52 minutes ago, RMH said:

I interpreted your first post as you being in agreement with Alonso in that "the main thing is the quality of the players". Sorry if I misinterpreted you. In my opinion, both things are important, tactics is the scaffold to approach a game, get it right and the quality of the players will do the winning. But with a wrong tactic, the quality of the players might not be enough to beat the opposition.

Of course both are important but as alonso said player quality is always the main thing. Let's just use arse 1st goal example. 

In this case, even with Cucu mistake we still had 4 chances to stop the goal from happening but nobody reacted correctly. 

But let's say we play a crazy system where we let our fb goes 1 v 1 against Saka in free space. It is crazy but if saka cannot beat my fb it doesn't matter. 

 

Edited May 30, 20242 yr by Bob stark

41 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Of course both are important but as alonso said player quality is always the main thing. Let's just use arse 1st goal example. 

In this case, even with Cucu mistake we still had 4 chances to stop the goal from happening but nobody reacted correctly. 

But let's say we play a crazy system where we let our fb goes 1 v 1 against Saka in free space. It is crazy but if saka cannot beat my fb it doesn't matter. 

 

But, what is your opinion? Because it reads like you are in agreement with Alonso but then your arguments are not in agreement. In that first Arse goal, a good tactical training would have placed Cucurella closer to Saka, Enzo and Madueke would also know where to be, and then it is just down to the quality of the Arsenal players. That's what I'm saying. If you don't coach tactically your players, the opposition will get past you with ease independently of their quality, because the players will be all over the place; if you coach tactically your players, it will exclusively be down to the quality of the player and, in the Arse example Cucurella could have touched the ball to impede Saka a clear reception of the ball or anticipated Saka had he been well drilled tactically.

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Due to complaint by @WhiteWall

Let me redo my reply. Instead of alonso, let's use Lamp vs TT, so much easier because I have only watched leverkusen under alonso once. 

Tammy 

Puli - Mount - Kai - Ziyech 

Kante 

Chilwell - Rudi - Silva - James 

 

Mount - Kai - Timo 

Chilwell - Jorgi - Kante - James 

Rudi - Silva - Azpi 

TT replaced 3 players and he transformed a team who can't defend to a defensive juggernaut almost overnight. 

How? He replaced two attackers with two defender. 

 

 

 

 

That's fair analysis except as far as it goes except that you have put Rudigier in both teams when in fact Zouma played under Lampard and the disharmony that caused was an issue I am guessing.

However although the replacement of useless attackers who got in the way of the fullbacks  with Jorgi and Azpi was partly what caused the improvement I think it was more than that. I thin Tuchel got those players to buy into the change, made them pay attention to detail and the tougher character of Jorge and Azpi compared to the guys they replaced also contributed. 

So in that moment you had change of formation, change of players, change in off field approach, change in on field will power. So it was leadership from Tuchel, knowing what to do, and getting the team to do it that made the difference. All the elements combined and can be summed up, in my view, as effective leadership. Like many a leader though the standards that Tuchel demanded could only be maintained for a while and dropped away quite quickly after the champions league possibly because the players in the end could only maintain that level for half a season, eg Azpi.

Edited May 30, 20242 yr by ozboy

21 hours ago, ozboy said:

That's fair analysis except as far as it goes except that you have put Rudigier in both teams when in fact Zouma played under Lampard and the disharmony that caused was an issue I am guessing.

However although the replacement of useless attackers who got in the way of the fullbacks  with Jorgi and Azpi was partly what caused the improvement I think it was more than that. I thin Tuchel got those players to buy into the change, made them pay attention to detail and the tougher character of Jorge and Azpi compared to the guys they replaced also contributed. 

So in that moment you had change of formation, change of players, change in off field approach, change in on field will power. So it was leadership from Tuchel, knowing what to do, and getting the team to do it that made the difference. All the elements combined and can be summed up, in my view, as effective leadership. Like many a leader though the standards that Tuchel demanded could only be maintained for a while and dropped away quite quickly after the champions league possibly because the players in the end could only maintain that level for half a season, eg Azpi.

 

The dropped off got nothing to do with standard. We we were top of the league and Chilwell went down. We started to decline and then James went down and it was over.

 

 

On 30/05/2024 at 18:57, RMH said:

But, what is your opinion? Because it reads like you are in agreement with Alonso but then your arguments are not in agreement. In that first Arse goal, a good tactical training would have placed Cucurella closer to Saka, Enzo and Madueke would also know where to be, and then it is just down to the quality of the Arsenal players. That's what I'm saying. If you don't coach tactically your players, the opposition will get past you with ease independently of their quality, because the players will be all over the place; if you coach tactically your players, it will exclusively be down to the quality of the player and, in the Arse example Cucurella could have touched the ball to impede Saka a clear reception of the ball or anticipated Saka had he been well drilled tactically.

Of course I agree with Alonso. Every single manager will agree with Alonso. Let's use arse 1st goal example. 

If we want to analyze this pic in detail 

In this pic, the game is actually 3 v 3 (you can make it 5v5 but 3v3 is enough). White, partey, ode vs Conor, mudryk and Caicedo. 

Chelsea tactic is Gallagher high inside blocking the passing lane to the inside (Partey), mudryk high wide blocking the pass to wide area with Caicedo act as cover. 

But as alonso said, system is just a picture and the game is a movie. White is on the ball moving and trying to feed partey and ode who are moving around try to get the ball. Conor, mudryk n caicedo are also moving around preventing the ball to get forward. 

That is it. No 352, no 433, no inverted fb, it even sound more like a kids game. Arse goal is to get the ball forward, Chelsea goal is to prevent that. 

So you play 3 v 3 in training to improve player but you don't just improve magically otherwise all player are wc at everything 😂😂😂

Edited May 31, 20242 yr by Bob stark

Arsenal away was more down to a lack of mental preparation vs tactics. It became even worse the second half, unsurprisingly. 

Never in my life have I seen a collective display of poor individual performances. Off of a promising cup semi final at that. 

All of this back and forth on tactics, system, and slight tweaks here and there - do not address what I think was the biggest problem under Poch (and  variously under potter, tuchel, sarri and conte)

That problem is this general mentality that it is ok to pass the ball 500 times between our CBs. 

It is not ok!

It is unimaginative, negative, unprogressive - and most of the time it is a case of holding possession for the sake of it.

This lazy play also breeds a mindset that it is ok to play at half pace. Which then seeps into longer term performances, and in my mind creates a lazy lassez-faire attitude. It often feels like the players go. "oh it's ok if i don't need to try or bust a gut - I can knock it backwards and all will be ok".

It has to stop. 

If the players are told to stop the constant sideways and backwards sh*t - and actually have a go and play at full speed - then i think much of the broad debate about tactics and systems stops. 

Edited June 1, 20242 yr by nonotnowjim

10 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

All of this back and forth on tactics, system, and slight tweaks here and there - do not address what I think was the biggest problem under Poch (and  variously under potter, tuchel, sarri and conte)

That problem is this general mentality that it is ok to pass the ball 500 times between our CBs. 

It is not ok!

It is unimaginative, negative, unprogressive - and most of the time it is a case of holding possession for the sake of it.

This lazy play also breeds a mindset that it is ok to play at half pace. Which then seeps into longer term performances, and in my mind creates a lazy lassez-faire attitude. It often feels like the players go. "oh it's ok if i don't need to try or bust a gut - I can knock it backwards and all will be ok".

It has to stop. 

If the players are told to stop the constant sideways and backwards sh*t - and actually have a go and play at full speed - then i think much of the broad debate about tactics and systems stops. 

Andr the more general point that management is about more than player ability, tactics, systems or even the inevitable individual errors "to err is human". it's about motivation, training, belief, support for each other, a shared common purpose and a belief it can be achieved. Tactics and systems are are only the means by which the war is carried on.

 

16 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

All of this back and forth on tactics, system, and slight tweaks here and there - do not address what I think was the biggest problem under Poch (and  variously under potter, tuchel, sarri and conte)

That problem is this general mentality that it is ok to pass the ball 500 times between our CBs. 

It is not ok!

It is unimaginative, negative, unprogressive - and most of the time it is a case of holding possession for the sake of it.

This lazy play also breeds a mindset that it is ok to play at half pace. Which then seeps into longer term performances, and in my mind creates a lazy lassez-faire attitude. It often feels like the players go. "oh it's ok if i don't need to try or bust a gut - I can knock it backwards and all will be ok".

It has to stop. 

If the players are told to stop the constant sideways and backwards sh*t - and actually have a go and play at full speed - then i think much of the broad debate about tactics and systems stops. 

How do you play with full speed when the opp just sit back and there is no space to play behind? 

This is the type of opp that we play 80/90% of the time. Opp manager is not stupid. 0-0 is a very good result for most of them. 

If you want the space, you need to allow your opp to attack you. Can the like of Palmer, Nkunku, Mudryk, madueke track opp fb week in week out? The answer so far is a big no.

Can the like of gusto and cucu, defend vs constant far post crossess? Also big no.

Can enzo defend as midfielder again and again? No. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

How do you play with full speed when the opp just sit back and there is no space to play behind? 

This is the type of opp that we play 80/90% of the time. Opp manager is not stupid. 0-0 is a very good result for most of them. 

If you want the space, you need to allow your opp to attack you. Can the like of Palmer, Nkunku, Mudryk, madueke track opp fb week in week out? The answer so far is a big no.

Can the like of gusto and cucu, defend vs constant far post crossess? Also big no.

Can enzo defend as midfielder again and again? No. 

 

 

 

You beat a deep sitting defence, the same way you have always done..... 

1) by lots of movement and runs by our attackers, which pulls their defenders out of position 

2) by moving the ball quickly into and around the final third of the pitch

3) By constant pressure - creating overloads, getting the ball out wide and getting it into the box.

 

This is all pretty standard stuff - and I am clearly no tactical genius like you.... 

but 1 thing i am certain of.

4) you DO NOT break down a deep lying defence by passing it around - at walking pace like we do -  500 times with 2 yrd passes between your CBs. This constant slow and lazy football just plays into the hands of the opposition. They WANT our CBs to keep possession because they know we can't score from there....so we must progress faster up the pitch. 

Tactic. Adjust to circumstances, opponent and trust the players especially when they are Real Madrid players. 
 

https://www.wsj.com/sports/soccer/real-madrid-champions-league-carlo-ancelotti-4aad1086?mod=hp_listb_pos1

There is no "vs". Tactics and players are not mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed. Good tactics get the best out of players and help them play beyond their level. The notion than you can move players around like a chessboard or that you can define their role in neat categories befitting a specific Italian word is outdated and cringeworthy, to be honest. So too, the idea that players somehow operate in a vacuum free of tactics, instructions, motivation or mentality.

Tactical analyses are merely post-hoc conclusions subject to the reviewer's confirmation bias - in short, you can say whatever you want to say about a player and find "evidence" to support your conclusion that it was caused by a particular tactic. Player analyses reduce performance to a series of observations (either statistically or 'eye-test', which is also a statistical measure...) that ignore important context and the value of missing information. Given these analyses are so flawed, it is meaningless to try and argue one is more important than other.

Tuchel's tactics were great at Chelsea, at least until they...weren't. Then it was the players' fault. Same with Potter, Pochettino and every manager in Chelsea's history yet to some extent most of football success has come with one manager winning trophies with another manager's core squad. There has got to be some onus on managers to develop 'tactics' that are flexible enough to accommodate a wide variety of players, rather than relying on a hyper-specific set of skills that has no guarantee in translating across clubs let alone leagues or countries. By the same token, there are also some players that are just so poor no one is able to get a tune out of them (Torres, Bakayoko etc.) and trying to accommodate them 'tactically' is futile. Great managers are able to see both of these issues and crucially, actually take action to address it instead of letting is fester - board interference notwithstanding!

I think the best ways of playing are those that only require exceptional players to do very simple things. When players are playing within their skillset, it is less physically and cognitively taxing on them. They can play with a certain level of automaticity that allows them to remain sharp, fit and focused for the key moments in a game. Guardiola's City have 5-6 players capable of threading a needle from 30 yards and they have the best striker in the world, but 80% of the time they play 5 yard pass-and-move and the striker only has to finish tap-ins. Ancelotti has some of the best possession players in the world yet they are happy to invite pressure and play on the counter-attack, because it gets the best out of their forwards. The system leaves room for their players to be exceptional where it is required because they always know there is more to their game.

Of course, that too is also only part of it. You also have to breed a winning mentality, it is not sufficient to have the potential of extra gears, you need to coach you players to know when to use them.

 

In the cl final Vinicius was goofing round in h1, trying it on with the ref for the benefit of the tv cameras. I expect the manager gave him and a few others “what for” at the break and they then stepped it up. Quite funny really. 

Another analysis, this time vs the worse team in pl Sheffield United. 

It started with this. We had 5 v 4 on the left hand side. There was 0 danger here. 

But Palmer decided defending is not his job. It started from 5 v 4 and it ended up with

3 v 3 with free ball carrier close to your box. Either Cucu or Caicedo need to engange here. 

They didn't get close enough, sheffield united passed the ball to the box,  got a shot but nice block by Chalobah. 

2 min later 

I don't have to tell you who is the free man here and who you want to close down that free man. 😁😁

 

It is not a big problem this time but preferably you want Caicedo to engange ball carrier more. Not ideal but not the end of the world. 

Cucu can clearly see a runner. 2 v 2 in the box, no problem 

How you can end up with this situation is 🫣🫣🫣

 

I don't want to create a new thread so I am just going to use this one. 

I want to post a few screenshot of our game vs west ham because West Ham pressing vs us is one of the worst oop I have ever seen 

53 seconds in and you have Kudus marking ghost with Cucu free in the middle 

1:29, again Enzo free in the middle with west ham player marking ghost

Summerville is marking ghost, Enzo free in the middle. 

I said in match thread that we did very well using press bait but not sure this is even a press bait, this is amateur level pressing. 

54 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I don't want to create a new thread so I am just going to use this one. 

I want to post a few screenshot of our game vs west ham because West Ham pressing vs us is one of the worst oop I have ever seen 

53 seconds in and you have Kudus marking ghost with Cucu free in the middle 

1:29, again Enzo free in the middle with west ham player marking ghost

Summerville is marking ghost, Enzo free in the middle. 

I said in match thread that we did very well using press bait but not sure this is even a press bait, this is amateur level pressing. 

Yep. WH are a mess. Moyes' boring but often effective low block + counter attack replaced by, well, nothing much. Somerville in particular is a lazy bugger, flicks and tricks, clueless defensively. As per his Leeds days.

Edited September 24, 20241 yr by dermott

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I don't want to create a new thread so I am just going to use this one. 

I want to post a few screenshot of our game vs west ham because West Ham pressing vs us is one of the worst oop I have ever seen 

53 seconds in and you have Kudus marking ghost with Cucu free in the middle 

1:29, again Enzo free in the middle with west ham player marking ghost

Summerville is marking ghost, Enzo free in the middle. 

I said in match thread that we did very well using press bait but not sure this is even a press bait, this is amateur level pressing. 

No bob - we won because Jackson is a world class striker, and destroyed the wet spam game plan single handedly (did you not get the memo or read his thread?)

 

Edited September 24, 20241 yr by nonotnowjim

10 hours ago, dermott said:

Yep. WH are a mess. Moyes' boring but often effective low block + counter attack replaced by, well, nothing much. Somerville in particular is a lazy bugger, flicks and tricks, clueless defensively. As per his Leeds days.

Agree moyes must be lmao watching that game. 

Watching the game live, everything felt very easy, maybe it was some clever movement or some nice tactic. I am completely wrong, it was more of amateur level pressing by west ham. 

I saw some clip, it thought maybe it was a good movement by Enzo that get him free, but enzo was free pretty much forever and even when the pass was late, Enzo was still free. It was madness. 

It is crazy to say because we were 2-0 after 1st half but if we were more patient, it could have been more. West ham was basically begging us to attack them through the middle.

Edited September 25, 20241 yr by Bob stark

51 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Agree moyes must be lmao watching that game. 

Watching the game live, everything felt very easy, maybe it was some clever movement or some nice tactic. I am completely wrong, it was more of amateur level pressing by west ham. 

I saw some clip, it thought maybe it was a good movement by Enzo that get him free, but enzo was free pretty much forever and even when the pass was late, Enzo was still free. It was madness. 

It is crazy to say because we were 2-0 after 1st half but if we were more patient, it could have been more. West ham was basically begging us to attack them through the middle.

No bob - we won because Jackson is a world class striker, and he destroyed the wet spam game plan single handedly.

Which do you think is more likely? 
Option 1: West ham were really bad and didn't start to defend until after we were already 2 nil ahead.

Option 2: Jackson has just been pretending to be useless over the past 12 months. He is really world class and single handedly destroyed west ham with his skill and accurate finishing.

 

One of those is true.... I wonder which is more likely?

 

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

 

No bob - we won because Jackson is a world class striker, and he destroyed the wet spam game plan single handedly.

Which do you think is more likely? 
Option 1: West ham were really bad and didn't start to defend until after we were already 2 nil ahead.

Option 2: Jackson has just been pretending to be useless over the past 12 months. He is really world class and single handedly destroyed west ham with his skill and accurate finishing.

 

One of those is true.... I wonder which is more likely?

 

I think both west ham is awful n Jackson played well can be true 

30 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I think both west ham is awful n Jackson played well can be true 

Half correct….

Another simple analysis,this time on arse goal

It all start here. It is not Lavia fault, it is an underhit pass by Cucu which make it hard for Lavia. 

But it is fine, there is no danger here, Lavia then decided to to jump and double 

That is also fine but when you double you need to force the ball backward, Lavia didn't do that

The ball get to odegaard, good recovery by cucu

The ball was passed to Partey. You want palmer to cover ode because now it is 2 v 3 on the right 

Palmer didn't defend properly, Noni didn't sprit back, bad offside, gusto cannot defend far post (all of of these are same old same old) and we all know the rest. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 20241 yr by Bob stark

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Another simple analysis,this time on arse goal

It all start here. It is not Lavia fault, it is an underhit pass by Cucu which make it hard for Lavia. 

But it is fine, there is no danger here, Lavia then decided to to jump and double 

That is also fine but when you double you need to force the ball backward, Lavia didn't do that

The ball get to odegaard, good recovery by cucu

The ball was passed to Partey. You want palmer to cover ode because now it is 2 v 3 on the right 

Palmer didn't defend properly, Noni didn't sprit back, bad offside, gusto cannot defend far post (all of of these are same old same old) and we all know the rest. 

 

 

 

 

We can dress it up however you want - but the fact remains that we had control of the ball, and Latvia lost it because he made a bad decision. Yes the pass to him might not have been perfect - but that’s expected at times….we still had control, and therefore it is on him for losing the ball.  If in doubt, hoof it out.

15 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

We can dress it up however you want - but the fact remains that we had control of the ball, and Latvia lost it because he made a bad decision. Yes the pass to him might not have been perfect - but that’s expected at times….we still had control, and therefore it is on him for losing the ball.  If in doubt, hoof it out.

 

The ball hasn't reached Lavia yet ode is already on the back of him. You can't expect lavia to hoof this, the one who can hoof this is Cucu 

It was a poor pass from Cucurella, he should have looked up and seen Odegaard close to Lavia but he was also under pressure. Lavia took a touch extra IMO and should have assessed the danger to clear it back or out immediately.

Lavia touches it with his left and miscontrolls, allowing Odegaard (who let's face it, is half Lavia's size!) to nip in and move the ball forward.

Although this is splitting hairs really, Lavia lost the ball but Arsenal didn't have the number advantage until much later. 

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by SydneyChelsea