Remove the sweeper and you’ll have more options wide

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Binary? 😂😂😂

The one who actually think binary is you. Football is not about playing slow or fast. There is no scroll or button that manager press or drag that say fast and slow.

If you want to pass forward, you want to create imbalance. You want to create space and passing lane so you can pass forward.

How do you do that? You want to move the opp by using dribbling, movement, sideway pass. The more you do this the more you can move the ball forward faster.

I am just going to use this screenshot. You can scream at your CB to pass the ball forward, they will think that you are stupid. All the passing lane is blocked.

Come on bob…. you do not create space or goal scoring chances (for us!) by passing slowly sideways between our CBs. It doesn’t happen. Opposition sit deep and are very happy for our defenders to have all the possession - because it doesn’t hurt them.

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Binary? 😂😂😂

The one who actually think binary is you. Football is not about playing slow or fast. There is no scroll or button that manager press or drag that say fast and slow.

If you want to pass forward, you want to create imbalance. You want to create space and passing lane so you can pass forward.

How do you do that? You want to move the opp by using dribbling, movement, sideway pass. The more you do this the more you can move the ball forward faster.

I am just going to use this screenshot. You can scream at your CB to pass the ball forward, they will think that you are stupid. All the passing lane is blocked.

I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

13 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

yep - spot on.

This is why a player like Lavia is so important (especially with Cole Palmer out), because he has the ability to move the ball forward and find team mates even when space is tight. Too many of our players (Gusto being a prime example), take the easy option and even when in a good position, will just pass the ball back or sideways. Maybe under instruction from Maresca but equally because they just don't have the ability to drop their shoulder and beat an opponent with a bit of skill. But against Liverpool, we were a lot more positive and even more so when Lavia and Estaveo were on the pitch.

Edited October 9, 2025Oct 9 by Nibs

22 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

Didn’t see us play with a sweeper against Liverpool.

Both fullbacks played traditionally. Cucurella the one who made inverted runs.

11 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

The big difference is that Liverpool sought to actively press us, and which resulted in a (good) reaction from the team. This is why I don't buy Maresca's nonsense about control, because what we do with possession is apparently entirely dictated by our opponent.

I agree with @Bob stark about dribbling, side ways passing etc to make passing lanes. The problem is, as @nonotnowjim points out, we do all those things so painfully slowly that it cripples any chance of it being effective and I would add, actually makes us less defensively sound because the opposition are not thinking in the back of the mind about our attacking threat. The single biggest problem is we move the ball slowest where there is least risk (defence/keeper), unless we react to the opposition's press.

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

The big difference is that Liverpool sought to actively press us, and which resulted in a (good) reaction from the team. This is why I don't buy Maresca's nonsense about control, because what we do with possession is apparently entirely dictated by our opponent.

I agree with @Bob stark about dribbling, side ways passing etc to make passing lanes. The problem is, as @nonotnowjim points out, we do all those things so painfully slowly that it cripples any chance of it being effective and I would add, actually makes us less defensively sound because the opposition are not thinking in the back of the mind about our attacking threat. The single biggest problem is we move the ball slowest where there is least risk (defence/keeper), unless we react to the opposition's press.

If you keep your structure, you will always play slower. If you want to play faster, you either need to add movement or by far the "easiest" way is to play better player on the ball.

I guarantee we will look better offensively playing

Delap

Neto - JP - Palmer - Estevao

Even if we play the same 3 diamond 3 structure.

Edited October 10, 2025Oct 10 by Bob stark

16 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

Give me the minute

15 hours ago, Nibs said:

This is why a player like Lavia is so important (especially with Cole Palmer out), because he has the ability to move the ball forward and find team mates even when space is tight. Too many of our players (Gusto being a prime example), take the easy option and even when in a good position, will just pass the ball back or sideways. Maybe under instruction from Maresca but equally because they just don't have the ability to drop their shoulder and beat an opponent with a bit of skill. But against Liverpool, we were a lot more positive and even more so when Lavia and Estaveo were on the pitch.

This. Football is this simple. Player, player and player.

I can't remember which game last season. Lavia created passing angle on his own through his dribbling and passing. Maresca can scream at Cucu, Gusto, Enzo to do this all game long. They can't do it.

Edited October 10, 2025Oct 10 by Bob stark

@Bob stark what level have you played at or managed at to speak with such confidence?

Turns out the one who think that if you don't build up using 32 with inverted fb you don't understand tactic is not only Chelsea fans.

Edited October 21, 2025Oct 21 by Bob stark

What?

18 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Turns out the one who think that if you don't build up using 32 with inverted fb you don't understand tactic is not only Chelsea fans.

I was told Gravenberch was the best midfielder in the world

32 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I was told Gravenberch was the best midfielder in the world

I don't know about that. But it turns out the one who think that there is only one way to do build up is not only Chelsea fans.

A very basic analysis on how we play vs Arse.

Our setup is basic 4231/442 morph into 343 that we have seen almost every jdp manager run. The biggest different is now we have Acheampong playing as attacking fb and estevao drop playing as 10 with the two midfielder playing as midifelder.

I am not sure there is anything to talk about offensively. Pivot close to each other, two 10 roaming to find space to receive the ball. 😴😴😴

Probably the biggest different to Maresca is that Rosenior allow his more defensive fb cucu in this instance to get up more and leave only 2 cb behind.

Defensively, man to man. 442 press.

That is Fofana next to Guiu "marking" Odegaard who dropped all the way to cb spot. Saka dropped to drag Cucu and Zubimendi ran behind enzo (very similar to Arse third goal, somebody need to scream at Enzo)

Enzo simply doesn't have the pace to chase Zubimendi. 💀💀💀 (luckily that was Zubimendi and Gyokeres)

Your analysis doesn't go nearly far or deep enough bob.... i hear similar from Mrs NNNJ.

I digress.... if you look at how the players were positioned - you would have a better understanding of what the managers were trying to achieve

Notably, the paying fans at the side of the pitch are the ones who will get the result of that ^ tactic right in the face.

Once again, a simple analysis this time vs Brentford.

There is not much to talk about. James invert, Enzo push forward similar to Maresca ball.

Tactically the most interesting point is that both Jp and Palmer tend to drop at the same time and it created a lot of overload in the middle and it free up space to wide area.

Two almost identical situation with Garnacho is in acre of space. Of course we didn't get anything in this situation because 1v1 is not Garnacho strength. You want my estevao here or Sterling or even Madueke. This is also probably gittens best strength but 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

We barely created anything but I thought we pressed quite well, the only times I thought Brentford opened us is when we had to rotate and cover for each other.

Another point that I want to talk about is more flexibility that I talked about in my previous post.

Enzo dropped with Cucurella (who play as defensive fb ) bomb forward.

The problem here is that Jp lost the ball and enzo need to do less complaining and do more smashing. I don't know wth is that next to him

He didn't

Brentford had their best chance in the 1st half.

12 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Tactically the most interesting point is that both Jp and Palmer tend to drop at the same time and it created a lot of overload in the middle and it free up space to wide area.

I thought it was nauseating tbh. Pedro was nowhere near the attacking area, and of course one of the times he got near the box he had a good chance to score.

There is not much point creating space on the wings, since the players there are not going to create much meaningfully.

3 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I thought it was nauseating tbh. Pedro was nowhere near the attacking area, and of course one of the times he got near the box he had a good chance to score.

There is not much point creating space on the wings, since the players there are not going to create much meaningfully.

Yes the most ideal situation is if you can keep your st high but of course it is harder to progress that way because now you have only 4 player instead of 5 in the middle.

6 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Yes the most ideal situation is if you can keep your st high but of course it is harder to progress that way because now you have only 4 player instead of 5 in the middle.

I don't think it is. I think we are in an era of diminishing returns for the drop-deep forward. The congestion caused by their presence in the midfield third more than negates the gap left when they play high, and this is even worse against teams who play relatively high lines and further exacerbated by Pedro who likes receiving the ball well beyond the centre circle!

When the forward drops so deep you have two unoccupied centre-backs who have the entire game comfortably in front of them. You don't have anyone threatening to run in behind so there is no threat to disrupt the defence's shape. There is also no one threatening the centre of the box, unless you have a midfielder coming in from deep for a cross (Enzo lol) which is usually a size/ability mismatch against tall defenders.

Finally our game vs napoli is up in Chelsea website and this is an interesting (insane) one.

It was basically 343 v 343

Enzo - Jp - Estevao

Neto - Santos - Caicedo - Gusto

Cucu - Fofana - James

Defensively we ran man to man system. The most important things here are the two missing players , Cucu n Fofana. You don't want a single CB vs st in the middle, so Cucu need to double on Holjund.

That is fine, the problem is

Yes that man on the far sideline is Cucu man so cucu need to sprint from the central circle to that guy (of course he will be late) The pressing from the front 3 is criminaly bad.

Easy acces to Holjund vs Fofana. This is not just on Cucu side.

There are gazillion of this. Move side to side, find holjund in the channel.

Yes that is 3v3 and you don't need to be a genius to see where McTominay need to pass.

Napoli literally can get the ball in good position every single time they build. We are not talking about through brilliant play or brilliant pass. Nothing, just move the ball side to side, you can find free player everywhere, just drag Cucu/James, easy pass to holjund vs Fofana.

Let me be frank, this is one of the worst defensive gameplan that I have ever seen. It is almost unthinkable that a team can get into good position everytime, but this was what Rosenior gave to Napoli.

Just compare what we get vs Brentford. 1v1 on the wing great, but Brentford has 5 players in the middle vs our 3 attackers. This is usually what your get, not what Napoli got.

Edited January 30Jan 30 by Bob stark

This time a simple analysis on villa game. Villa unlike many team in pl doesn't play man to man high press or low block, they play almost traditional 442 with high line.

This is why unlike some team where everything feel like a grind, everything feel "easy" vs villa.

You can see that is as 442 as they get.

No pressure whatsoever on Fofana. A nice and simple pass to Gusto ( I don't know whose job it is to mark Gusto (Roger or Maatsen).

We are attacking 5v4 (Garnacho is in the far post).

Once again no pressure whatsoever

We just move the ball around, once again you can see the 442

I don't know whether that is Fofana or James, but no pressure, high line. A nice pass to gusto

I posted before vs Brentford how we need to drop both Palmer and JP to build to create space for our winger. Vs villa nobody need to drop at all, Cb straight to winger and we are not talking about aerial duel, both pass are straight to Gusto feet.

Just for a comparison, this is vs Burnley.

They don't press and they just drop in low block.

Or you can see them pressing us.