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Good Luck Trevor ! Proper Chels, thank you for your efforts.

The same players can stay on the pitch and the game plan completely change. We went from keeping the ball and taking the game to Argentina to 10 sat behind the ball and hoofing it.

Yup. Move on.

Great move for him.

I don't want to argue the point because a) its all a bit academic now and b) i like a lot of the stuff you post and i generally agree with most of it, but you have lost me here a bit tbf The only forward player i see here having been removed was Gordon (which i did disagree with by the way as he was our only effective forward). The rest stayed to the end. What i did see was a double substitution by them on 72 and us reacting on 82. James had to come out, he was being overrun and his hamstrings were going. But we couldn't just leave Gonzalez free and clear. Key for me is the Rice substitution and in fairness to TT he couldn't have predicted the guy to get the sh*ts at the most critical point. Where he should be hammered is taking a carthorse in Henderson as the back up who then broke his bloody arm, so we were so limited in the crucial DM position to protect the back line, break up play and spring counter attacks. I think there were a lot of mistakes and shortcomings. I am not saying your wrong but i just doesn't think its black and white

Up until our goal we matched them all over the pitch. If the players weren't good enough, we wouldn't have been 1-0 up. Tuchel picked these players, Tuchel decided to hook every attacker and sit everyone in our box. We have winners throughout this team with the likes of Kane, Bellingham, James, Stones, Rice etc. and Tuchel killed us with his cowardice, not for the first ime in his career. He's done this multiple times going ultra defensive and losing big games in the dying minutes. Unacceptable and the blame lies solely with the German. Get him gone.

Did the club really post Enzo's celebration in their social medial? They get dumber and dumber and softer each passing day... first the Arsenal and the red card mockery debacle and now this...

I thought we did a pretty decent job keeping Messi nullified for the first hour. But once Argentina upped the attack in response to our goal we had no clue. And for some reason despite having an extra defender we kept leaving him unmarked on his out wide at that point. I think it was Lautaro Martinez who said that first hour England were making it difficult for them with the continual press and he felt England players just got exhausted. But if that was the case bring on subs so you can continue that approach through 90 mins. I would love to know what Tuchel had planned for extra time if England had got there. Presumably we were playing for penalties? So rubbish.

Agreed on Kane, but we could all see that players like Kane and Rice were gassed. Yet he made only one sub until the 82nd minute and that was in the 72nd minute to bring out one of our better attacking outlets in Gordon and replace with Konsa. Made no sense as it allowed Argentina to continue subbing defensive players for attackers and continue upping the pressure on us. We could have brought on Watkins or Toney for Kane and we had Mainoo/Eze as midfield options. We also had Rashford as a direct option to swap for Gordon if he needed a sub. Saka could have been used on the right. It wasn't just not bringing off Kane that was a problem. It was entire game management after scoring.

My personal favorite was Gary Neville complaining why Tuchel didn’t have anyone man marking Messi. As if no manager in the last 20 years hasn’t tried that. Messi also scored a hattrick against Neville’s Valencia. Why did he have anyone man marking him?

It's interesting how every World Cup winning manager is a home grown. A foreign manager has never won a World Cup before. There's something in that I suspect.

That was my take but the fashionable stance seems to be that it was 100% Tuchel's fault LOL Up to the Gordon goal we had only one attempt on goal in 55 minutes (the Stones header wide) - we were ineffective in attack all game basically. Our 5 "chances" were in minute 33, 55, 66, 66 and 79. Having watched the game again this morning, they were clearly better than us and we were probably lucky that they opted to kick us in the first half rather than play football as I think the margin would have been a lot wider otherwise. They are FIFA's #1 ranked international team for a reason ...

I am surprised to see so many ex players and ex managers blaming Tuchel for this result. They of all people should know it's not easy to change players mentality once they have already decided to sit back and defend for whatever reason. Players were all gassed, clear as day to see, so after we scored the players retreated and sat back. This wasn't an instruction from Tuchel evident by the fact that he kept the same system. If he wanted us to defend straight after he would have changed it straight away. I blame him for keeping Kane on even when he was clearly gone which resulted in us having no out ball but everything else was in response to what the players had already been doing.

And last night just reminded me why I feel it is totally wrong for a foreigner to manage an international side. Any internatoinal side should only be managed by a coach of that nationality - it's just wrong otherwise. At least when Southgate f**ked up, we had to take it on the chin and accept it. But last night just doesn't sit right and any conspiracy theorists will be having a field day. TT takes his £8m a year or whatever it is and then when the FA question him on why he did what he did last night with subs and tactic etc, he can just shrug and say "yeah, my bad, I got it wrong". Just imagine if that had happened last night but instead of Argentina the opponents had been Germany and the same outcome. I for one would be thinking Hmmm, hang on a minute......!!"

Maybe that’s why we went all in on Palestra.

Neither do actual Argentines.

Well, you know what you are getting with Stones[32]. I mean he has tonnes of experience and our team/squad needs that. He is nowhere near a Thiago Silva type of player - but who is? But he could step into our squad for a couple of years and help our CBs lurn the game. We have a whole bunch of amazing young Cbs - adding another 50 million quid French bloke who might be a little mediocre after all (we are not sure about him are we?). Feeling 'risk' adverse and Lacroix? meh, not certain about him.

Watching Argentina's come back last night a thought struck me. All the Argie players wanted it big time. Never gave an inch. Mentally tough. Worked their socks off. Got stuck in. Put it about a bit. sh*t housed at every opportunity. Garnacho is the total opposite of all that. On the pitch he plays a like a cross between Alan Carr without his glasses and a bored school girl. I don't believe he is Argentinian at all.

I did wonder about that yesterday when they mentioned he was out of contract. But he's not someone you'd want to stick into the starting 11 going forward to be a permanent partner for Colwill. He's more of an experienced head who would come in here and there. Still, I'd sign him if the wages were ok.

Not sure I agree re Anselmino . From what is being rumoured, yes I know, Badiashille is very likely to go and a deal has been agreed with Disasi to go to WHU but at this time his agents are trying to get him a deal with a PL club. Tosin I agree is 50% . Add to the mix Sarr who did ok when he played & of course Fofana who I personally would be happy to see gone. Let’s assume that we do go with 3CB we have I guess on Colwill, Josh, Hato & maybe Reece but I think we need two a Edit. Forgot Challobah who I think is almost certainly off

So there is no thoughts that actually the players just weren't very good, possibly through fatigue and they basically got outplayed and overrun and therefore couldn't get out. I agree with the timings that you have identified. As an example they brought on Nico Gonzalez on 64 minutes and i don't think we could really cope with him along with everything else that was coming at the team. Personally, i think key to the result was the fact the Rice clearly was still not fully up to speed and we had no back up to pack that defensive midfield area, thus making us go deeper and deeper. I do agree that TT tried to rely on a ploy that worked against the Mexicans and would never work here, but i just wonder whether his hand was being forced by the direction of play and the bluntness of our midfield and attack.

Dont know how anyone can claim he made the right decisions with the squad, thats partially the reason weve struggled in the last 2 games. Quansah instead of TAA, Hall or Shaw Madueke instead of Foden Henderson instead of Gibbs White or Wharton (the worst one of all) Toney instead of anyone else Last night as we were losing control he had nothing to do to change it, he sat and watched it all happen with zero input into stopping it other than to get our team to drop deeper and deeper, and become more compact. Having someone like Gibbs White to run with the ball, Foden to take control and either make space or draw a foul, Hall on for an exhausted Spence, someone other than Toney to give us a target. He f**ked the squad up massively, highlighted perfectly by the balls up at right back, took 2 injury prone ones who then got injured (surprisingly to him), then replaced them with a CB who never got a single minute of game time.

Or Nobby Stiles.

Maybe we should take a pass on spending a fortune on this bloke and sign John Stones on a FREE?