Jolly good show old chap

[Lofty]

From the BBC:

Fans sought over abusive chanting

Images have been released of 16 Tottenham fans police want to trace over indecent and homophobic chanting directed at Portsmouth's Sol Campbell.

The investigation follows abuse aimed at the former Arsenal and England defender during a game with Spurs at Fratton Park on 28 September.

Officers are asking the public to help them trace the men, who were captured on film during the match.

The FA said it would ban for life any fans it could prove were involved.

'Robust action'

Supt Neil Sherrington from Hampshire police said: "As part of our investigation into indecent chanting at Fratton Park, we have identified 16 people we would like to speak to.

"Our inquiry is aimed at identifying and putting before the court those individuals who engaged in unacceptable behaviour at this public event.

Police say they want to send out a clear message

"Their abuse caused distress to some supporters and was targeted at an individual.

"We want to send a clear message that abuse of this kind will not be tolerated and that we are taking robust action.

"I'd urge anyone who recognises these people to contact us as soon as possible."

Campbell, who left Tottenham on a free transfer to north London rivals Arsenal in 2001, joining Portsmouth in 2006, was subjected to prolonged abuse during the game.

Complaints from Portsmouth fans were made to Hampshire police, who initially said they could not take action because of the number of Tottenham fans involved.

I'm the last one to defend any so supporter of that dump in N17. However, that the strong arm of the law is being brought down heavily on a bunch of supporters for chanting abuse at a former player? And because it caused "distress to some supporters"?

Well do you know what? I do not give a flying f**k about this "distress". If you can't take the piss out of a former player, then I am seriously glad I don't go to football any more.

So why the title of the thread? Because it's ok for a player to deliberately ram an elbow into an opponent's face, fracturing his skull, but a few nasty words at a former player commonly perceived as a two faced liar and a traitor? Question his sexuality? Call a player a fairy? Oooo no we can't do that now, can we.

Remember all the crap Graham Le Saux used to take? Did he complain to the Old Bill? No he didn't. He laughed at it. Unlike Sol Campbel who went whining to the Old Bill. "Nasty fans called me nasty names." Boo f**king hoo.

Sol Campbell you're a w**ker. You're a big f**king fairy.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Lofty

[geezer]

On the other hand if the same level of abuse was levelled at a Liverpool player you'd defend the player wouldn't you :P

[Maksimov]

I don't think Le Saux was laughing at it. I think he was pissed off because people really thought he was gay.

I read it from another site that the chant aimed at Sol went something like this:

"Sol, Sol, wherever you may be,

Not long now til lunacy,

And we couldn't give a f**k,

When you're hanging from a tree,

Judas c**t with HIV"

If people seriously took it as a fact that Le Saux was gay based on chants and such, then I don't see why some numbskulls wouldn't start thinking Sol's got HIV. So what, you may ask. Well, I'll ask you this: would you want the stigma of being labeled as having HIV? Sure, why not...I mean, people aren't going to treat you any differently if they think you've got HIV, are they? Oh wait...

You can sing chants at football matches and give stick to the opposing players all you like but at least try to have some class.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Maksimov

[Lofty]

Class? Don't be daft. This is T*tt*nh*m fans we're talking about!

My point isn't to do with the rightness or wrongness, or the accuracy or any possible stigma - come on, how seriously do you think people take football chants? abuse, some of it very, very nasty, has been going on for decades and it's never been anything to go crying to the Old Bill about - but anyway, it's the fact that the police are kicking up such a stink and pressing charges over it. If this is a nickable offence, then surely you'd have to nick Scousers en masse for the abuse they hurl at JT - according to them he's a big headed racist mongoloid, hence the charming nickname "mongo".

Seriously, my point is that making this kind of chanting subject a criminal offence - not just nasty, tasteless, classless, false and all the rest of it, but criminal and possibly even leading to custodial sentences - this is just one more sanitised nail in the coffin of what was once the traditional working man's game.

What I don't want is a game aimed at a corporate audience or a family audience, or even an international audience. But this, generally is what we've got. And I can't f**king stand it. Maybe in your eyes that makes me some kind of dinosaur, out of step with modern society. Well so be it. Society isn't going to change, and in this respect, neither am I.

[Maksimov]

Judging by what I've read, heard and seen, some people seem to practically take the chants as bleeding gospel. The more something gets repeated, the more likely it is that some people will start believing it.

Ok, they were Spurs fans so having class may be too much to ask, but a little creativity wouldn't be too much to ask, would it? I've heard some brilliant chants that really take the piss out of some players, but they don't need to include hanging from trees or suggest having HIV to really do the job AND be funny. Besides, aren't these the same bunch of fans who were furious about Gooners calling Sol a traitor and a Judas? Hypocrisy never suited anyone. Just ask Ger 'National Traitor' rard.

As for making it a criminal offence, I don't think it's football's fault. If you go and insult anyone like that in any public place or forum nowadays, you can (and more and more often will)be sued for it.

[Virosh]

What I don't want is a game aimed at a corporate audience or a family audience, or even an international audience. But this, generally is what we've got. And I can't f**king stand it. Maybe in your eyes that makes me some kind of dinosaur, out of step with modern society. Well so be it. Society isn't going to change, and in this respect, neither am I.

Do not despair, Lofty. Tides might be a-changing in England, but here in Bulgaria it is just the way you remember it and probably will be for as long as I live. Abuse at players and other teams is non-stop during games and I myself have never cursed and swore so much in two hours as I have when in our local derby.

I don't think it is a bad thing at all - a football stadium is not a theater and people go to games to watch AND to vent. No one hear takes chants seriously - otherwise we would all be killing other supporters and raping their moms (yes, I know, our chants are that good :P ) I personally enjoy singing our songs when I am at a game and those who know me will never say that I am a violent man or even prone to swearing.

So if any of you feels for the good ol' days, you're all welcome to one of our big games. I promise to teach you enough Bulgarian to scrape through :P

Edited December 10, 2008 by Virosh

[Lofty]

Judging by what I've read, heard and seen, some people seem to practically take the chants as bleeding gospel. The more something gets repeated, the more likely it is that some people will start believing it.

Ok, they were Spurs fans so having class may be too much to ask, but a little creativity wouldn't be too much to ask, would it? I've heard some brilliant chants that really take the piss out of some players, but they don't need to include hanging from trees or suggest having HIV to really do the job AND be funny. Besides, aren't these the same bunch of fans who were furious about Gooners calling Sol a traitor and a Judas? Hypocrisy never suited anyone. Just ask Ger 'National Traitor' rard.

As for making it a criminal offence, I don't think it's football's fault. If you go and insult anyone like that in any public place or forum nowadays, you can (and more and more often will)be sued for it.

Not that it matters, but does Sol Cambell look as if he's got HIV? In other words, you'd have to be some kind of cretin (or a T*tt*nh*m fan) to believe it. And who cares what they think?

Lack of class isn't a criminal offence, neither is inanity. Nor is hypocrisy or failure to be funny. None of that is relevant to my argument, which is that the police/authorities are more intent on prosecuting to the full extent of the law, a few halfwitted chants, than they are for a potentially life threatening assault.

But then I'm also of the opinion that the millions of pounds of damages routinely awarded to "celebrities" for slander and/or libel is a farce. Sticks and stones and all that, you know? And when it comes to football, this kind of stuff simply goes with the territory, always has done. No-one's asking you to like it, that really isn't the point, but neither should this kind of thing be subject to criminal prosecution.

[Maksimov]

Not that it matters, but does Sol Cambell look as if he's got HIV? In other words, you'd have to be some kind of cretin (or a T*tt*nh*m fan) to believe it. And who cares what they think?

Some people just don't know when to stop and keep shouting the same thing to the players when they see them on the street, newsagent, restaurant etc. It really must be a charming feeling when you're with your mum, wife, kids or whatever. "Dad, why do they want to see you hanging from a tree? Dad, what's HIV?"

Lack of class isn't a criminal offence, neither is inanity. Nor is hypocrisy or failure to be funny. None of that is relevant to my argument, which is that the police/authorities are more intent on prosecuting to the full extent of the law, a few halfwitted chants, than they are for a potentially life threatening assault.

If they're willing to punish the lesser crimes, they should do so with the bigger crimes as well. Ofcourse if the bigger crimes aren't being reported there's not much the police can do. Then again, if the type of chant that I posted earlier on is being sung at the stadium and it does get reported, then there's not much the police can do but process it according to the letter of the law. The crimes at football stadium are pretty high profile crimes nowadays when it comes to media coverage, just like the celebrity slander/libel cases. I reckon the police feel they have to process those crimes as strictly as possible as they don't want the bad publicity that could come out of it if the start "going easy" on these crimes. Do these lesser crimes take away energy and resources from fighting bigger criminals? Damn right they do.

[mad_mac]

Regardless of what is being said, or to whom it is being said...if supporters are going to football matches now worrying that what they say could result in upsetting a player and landing them in the nick with a lifetime ban from watching their club......well, that'd be the end of football as we know it

[Barn]

I assume those fans were chanting/shouting something along the lines of "big black faggot", not very pleasent but what has Sol got to be ashamed of? He is black surely that's something for him to be proud of? He might well be gay as well, some people think that's something to be proud of????

It's only football for goodness sake, I'm sure Campbell is big enough to ignore it.

[bjd]

Sol Campbell you're a w**ker. You're a big f**king fair

I dont think the issue here is so much to do with the individual , in this case Sol Campbell but more to do with the content of the chants.

Of course, any footballer who crosses that white line is fair game, they know that and the fans know that. There is a limit however.

I know we are no angels oursleves , ive heard our lot sing some horrific things over the years to players, but ive never joined in. Im taking my Godson to see Chelsea for the first time on Boxing Day - i wouldnt want to hear stuff like that when he is there. Just because its football, doesnt mean we should turn a blind eye to general decency. Call him crap, call him past it, call him a traitor, but dont call him that.

Should we be accepting and turning a blind eye to homophobic chants in a public arena ? Personally , i dont think so.

Im glad something is being done. Looks like im in the minority here.

[dkw]

i think theres a line with regards to chants and songs at football, and i think that one crossed it. theres been some bad ones over the years, such as the ones sang at beckham about his wife and kids. i dont really understand the argument about players being on big money so they should be able to rise above the abuse. being well paid doesnt automatically mean you have no feelings.

[Maksimov]

...well, that'd be the end of football as we know it

Eleven against eleven trying to kick the ball into the opponent's goal? :huh:

[ethicalstrategy]

I dont think the issue here is so much to do with the individual , in this case Sol Campbell but more to do with the content of the chants.

Of course, any footballer who crosses that white line is fair game, they know that and the fans know that. There is a limit however.

I know we are no angels oursleves , ive heard our lot sing some horrific things over the years to players, but ive never joined in. Im taking my Godson to see Chelsea for the first time on Boxing Day - i wouldnt want to hear stuff like that when he is there. Just because its football, doesnt mean we should turn a blind eye to general decency. Call him crap, call him past it, call him a traitor, but dont call him that.

Should we be accepting and turning a blind eye to homophobic chants in a public arena ? Personally , i dont think so.

Im glad something is being done. Looks like im in the minority here.

I'd agree with that. There is always a line beyond which it goes to far. Where that line is is different for different people. This stuff oversteps the mark for me. If I never heard another homophobic, racist chant at a football match I can't honestly say that it would be the end of football for me.

[Lofty]

Ok. I haven't heard the chant, nobody here, as far as I know has. Even if it was what Maks says, I still think that to pursue the case at this distance in time is somehow way over the top. If they'd been thrown out or whatever at the time, then fine. Case over with, done and dusted. But for Sol Cambell to run whining to the police - nothing to do with how much money he's paid - and for them to subsequently launch an investigation leading to criminal procedings into into what a bunch of muppets were chanting at a football match - now that to my mind is way over the top.

And I'll go back to my initial point. Which is about the incidents where no action is taken - apparently it's a more serious offence to call someone a few nasty names than to fracture deliberately smash an elbow into someone's face, resulting in a potentially life threatening, and certainly career threatening/debilitating injury.

[BLUENUT]

Regardless of what is being said, or to whom it is being said...if supporters are going to football matches now worrying that what they say could result in upsetting a player and landing them in the nick with a lifetime ban from watching their club......well, that'd be the end of football as we know it

They have pictures of the offenders in the paper yesterday.

When your picture can be displayed in a national paper for something you sung at a football match, effecting your future employment prospects then football has really gone to the dogs.

Arrseted for singing - f*cking hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what about the fella who threw the coin at Drogba, everyone seems to have forgotten about him don't they?

F*cking unbelievable!

Atmosphere........ RIP!

[Barn]

There are two issues here as far as I'm concered, one is protecting people from the sort of rasist torment that we have seen previously, and in no way should we go back to where we were previously. The other is what is right and acceptible.

I'd like to lay my feelings on the line, what I will say first though is that my opinions are just my opinions and I would not try to force them onto any others, I'm giving these opinions just to highlight how difficult an argument this is to reach a landing on and would hope that people reading this take them in just that way.

Rascism; I don't care what colour skin someone has or what their religious beliefs are, as long as they don't; 1) use that as an excuse to behave in an inappropriate way. or 2) Try to force their views on other people.

Sexual Preference; I can't help but think that to be homosexual is totally against everything that is right/normal in life.

What I have said maybe controversial (desperate to cover myself here) but they are my thoughts, in relation to the stick Campbell recieved:

You can't take abuse away from fans - that's all we have but there are levels that are/should be acceptible. Sol Campbell is black and I strongly believe that to call him so is not/should not be offensive to him. Monkey chant's and the likes that have been heard in years gone by are totally unacceptible - they are derrogatory and not just about a persons physical appearance.

As for calling him gay? If he is, i think he should come out in response and say "Yes I am, that's who I am" could people abuse him about it after that? I don't think so.

People take the mik out of each other and I think that's healthy and not really a problem, what causes the problem is when an uninvolved party starts complaining about the abuse. I don't have an answer here but I hope that people realise that some people will give abuse not meaning any real harm by it - I don't know how to stop people being offended by that sort of thing, but I don't think the tottenham fans should get done from what I've read.

[ethicalstrategy]

I'm making an assumption here that what Mak posted is indeed what was sung. If it is then I would find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that it did not cross the line. It covers him being mentally ill, gay and suffering from HIV and throws in some racisim as well as wishing him dead all in one witty verse. Personally I think the people singing that are f**kwits and deserve all they get. Which isn't to say that the Burnley fan who threw the coin at Drogba or the Sheffield Utd player who broke someone's face with his elbow should get off scott free.

[Barn]

Okay, note to self - read posts before commenting on them.

That little "ditty" is bang out of order.

[loz]

I am with bjd on this argument. Like with most things there is a line where it is no longer banter and it becomes vitriol. For man many years footballs terraces were blighted with racist bigotry and for many years it was generally accepted as being fair game. Then society changed and generally speaking people's moral view of racism changed and it was this cultural shift that meant racism declined to the point where it became an occasional issue in football rather than the norm on a Saturday afternoon.

Society's attitude to homosexuality is now changing as well and has been for some time. I very much doubt it will ever be as generally accepted in the UK as black people now are as there will always be religious barriers and people who just can't get away from their natural feelings that it is wrong. I, personally, don't have any problem with homosexuality nor do I have a problem with people who don't feel comfortable about it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion on anything however the problem arises depending on how you choose to manifest that opinion.

Whether or not Campbell is gay is entirely irrelevant - he is entitled to go about his life however he pleases without having people wishing a disease that has killed millions on him. Just as every punter in the street is.

It took tough action to eradicate racism from the terraces and, or me, the terraces became a better place for it. Action like that being taken against these Spurs fans is just the modern equivalent of that and I welcome it. Getting racists out of football didn't kill the atmosphere and nor will this. The lack of atmosphere in football is brought about by many other reasons.

[BLUENUT]

As long as we can sing 'Gallas Gallas you're a c*nt and you'll always be a c*unt'

But do we draw the line at singing 'Murderers' to Liverpool fans? Would you like to see your photo in the paper after singing that? - Seriously?

The police should have done something on the day not issued photos of people singing to the press, completely the wrong way to go about it. The whole Spurs end was singing it for 90 mins, why single out justy 16 people?

As soon as the police start dictating what can and can't be sung at football matches, we may aswell just cherr ra ra ra and clap Chelsea etc.

I don't condone the days of mars bars being throw or banana's etc, that's just bang out of order, but these were the days when the National Front used to sell their paper round the corner from the ground, then take their place on the shed. I don't want to go back to theose days, we have moved on, a long way infact. But although he may not have HIV, the Spurs fans do see him as a Judas c*unt, and would like to see him swinig from a tree. Weither he takes it up the arse is another question.

Judas c*nt - fact, according to the Spurs fans.

would spurs fans like to see him swinging from a tree - yes they would by the sound of it

was it commented in the press he was going off his head - yes it was.

does he have HIV - not sure on that one

Does he drop cock anchor in poo bay? - again the jury's out, but he's hardly known as a ladies man is he?

*last bits were added with tongue in cheek BTW*

[mad_mac]

I certainly don't advocate what is being said, what I ama gainst is the police getting involved this late in the day to persecute these people. As I said, Imagine you get a bit hammered, go to a match, shout something obscene and then your getting nicked and having your life ruined because of it? It's way over the top.

[ethicalstrategy]

So if you are pissed you cease to be accountable for your actions?

[dkw]

i dont understand how people think footballers are fair game on a pitch because they get paid well. does that mean were allowed to walk up to anyone on a good wage and verbally abuse them? would you be allowed to call a lawyer a queer and tell him you hope he dies in the middle of the street? if a policeman saw you do that then you would be arrested, and rightly so. so why does it change when a player goes onto a football pitch?

[BLUENUT]

i dont understand how people think footballers are fair game on a pitch because they get paid well. does that mean were allowed to walk up to anyone on a good wage and verbally abuse them? would you be allowed to call a lawyer a queer and tell him you hope he dies in the middle of the street? if a policeman saw you do that then you would be arrested, and rightly so. so why does it change when a player goes onto a football pitch?

When you get a parking ticket, have you ever patted the warden on the back and thanked him for his repremand? Or are you more likely to swear at them?

There are elements that are sometimes much worse in the real working world, although he has songs sung about him thats as far as it's gone. How many fans tried to run on the pitch and hit him? (Like the Spurs fan with Lampard at WHL?)How many traffic wardens have been punched or kicked in their line of business in London alone this morning.

The fella was a youth product of the club and wanted to leave to play abroard, according to the script, and wound up less than 1/2 a mile up the road at their nearest rivals. It was a transfer that stunk and upset alot of the spurs fans, Campbell must realise this.

Do you think it's fair to have your picture in the paper for singing Gallas is a c*nt, 6 weeks after you'd done it? or shouting freak when Crouch touches the ball? and what about the other 2,984 who got away with it. Does Frank cry because he's been booed by his own national supporters up and down the country for the past 4 years, or for being called fat? No, he's a pro, keeps his mouth shut and gets on with it. This whole affair is ridiculous to me, from a justice point of view anyway.