 at the back, has won pretty much every major club trophy in this country and has a fantastic mentality something which will set him apart from most defenders. He is technically capable and whilst not in the top bracket, he still counts as good on the ball for a Premier league CB. Whilst not rapid he is reasonably quick for a BPL CB. And quite frankly whatever way you look at it Cahill has had a much better season than VVD (both individually and as part of a team) and I would still consider him a much better CB than VVD. 

Admittedly I have only watched VVD a few times this season and a few more times last season but every time I have watched him he hasn't seemed overly impressive or at least he hasn't lived up to the media hype (it felt similar to when I was watching Stones 2-3 seasons ago) and the ability you seem to portray him as having.

For me he didn't look particularly better on the ball than players like Cahill, Phil Jagielka and even Jose Fonte, and looked a step below Azpi let alone Luiz,.
His passing range looked decent, probably a step above Cahill/Azpi, but for me it didn't merit the song and dance it was receiving in the media, and frankly was a long way of someone like David Luiz, and I'd even say someone like Mawson for Swansea has impressed me more in terms of passing range this season and I wouldn't call him a Ball Playing CB (my missus is a Swans season ticket holder so there may be a little bias).
He does look physically impressive and dominant in the air, something which he does have over Cahill and actually most of the league, and is certainly an area which technically competent defenders often seem to lack (for me this is his selling point, he isn't dissimilar technically but would be an upgrade physically over Cahill, Azpi and Christensen). However he is error prone and I think this will be magnified a lot more at a bigger team (e.g similar to the step taken by Lovren, Stones and even Cahill himself). 
I can't make a comment on his mentality as this doesn't really get tested at a team like Southampton, so this is still a question mark.
To me he seems on a similar level to Ashley Williams. 

Again I don't watch him week in week out so this isn't a complete opinion but for me his technical ability seems overplayed and overhyped.

He has also had half a season out injured and may take a while to regain form. Would be a decent signing but I don't think he improves our first team, and personally I would prefer the £50m figure quoted be spent elsewhere as we have rotation options all ready free of charge. 

Dont bother. 

VVD is the next coming of Beckenbeaur.