Chelsea and Liverpool in 2011/12

[ElNino2]

Greetings to all my old friends on the Shed End,

I guess I need a new user name!

As the new season has now kicked off I thought I would pop in and see what the mood is like in the Chelsea camp and find out what you all think about the coming season, in particular how you guys are progressing and we are progressing.

My thoughts are that the gap between you and us is going to be marginal this season unless you get your act together and make a few signings before the end of this month.

We have made improvements in key areas and although I do think we will take a little time to settle because of the number of new players (and will therefore carry on dropping ‘silly’ points) I also think we will make a much better challenge for a top four position.

The two Manchester teams will battle it out for the top two and the other two positions are there for the taking with you, us, Arsenal, and quite possibly Spurs fighting for them.

Why you are still relying on predominantly the same first team as last season is beyond me as it was quite clear to everyone it was no longer a title winning side. You are clearly still chasing players and 2 or 3 signings in the next fortnight might change things but is seems odd that you have left it this late.

We have made a lot of signings, possibly too many and clearly they won’t all be successes however at least we got our business done early so we can start the season as a squad with some pre-season behind us. The way you are going about your business seems strange – maybe it is the inexperience of the manager or the overbearing control by your owner – who knows but to outsiders looking in it seems like you are doing your best not to get better.

Anyway enjoy the season and I dare say we will meet again…

[Zeta]

The mood shifts between eternal optimism because the season has just begun, to doom and gloom because the Manchester clubs are unbeatable, then back to optimism again when we get linked with a winger, then back to doom and gloom again after a sh*t performance.

So nothing new really.

Edited August 19, 2011 by BlueSkies

[Maverick]

My thoughts are that the gap between you and us is going to be marginal this season unless you get your act together and make a few signings before the end of this month.

Thanks for the greetings and I must admit your one optimistic individual to believe we are both competing for the 3/4 spots. A look at last two years table should tell the gap is still the same if not got bigger. If that's not good enough look at the trophies that we have competed in the last 2 years as compared to yours.

We have made improvements in key areas and although I do think we will take a little time to settle because of the number of new players (and will therefore carry on dropping ‘silly’ points) I also think we will make a much better challenge for a top four position.

The two Manchester teams will battle it out for the top two and the other two positions are there for the taking with you, us, Arsenal, and quite possibly Spurs fighting for them.

The pundits and the rest of world were harping on the same point when we were fifth at one point. We went on a great run and almost pushed United for it till the game at OT, if you believe we aren't in the title race you need a reality check. I'd buy Ramires in August anyday over Henderson in June.

Why you are still relying on predominantly the same first team as last season is beyond me as it was quite clear to everyone it was no longer a title winning side. You are clearly still chasing players and 2 or 3 signings in the next fortnight might change things but is seems odd that you have left it this late.

We have made a lot of signings, possibly too many and clearly they won’t all be successes however at least we got our business done early so we can start the season as a squad with some pre-season behind us. The way you are going about your business seems strange – maybe it is the inexperience of the manager or the overbearing control by your owner – who knows but to outsiders looking in it seems like you are doing your best not to get better.

Anyway enjoy the season and I dare say we will meet again…

Why would you make drastic changes to a team that just finished runners up in the league? We have certain areas that needs improvement and if our targets come through (which they generally do) I don't see us having problems in challenging for the league. On the other hand if I was in your position I'd be worried about the signing that Spurs seem likely to make from Modric sale proceeds.

Cheers and I look forward to the game against you lot.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Maverick

[Barn]

Making wholesale changes doesn't necessarily make you a better team. You've got a better team than you had last year, but you're still a long way off challenging manu, unless everything works out perfectly for you this season.

As for us, we do need to change a few things still, we need less reliance on Lampard and Drogba, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should have off-loaded them and spent a fortune on average young English talent at extorsionate prices. We'll challenge again this year, the biggest difference is that City will also challenge. That'll leave the usual suspects fighting for the Champions League qualification spot. I think you should be more concerned with finding out if you're better than the two north london clubs this year because that should be your aim for the season.

[Myles_91]

Greetings to all my old friends on the Shed End,

I guess I need a new user name!

As the new season has now kicked off I thought I would pop in and see what the mood is like in the Chelsea camp and find out what you all think about the coming season, in particular how you guys are progressing and we are progressing.

My thoughts are that the gap between you and us is going to be marginal this season unless you get your act together and make a few signings before the end of this month.

We have made improvements in key areas and although I do think we will take a little time to settle because of the number of new players (and will therefore carry on dropping ‘silly’ points) I also think we will make a much better challenge for a top four position.

The two Manchester teams will battle it out for the top two and the other two positions are there for the taking with you, us, Arsenal, and quite possibly Spurs fighting for them.

Why you are still relying on predominantly the same first team as last season is beyond me as it was quite clear to everyone it was no longer a title winning side. You are clearly still chasing players and 2 or 3 signings in the next fortnight might change things but is seems odd that you have left it this late.

We have made a lot of signings, possibly too many and clearly they won’t all be successes however at least we got our business done early so we can start the season as a squad with some pre-season behind us. The way you are going about your business seems strange – maybe it is the inexperience of the manager or the overbearing control by your owner – who knows but to outsiders looking in it seems like you are doing your best not to get better.

Anyway enjoy the season and I dare say we will meet again…

[midlandblue]

hows Joey?

[Zola]

Edited August 19, 2011 by Zola

[Nibs]

To be fair (I know I shouldn't be but it is Friday), I can see why Liverpool fans do have a slight air of optimism. They have made a few decent signings (along with a few not so decent ones) and have a number of good youth players coming through.

There is still a fair gap, but I reckon they will be fighting for that 4th spot along with the Gooners and Sp*rs and failing that they are pretty much ensured Europa cup football next season.

[AVB-TheOwl]

There's a fine line between optimism and stupidity. For me Liverpool have signed second rate players apart from the exception of Suarez, none of their summer signings would get into us, Man United or City. I'd be very surprised if you managed to get into the top 4 as I reckon that'll between Spuds and Arse. This is going to sound ironic, but if you want to win the PL you need to start beating teams such as Sunderland at home instead of holding on for the draw, that's the way I see it anyway.

Good luck for the season

[Eggy McMuffin]

To be fair (I know I shouldn't be but it is Friday), I can see why Liverpool fans do have a slight air of optimism. They have made a few decent signings (along with a few not so decent ones) and have a number of good youth players coming through.

There is still a fair gap, but I reckon they will be fighting for that 4th spot along with the Gooners and Sp*rs and failing that they are pretty much ensured Europa cup football next season.

I'd go with that.

I think it's also important for Liverpool fans to recognise that they may have a stronger squad, but they have a weaker starting XI IMHO. In your starting side, Suarez and Downing are a step up, but Carroll is a massive step down from Torres. There's more depth to their side now, though which will help them, but the depth isn't too strong. Henderson isn't very good, although Adam will be decent.

Your side looks stronger defensively with Enrique adding a lot to protect the sicknote that is Aurelio, it's just that centrally you're still relying on Agger to be fit, Carragher to be in form or that Greek dude to be able to defend.

I think you'll be better against the worse teams, but are still lacking enough to be a threat to the challengers (Us and the gruesome twosome from Manchester).

[bluish]

I was just saying the other day that I don't think Liverpool are in better shape than Spurs if they get Adebayor. The difference between Chelsea and Liverpool is if your squad is in form you'll make the Champion's League and if our squad is in form we'll win the double.

[Davey Baby]

My thoughts are that the gap between you and us is going to be marginal this season unless you get your act together and make a few signings before the end of this month.

My thoughts are that you're deluded. You're underestimating us, as has been done so many times in the past. We were told we were past it two years ago and we promptly won the double. While we could definitely strengthen, there is no comparison between us and Liverpool. Though they may be getting older, Cashley, Terry, Lampard, Drogba etc are a very special group of players with incredible will and mental strength. The fact that they've been with us so long is to our benefit not our detriment, as so many wrongly assume.

We have made improvements in key areas and although I do think we will take a little time to settle because of the number of new players (and will therefore carry on dropping ‘silly’ points) I also think we will make a much better challenge for a top four position.

You have bought well. Downing, Adam, Enrique, Henderson, all good buys. You must finish top four, given the investment and given you spent £60m on two strikers six months ago. Dalglish has no excuses. There are already good players there and he has all the tools at his disposal. Why would you need time to settle? We didn't need time to settle when Mourinho arrived. We lost one game all season. Why do you doubt Dalglish?

The two Manchester teams will battle it out for the top two and the other two positions are there for the taking with you, us, Arsenal, and quite possibly Spurs fighting for them.

If you think we'll be batling for fourth with Spurs you're in dreamland. As for City finishing above us .. Watch this space.

The way you are going about your business seems strange – maybe it is the inexperience of the manager or the overbearing control by your owner – who knows but to outsiders looking in it seems like you are doing your best not to get better.

I dare say we know a lot more about being successful than you do. While it may seem strange, the best advice I could give you is ..

Watch and learn !

[dkw]

Its great to see that famous scouse sense of humour is still alive and kicking isnt it, this one should be on the telly...

[Myles_91]

Its great to see that famous scouse sense of humour is still alive and kicking isnt it, this one should be on the telly...

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

It's like watching X Factor auditions (I don't watch it by the way but have seen them), you sort of laugh when you see how bad and delusional the people really are, but then after you sort of question whether laughing at them is morally right.

I would consider myself a pessimist on here with regards to Chelsea but even I think we are head and shoulders above them and that will show.

This is a team that not so long ago was beaten home and away by Blackpool and .... Spurs. Seriously what top team gets beaten at home by Spurs? Even Bolton fans see Spurs at home as a guaranteed 3 points.

For all they have spent, Suarez is the only top signing they have bought. Andy Carroll for £35m was a joke considering Newcastle wanted to offload him for £1m 12 months prior to his sale. All these Scouse hypocrites will have soon disappeared now it is their club supposedly trying to "buy" it's way to the top. I am willing to bet Liverpool finish 5th place this season

[superdan]

Despite the pessimism from Arsenal fans and the press regretfully I'm also not ruling them out. I still think that despite some fragility they will still be a class above Spurs and Liverpool who will fight it out for 5th and with less pressure on them may challenge us and the Mancs

[Englishman]

Why all the cynicism? This is Liverpool's year, you know. Just like it was last year and the year before....

I'm amazed at the level of delusion/optimism from the Scousers. Liverpool will probably improve on last year, but that's only relative because they were already weaker than the top 4 and Suarez aside they've bought players who wouldn't get into the any of the top 4's starting XI. Think of it this way: City have bought Aguero, Chelsea are chasing Modric, United are chasing Sneijder. Liverpool have bought Stewart Downing. Liverpool might nick 4th if Arsenal continue to implode but I'd be amazed if they did any better than that.

[ElNino2]

Will try and respond to as much as I can.

Maverick – you are referring to what has been rather than what might be going forward. Yes you have won more than us and yes there has been a big point gap however my point is that, this summer, we have taken steps to improve our squad whereas, so far, you have done very little. That is why I think we are closing the gap although I do acknowledge there are still 11 days to go before window closes.

I also agree that Spurs will be a threat, which I acknowledged in my initial post.

Barn – I don’t expect to be challenging either Manchester clubs – that is out of our reach. Third would be the most we could hope for but fourth would a great result. Personally I don’t think Chelsea will challenge for top spot unless you sort out your creativity problems. Your defence is solid and that will always support you but if you are going to carry on with the slow build up approach without any genuine width then too many points will be dropped to be a genuine title challenger.

Midlandblue – as you probably know Joey is most likely moving on. How is Nando? I remember when he used to be a goalscorer. For £50m you could have got Aguero and most of the fee for Mata (if you do sign him) – I think we know which option would have been better for you.

Nibs – I agree, as I said 4^th spot would be position I would be delighted to finish in. There might still be a fair gap between us and you but I personally don’t think it will be as big as most on here think it will be. I don’t think you are safe for a top 3 finish – Arsenal’s decline will make that easier for you though.

AVB – we do need to beat the likes of Sunderland (we will come back to home results agaisnt Sunderland later) just as you need to beat the likes of Stoke. Individually you are right about our players getting into the top sides however my hope is that, like the second half of last season, our whole is better than our individual parts. I don’t think that can be said of Chelsea at the moment. AVB has a job to do to reinstate the unity you had under Mourinho and Hiddink – it seems to disappear all too easily under other managers.

Eggy – Carroll is a step down from Torres when Torres was at his best but Torres’s best (like Lampard and Gerrard’s) is a thing of the past so I was happy to take the £50m and get Carroll with money left over for Suarez. Our defence is a concern and an area I wish we had strengthened more. Very happy with the Enrique signing but still worried about leaking goals. That is something you have well sorted assuming you can keep all of them happy as there are a lot of players who will want a place in that back four. Your only concern from a defensive perspective has to be Cech’s ability to keep getting injured – fortunately not a problem for us with Reina (touch wood).

Bluish – I think the idea of you winning the double is as delusional as Liverpool fans are accused of being. The cup is always possible but I think the title is out of our reach.

Daveybaby – I would agree about Cole, Terry and Drogba but totally disagree about Lampard. As stated earlier it is quite clear he is not the player he once was and he hasn’t been it for too long for people to claim the ‘form temporary, class permanent’ line. This is not a blip in form but a clear indication of a player who is deteriorating. I don’t doubt Kenny – yes you did settle quickly under Mourinho but if you recall you didn’t settle so quickly under Ranieri – with the money he spent surely you should have won the title that year. You can’t pick one example of where it went well and ignore one where it didn’t go so well.

Myles91 – what kind of team lose 3-0 at home against Sunderland?

[nonotnowjim]

Will try and respond to as much as I can.

Maverick – you are referring to what has been rather than what might be going forward. Yes you have won more than us and yes there has been a big point gap however my point is that, this summer, we have taken steps to improve our squad whereas, so far, you have done very little. That is why I think we are closing the gap although I do acknowledge there are still 11 days to go before window closes.

I also agree that Spurs will be a threat, which I acknowledged in my initial post.

Barn – I don’t expect to be challenging either Manchester clubs – that is out of our reach. Third would be the most we could hope for but fourth would a great result. Personally I don’t think Chelsea will challenge for top spot unless you sort out your creativity problems. Your defence is solid and that will always support you but if you are going to carry on with the slow build up approach without any genuine width then too many points will be dropped to be a genuine title challenger.

Midlandblue – as you probably know Joey is most likely moving on. How is Nando? I remember when he used to be a goalscorer. For £50m you could have got Aguero and most of the fee for Mata (if you do sign him) – I think we know which option would have been better for you.

Nibs – I agree, as I said 4^th spot would be position I would be delighted to finish in. There might still be a fair gap between us and you but I personally don’t think it will be as big as most on here think it will be. I don’t think you are safe for a top 3 finish – Arsenal’s decline will make that easier for you though.

AVB – we do need to beat the likes of Sunderland (we will come back to home results agaisnt Sunderland later) just as you need to beat the likes of Stoke. Individually you are right about our players getting into the top sides however my hope is that, like the second half of last season, our whole is better than our individual parts. I don’t think that can be said of Chelsea at the moment. AVB has a job to do to reinstate the unity you had under Mourinho and Hiddink – it seems to disappear all too easily under other managers.

Eggy – Carroll is a step down from Torres when Torres was at his best but Torres’s best (like Lampard and Gerrard’s) is a thing of the past so I was happy to take the £50m and get Carroll with money left over for Suarez. Our defence is a concern and an area I wish we had strengthened more. Very happy with the Enrique signing but still worried about leaking goals. That is something you have well sorted assuming you can keep all of them happy as there are a lot of players who will want a place in that back four. Your only concern from a defensive perspective has to be Cech’s ability to keep getting injured – fortunately not a problem for us with Reina (touch wood).

Bluish – I think the idea of you winning the double is as delusional as Liverpool fans are accused of being. The cup is always possible but I think the title is out of our reach.

Daveybaby – I would agree about Cole, Terry and Drogba but totally disagree about Lampard. As stated earlier it is quite clear he is not the player he once was and he hasn’t been it for too long for people to claim the ‘form temporary, class permanent’ line. This is not a blip in form but a clear indication of a player who is deteriorating. I don’t doubt Kenny – yes you did settle quickly under Mourinho but if you recall you didn’t settle so quickly under Ranieri – with the money he spent surely you should have won the title that year. You can’t pick one example of where it went well and ignore one where it didn’t go so well.

Myles91 – what kind of team lose 3-0 at home against Sunderland?

ElNino2 - Welcome to the forum, always appreciate a good discussion and comparison. Personally i don't think you are as deluded as other poster on here have said and i also appreciate that you have made some valid points.

When Dalglish first took over again i was delighted as i honestly thought the game had changed too much since his previous jobs as manager, and i thought he would be out of his depth. On the evidence so far it appears i was wrong and i tip my hat to the job he has done in difficult circumstances.

I think he has bought some solid players, but also feel he has spent far too much money for the players he has acquired. For players bought i would give him 7 out of 10 - but for value for money i would give 4 out of 10. Enrique was a cracking bit of business and Suarez looks like a good buy. Adam is also a positive move as he is a solid player who will create chances, even though he lacks experience at the top level. All fo these can justify the price tags imo.

However for me Downing was overpriced and the 55 million spent on Carroll and Henderson is a ludicrous waste of money. Neither have achieved enough or shown sufficient potential to justify such price tags. When you consider the money that has recently been spent on players such as the likes of Fabregas, Aguero, Sanchez, Bent and then the touted fees for players such as Ash Young, Sneider, Nasri, Mata, Hazard etc, if i were a liverpool fan i would be extremely disappointed to have spent such huge money on Carroll and Henderson rather than some better value foreign players.

The club may try to justify the fees by arguing that English players come at a premium, but i would argue that the club are foolish to pay this premium for sub standard players just because they are English.

We can also be accused of overspending (maybe Torres and Lukaku as examples?) - however Lukaku is one of the hottest prospects in world football who has been coveted by many clubs around the world, and Torres (who may or may not be past his best depending on what side of the fence you are on) has proven to be a world class player at the highest level.

Overall i think there is still a big gap between the class of players between our respective teams, and whilst Liverpool have strengthened since Hodgson left, i still think the best they can hope for is to be the "best of the rest" (i.e 5th place). I dont agree that you have closed the gap on us, and believe this will be evidenced by our final standings in the league.

On a like for like basis (tried to match up as best i could) I would prefer/rate our players ahead of their liverpool equivalents the majority of the time:

My choices in bold:

Cech - Reina

Ivanovic - Glen Johnson

Terry - Carrager

Luiz/ Alex - Agger/Skirtel

Ash - Enrique

Mikel - Lucas

Ramires - Meireles

Lamps - Gerrard

Malouda - Downing

Torres - Suarez

Drogba - Carroll

Hilario - Doni

Bossingwa - Aureilo

Anelka - Kuyt

Josh - Henderson

Danny - Ngog

Essien - Adam

Yossi - Joey

Van Aanholt - Flanagan

Kalou - Maxi

[Nibs]

Nibs – I agree, as I said 4^th spot would be position I would be delighted to finish in. There might still be a fair gap between us and you but I personally don’t think it will be as big as most on here think it will be. I don’t think you are safe for a top 3 finish – Arsenal’s decline will make that easier for you though.

Looking at today's match you could well be right. Arsenal were sh*t and even made you lot look good!!!

Congrats on the 3 points anyway.

[dkw]

I thought both teams were very average Nibs, Liverpool rarely threatened a massively under strength Arsenal side until they went down to 10 men (though Liverpool were playing with 10 from the start with that big lump up front wandering around). Suarez made a massive impact of the bench and they will need to keep him fit to have a chance of getting near the top 4. Their signings were very poor today, Adams and Henderson were outplayed by pingpong until he got sent off.

[Nibs]

I agee -both teams looked mid-table to be honest. That is until Liverpool threw the two subs on and Arsenal wen't down to 1o men - you knew what the outcome was going to be then.

Arsenal already look to have a long, tough season ahead of them. Shame!!

[Maverick]

Maverick – you are referring to what has been rather than what might be going forward. Yes you have won more than us and yes there has been a big point gap however my point is that, this summer, we have taken steps to improve our squad whereas, so far, you have done very little. That is why I think we are closing the gap although I do acknowledge there are still 11 days to go before window closes.

I also agree that Spurs will be a threat, which I acknowledged in my initial post.

I was merely referring to what has been the case for the last few years and its a testimony to how the two clubs have moved in the last decade or so. For sure you have made some good signings and most of them happen to be British talent but to think of it none of them would be close to being tagged as a marquee signing. Does that say something?

On the other hand we are likely to sign Mata and possibly Modric in the next few days. Between the players you've signed and we are likely to sign I know which bunch I'd be picking. How these players fare is something that we'll discover over the course of the season.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Maverick

[ElNino2]

OK first off I will caveat this post by acknowledging that we are only two games in and you can read into that about as much as you can read into the average footballer kissing the badge.

So based on what we have seen so far I don’t think my opinion on you, Man City and also us is as far from the mark as many of you seem to think. You have laboured badly in your first two games and all the same weaknesses of last season are still there to be seen (not all that surprising given that it is the same team and formation).

We laboured in our opening game but, irrespective of the fact Arsenal lost a man, got a great result yesterday and it is a result any side would be delighted with. Suarez can make the difference in games like that in a way that I don’t think any of your current crop of strikers can make. My personal feeling is that on his return from suspension Sturridge should be the player you turn to to offer you something more imaginative up front.

City, although still in need of a better defence, look frightening up front when they break at pace. Aguero and Silva already seem to have clicked, Dzeko has finally found his scoring boots and they can turn to the likes of Johnson and Balotelli (idiot yes but still very talented) on the bench. Furthermore it looks less and less likely that Tevez is going to find a new club and if they get to December and are right up challenging United at the top he may well be persuaded to stay in Manchester after all.

For your sake I hope AVB grows some balls and drops Lampard but for our sake I hope he doesn’t. It will play into the hands of your opponents if he makes 50 appearances this season as the team is suffering by sticking with him. Hats off to Hilario though for his performance yesterday – given that so many of his own fans don’t seem to have any faith in him he stepped up and put in a quality performance.

Edited August 21, 2011 by ElNino2

[Myles_91]

OK first off I will caveat this post by acknowledging that we are only two games in and you can read into that about as much as you can read into the average footballer kissing the badge.

So based on what we have seen so far I don’t think my opinion on you, Man City and also us is as far from the mark as many of you seem to think. You have laboured badly in your first two games and all the same weaknesses of last season are still there to be seen (not all that surprising given that it is the same team and formation).

We laboured in our opening game but, irrespective of the fact Arsenal lost a man, got a great result yesterday and it is a result any side would be delighted with. Suarez can make the difference in games like that in a way that I don’t think any of your current crop of strikers can make. My personal feeling is that on his return from suspension Sturridge should be the player you turn to to offer you something more imaginative up front.

City, although still in need of a better defence, look frightening up front when they break at pace. Aguero and Silva already seem to have clicked, Dzeko has finally found his scoring boots and they can turn to the likes of Johnson and Balotelli (idiot yes but still very talented) on the bench. Furthermore it looks less and less likely that Tevez is going to find a new club and if they get to December and are right up challenging United at the top he may well be persuaded to stay in Manchester after all.

For your sake I hope AVB grows some balls and drops Lampard but for our sake I hope he doesn’t. It will play into the hands of your opponents if he makes 50 appearances this season as the team is suffering by sticking with him. Hats off to Hilario though for his performance yesterday – given that so many of his own fans don’t seem to have any faith in him he stepped up and put in a quality performance.

You've just beaten an Arsenal B team not Real Madrid, and were it not for Frimpong's red card you wouldn't even have won.

Last season West Brom drew at Old Trafford (and were the only team to do so), won emphatically at the Emirates, won at Goodison with ease and drew at WHL (should have won at Anfield as well) so I'll settle for 3 points against them however it comes.

The thing we have over Liverpool is we can play badly and win, Sunderland at home proved you can't do the same, had you played WBA who are a much better footballing team and Stoke you probably wouldn't have won either.

We are miles better than Liverpool and that will show.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Myles_91

[Zeta]

You've just beaten an Arsenal B team not Real Madrid, and were it not for Frimpong's red card you wouldn't even have won.

Last season West Brom drew at Old Trafford (and were the only team to do so), won emphatically at the Emirates, won at Goodison with ease and drew at WHL (should have won at Anfield as well) so I'll settle for 3 points against them however it comes.

The thing we have over Liverpool is we can play badly and win, Sunderland at home proved you can't do the same, had you played WBA who are a much better footballing team and Stoke you probably wouldn't have won either.

We are miles better than Liverpool and that will show.

But knowing our luck we'll probably still lose to them when we play them.