So when you're winning everything is great? Problems only show up if/when results go south?

There is also a big difference between critical analysis and complaining/moaning. Learning to recognise this difference could be beneficial in the long run.

 

100%

 

It's exactly what I pointed out in the Newcastle game, his first half performance was absolutely dreadful and despite the goal and assist his overall performance certainly wasn't that great and needed work. However many got carried with the goal and assist that it was just an automatically good performance, you have to look past things like that. Because one day things aren't going to go our way and that's the real test, will you want Oscar there to break down the sides that are parking the bus and we can't get through them? From what I've seen of him not likely, I would prefer Cesc there.

 

Nothing wrong with a bit of discussion, if a player plays well but I find something concerning I will still point it out. Take Diego Costa I think he loses the ball far to many times and it doesn't help on counter attacks, fantastic player in front of goal just what we need. But it's still something to point out. The game against Swansea we were brilliant first half mainly because we didn't lose the ball, okay Swansea didn't help themselves but our passing and play could have troubled any team then, we were fantastic, the no midweek fixture really shown.

 

That's why losing the ball doesn't help anything and I find that Oscar and Costa also but I'll excuse him as he doesn't get on the ball as much as Oscar that Oscar should improve that aspect of his game. It's not pass completion per say, he isn't just losing the ball a lot but he is failing to sometimes make even the most simple pass in there area and it kills momentum and a chance, that part he does need to cut out.

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by Slawth

No problem giving the guy an honest appraisal but put it in context. The guy is still young so he's going to be inconsistent, yet he's one of our most important players.

 

He's not our main playmaker, yet he's got more assists than Hazard, than Di Maria, than some bloke called Mata and the same number as Sanchez.

 

He's not our main goalscorer yet he's got just one less goal than Toure, the same as Silva and one more than that Mata bloke.

 

All this whilst being a little workhorse in the midfield. There aren't many players who combine everything together like that and he's only 23 (for comparison, neither Lampard nor Gerrard had the type of season he's had in terms of goals this year until they were about 24/25). 

 

So yes, be critical if you must of some loose passes but try and apply a bit of context.

I agree with what you said Blue Daze, I do have a lot of faith in Oscar, but with all the statistics you have put in front of me, he is still not in the same class as a lot of those players you've mentioned.

 

That I have no huge concerns over, he is a work horse, for a Brazilian he has adapted to the league marvelously since his 2nd season, he refuses to get pushed off the ball and gives it 100% every game. But to claim we are getting worked up over a FEW loose passes is not really the case.

 

We are pointing out a problem. The Swansea game everyone played well first half, good combination of football, we didn't exactly keep it up 2nd half but no biggie. Oscar played well but he has a tendency to ruin the play even kill it with his sloppiness at times. I also saw a few complaints earlier in the season particularly last season of him slowing the play down and taking about 10 seconds to decide where to pass it. Almost John Obi Mikel style.

 

We played so well against Swansea because we didn't lose the ball, we played so bad against Newcastle first half because we kept losing the ball, Oscar mostly. With Fabregas in the middle going forward it is always a risky game for us defensively which is why we have to be better on the  ball. Remember we might not be taking this lightly with Oscar but you also need to remember we are going to win the league, this team has to play to a top standard to win the league. I feel Oscar doesn't play like this often enough, that's my main concern.

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by Slawth

I agree with what you said Blue Daze, I do have a lot of faith in Oscar, but with all the statistics you have put in front of me, he is still not in the same class as a lot of those players you've mentioned.

 

That I have no huge concerns over, he is a work horse, for a Brazilian he has adapted to the league marvelously since his 2nd season, he refuses to get pushed off the ball and gives it 100% every game. But to claim we are getting worked up over a FEW loose passes is not really the case.

 

We are pointing out a problem. The Swansea game everyone played well first half, good combination of football, we didn't exactly keep it up 2nd half but no biggie. Oscar played well but he has a tendency to ruin the play even kill it with his sloppiness at times. I also saw a few complaints earlier in the season particularly last season of him slowing the play down and taking about 10 seconds to decide where to pass it. Almost John Obi Mikel style.

 

We played so well against Swansea because we didn't lose the ball, we played so bad against Newcastle first half because we kept losing the ball, Oscar mostly. With Fabregas in the middle going forward it is always a risky game for us defensively which is why we have to be better on the  ball. Remember we might not be taking this lightly with Oscar but you also need to remember we are going to win the league, this team has to play to a top standard to win the league. I feel Oscar doesn't play like this often enough, that's my main concern.

 

I've already said he's young so inconsistency will be an issue.

 

I don't agree that he's not as good as those players were at that age either. He's asked to do a lot of work in the middle of the pitch and the one thing I've not seen many mentioning was his pressing game on Saturday. It was absolutely superb from the first minute and along with Diego Costa's pressing, it set the foundation for the win. The first goal comes from them putting pressure on the back four and Williams being forced into a long pass he didn't want to make that eventually leads to their mistake (if I remember correctly).

 

I was very critical of him last season when he took the back-half of the season off, but he's started 2015 with a bang getting some big goals and assists for us so far. Some of his passes are sloppy but I think he compliments Matic and Fabregas wonderfully which is why I'm not going to lay into him too hard. He needs to get better and I think he will.

I've already said he's young so inconsistency will be an issue.

 

I don't agree that he's not as good as those players were at that age either. He's asked to do a lot of work in the middle of the pitch and the one thing I've not seen many mentioning was his pressing game on Saturday. It was absolutely superb from the first minute and along with Diego Costa's pressing, it set the foundation for the win. The first goal comes from them putting pressure on the back four and Williams being forced into a long pass he didn't want to make that eventually leads to their mistake (if I remember correctly).

 

I was very critical of him last season when he took the back-half of the season off, but he's started 2015 with a bang getting some big goals and assists for us so far. Some of his passes are sloppy but I think he compliments Matic and Fabregas wonderfully which is why I'm not going to lay into him too hard. He needs to get better and I think he will.

 

When I said he's not as good as them players I wasn't referring to when they were his age. Although to be fair Juan Mata was pretty awesome at 23.

 

I think he is having a good season just so we all know what point I'm making here. I like when he can join in the play and even excel it, but what we seen of him from Swansea is something we don't see too often, and don't forget this is the league title we are wanting here, I don't think he do that often enough. I think it's actually more of an issue rather than oh well not every player is consistent.

 

Our football has improved this season for sure, however with Fabregas and Matic in the midfield we shouldn't lose the ball, not because of the quality of players but because we can't really afford to. The Newcastle game for instance, we can get countered pretty badly. If Oscar can keep it up and play like he did against Swansea more often I will have no issues with it, however I  get the feeling he wont. Also with teams parking the bus he can be very ineffective in attack, probably a good reason why we did buy Fabregas.

 

But believe it or not I've gave him a lot more credit than criticism this season. We could debate all day about it I suppose, I want to see if he's capable of this sort of stuff and put it into his game more often than not until the end of the season. It would definitely improve our stance on winning the league title, teams can't defend against us when we are playing like that.

I'm not saying Oscar should be or is immune from criticism but I'm just surprised that negative aspects of his play are being micro analysed following a compression victory in which he played a significant role and in the eyes of quite a few people put in a MotM performance.  

 

The Willian thread for example has been quite since the game despite him missing 2 maybe 3 chances where he should be scoring. 

 

What about the Hazard thread, 5 goal performance and the boy didn't contribute to any of the goals... Maybe that's a good thing and shows we aren't reliant on him but still unusual for him not to be more involved. 

 

I'm not saying I want us to be hyper critical of all our players but I just found it strange that after a great performance from Oscar and the team we're talking about a couple of wayward passes. 

100%

It's exactly what I pointed out in the Newcastle game, his first half performance was absolutely dreadful and despite the goal and assist his overall performance certainly wasn't that great and needed work. However many got carried with the goal and assist that it was just an automatically good performance, you have to look past things like that. Because one day things aren't going to go our way and that's the real test, will you want Oscar there to break down the sides that are parking the bus and we can't get through them? From what I've seen of him not likely, I would prefer Cesc there.

Nothing wrong with a bit of discussion, if a player plays well but I find something concerning I will still point it out. Take Diego Costa I think he loses the ball far to many times and it doesn't help on counter attacks, fantastic player in front of goal just what we need. But it's still something to point out. The game against Swansea we were brilliant first half mainly because we didn't lose the ball, okay Swansea didn't help themselves but our passing and play could have troubled any team then, we were fantastic, the no midweek fixture really shown.

That's why losing the ball doesn't help anything and I find that Oscar and Costa also but I'll excuse him as he doesn't get on the ball as much as Oscar that Oscar should improve that aspect of his game. It's not pass completion per say, he isn't just losing the ball a lot but he is failing to sometimes make even the most simple pass in there area and it kills momentum and a chance, that part he does need to cut out.

Absolutely. His general play during the Newcastle game was woeful at times but he scored so we can paper over those cracks. There's no need to be apologetic for your opinion as it is a sensible argument. It seems many people on the forum have two standard responses - praise or flame, without due consideration.

As I've said, Oscar is probably my favourite player at the moment, but if I feel he should improve in a certain aspect I will say as much. It doesn't need any other context because eventually all you end up doing is making excuses for poor play.

Watching the game against Swansea, he fluffed two counter opportunities in the first 10 mins. And then I thought to myself - How many memorable through-balls (key passes) has he played this season? And I couldn't think of one. Fabregas played 2 in just that game. Then I saw the Sigurdsson v Oscar stats and Sigurdsson has twice as many key passes as him this season. A pretty damning stat considering the respective teams. And this is not undue criticism. It's just a fact that he must improve in this area, considering his ability. And I expect him to.

And not just improve for his sake, for the teams sake. If we can continue that sort of play in almost every game we will trouble every team we play against.

 

Our football has improved significantly from last season, we've done this plenty of times this season. However we have been a bit dry for a while until this game, probably because of not having a midweek fixture.

 

We have a very strong balanced side although we can be a bit blunt in attack at times and lose that consistency, Cesc on the other hand has improved the team play massively.

I'm not saying Oscar should be or is immune from criticism but I'm just surprised that negative aspects of his play are being micro analysed following a compression victory in which he played a significant role and in the eyes of quite a few people put in a MotM performance.

This is unfortunately what I do, regardless of whether I post it here or not. And it's what coaches do as well. But you shouldn't take it as being unhappy with the result/performances. It was a great victory, everyone had a good game, but that doesn't mean you should refrain from discussing the possibility of improvements just because everything is rosy.

This is unfortunately what I do, regardless of whether I post it here or not. And it's what coaches do as well. But you shouldn't take it as being unhappy with the result/performances. It was a great victory, everyone had a good game, but that doesn't mean you should refrain from discussing the possibility of improvements just because everything is rosy.

 

True... But why is Oscar the only individual player being discussed in a critical light following the game? 

True... But why is Oscar the only individual player being discussed in a critical light following the game? 

 

Because it's not just of this game, it's from all season, the Newcastle game for me was a particular highlight, despite still getting the goal and assist I could still see the same flaws in his game that could have potentially cost us that game rather than earn the 3 points.

Because it's not just of this game, it's from all season, the Newcastle game for me was a particular highlight, despite still getting the goal and assist I could still see the same flaws in his game that could have potentially cost us that game rather than earn the 3 points.

 

So in a period where he has scored 3 and assisted 2 we're criticising him because theoretically we could have lost, even though we didn't because Oscar helped us win? 

Again you're picking those two games. Despite him having a good season which he has had he still needs to improve on his game, otherwise we could be left dry, he has a tendency to spoil the play even slow it down.

 

Perhaps you think this is all coming out now but I can assure you it isn't, look in the earlier match day threads.

 

Also again no one is saying that he wasn't the reason we didn't win both games, we are just pointing out a consistency of  his play he has had all season, giving the ball away, and we have discussed the factors of him doing that, spoiling play, losing momentum. That's as far in depth as we go with that one, I don't want to sound like the guy is ruining the side. But hopefully you can see it from our side, we have discussed the cracks in Oscars play and we are hoping he improves it. What he did against Swansea is something we don't see often enough in that first half, he usually can't get in with the play from Hazard and Fabregas, even Wilian joins in the play more than Oscar does.

Again you're picking those two games. Despite him having a good season which he has had he still needs to improve on his game, otherwise we could be left dry, he has a tendency to spoil the play even slow it down.

 

Perhaps you think this is all coming out now but I can assure you it isn't, look in the earlier match day threads.

 

Also again no one is saying that he wasn't the reason we didn't win both games, we are just pointing out a consistency of  his play he has had all season, giving the ball away, and we have discussed the factors of him doing that, spoiling play, losing momentum. That's as far in depth as we go with that one, I don't want to sound like the guy is ruining the side. But hopefully you can see it from our side, we have discussed the cracks in Oscars play and we are hoping he improves it. What he did against Swansea is something we don't see often enough in that first half, he usually can't get in with the play from Hazard and Fabregas, even Wilian joins in the play more than Oscar does.

 

Heavily disagree that Willian is more involved than Oscar but that's a whole other debate me thinks. 

 

Anyway!

 

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury may I present my case in defense of our number 8, Oscar. 

 

It's widely agreed that Sanchez is a contender for player of the season in his debut season for Arsenal. Now I know there are lies, damned lies and statistics but bear with me here. 

 

Here's a link to a direct comparison to Sanchez's and Oscar's contributions in the Premier League season

 

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2014/2015/oscar/126/126/3129/0/p|premier_league/2014/2015/alexis_sánchez/126/126/1581/0/p#total_forward_passes/total_passes/pass_completion/assists/goals_scored/tackles_won#total

 

Sanchez has played 344 minutes more than Oscar which is just shy of 4 whole games more. 

 

Oscar has attempted over 100 more passes than Sanchez and more forward passes and importantly has an overall pass success rate of 84% compared to Sanchez's 77% and so despite attempting passes and more forward passes Oscar is safer in possession. 

 

He's now equal with Sanchez for number of assists, 7 and has 6 goals to Sanchez's 12 (how we must remember has played on occasion up front). 

 

And just for a further reference Oscar and Sanchez have both made 31 successful tackles this seasons to regain possession. Just for context, Willian a player who is no slouch defensively has made 21 tackles. 

 

 

To surmise, yes, I am sure there are aspects to Oscar's game that can improve but if he's doing a pretty good job at matching a contender for Player of the Year then surely he's doing more right than wrong? He's a wonderful player and has already improved on last season. He's an essential part of the team and for me, maybe, just maybe, deserves a little more praise from the Chelsea faithful. 

Personally I've never been able to warm to Oscar, but you can't argue with the contribution he's made this season.

This is unfortunately what I do, regardless of whether I post it here or not. And it's what coaches do as well. But you shouldn't take it as being unhappy with the result/performances. It was a great victory, everyone had a good game, but that doesn't mean you should refrain from discussing the possibility of improvements just because everything is rosy.

 

What coaches do is apply criticism with context, something you haven't done.

 

Then I saw the Sigurdsson v Oscar stats and Sigurdsson has twice as many key passes as him this season. A pretty damning stat considering the respective teams. 

 

This is absolutely ridiculous. A fundamental misunderstanding of certain football statistics. Sigurdsson is Swansea's main playmaker, the playmaker tasked with making 'key passes' which is why he has more key passes than Oscar (by 0.9 per match) and more assists.....specifically ONE more assist.

 

Oscar is not the main playmaker for Chelsea. Cesc Fabregas is, hence the 15 assists and 3.2 key passes per game. Then you've got Hazard as the 'secondary playmaker' in this case a winger. You're comparing apples with oranges.

 

Put simply Oscar scores more and assists more than Sigurdsson with less attempts at both and a greater defensive workload. Damning indeed.

What coaches do is apply criticism with context, something you haven't done.

 

 

This is absolutely ridiculous. A fundamental misunderstanding of certain football statistics. Sigurdsson is Swansea's main playmaker, the playmaker tasked with making 'key passes' which is why he has more key passes than Oscar (by 0.9 per match) and more assists.....specifically ONE more assist.

 

Oscar is not the main playmaker for Chelsea. Cesc Fabregas is, hence the 15 assists and 3.2 key passes per game. Then you've got Hazard as the 'secondary playmaker' in this case a winger. You're comparing apples with oranges.

 

Put simply Oscar scores more and assists more than Sigurdsson with less attempts at both and a greater defensive workload. Damning indeed.

 

Then please enlighten me as to this relevant 'context' which you keep harping on about. 

 

A fundamental misunderstanding of football statistics? I am an economist by profession and I can assure you there is no misunderstanding regarding statistical inferences. You are making assumptions as to Oscar's and Sigurdsson's function within the Swansea and Chelsea teams and then using that as the basis for their statistical differences - cognitive bias.

 

I did not make illogical inferences from Oscar v Sigurdsson stat and took it at face value. Sigurdsson having more key passes (leading to chances) is an undeniable fact, but in previous posts I have argued why I believe Oscar is the better player. So before you go on another tangent and criticise the opinions of others, I urge you to employ more careful consideration as it will save us all from having to endure such BS.

Oscar > Siggy

 

A fundamental misunderstanding of football statistics? I am an economist by profession and I can assure you there is no misunderstanding regarding statistical inferences. You are making assumptions as to Oscar's and Sigurdsson's function within the Swansea and Chelsea teams and then using that as the basis for their statistical differences - cognitive bias.

 

 

They aren't really assumptions, they're conclusions based on watching the matches. In this instance not only do the statistics support that conclusion, but it would be easy for even a beginner statistician to make a similar conclusion based on the available evidence.

 

 

 

I did not make illogical inferences from Oscar v Sigurdsson stat and took it at face value. Sigurdsson having more key passes (leading to chances) is an undeniable fact, 

 

I didn't argue that it wasn't a fact but placed that fact in context. 

 

None of the inferences or conclusions I've actually arrived at are incorrect and I'm quite happy to argue the toss over any mistakes or statistical errors you think I've made. 

 

 

 I urge you to employ more careful consideration as it will save us all from having to endure such BS.

 

Calm down. How about we avoid the handbags and simply stick to the facts. OK?

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by Blue Daze

Oscar > Siggy

 

But, but, but key passes

Heavily disagree that Willian is more involved than Oscar but that's a whole other debate me thinks. 

 

Anyway!

 

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury may I present my case in defense of our number 8, Oscar. 

 

It's widely agreed that Sanchez is a contender for player of the season in his debut season for Arsenal. Now I know there are lies, damned lies and statistics but bear with me here. 

 

Here's a link to a direct comparison to Sanchez's and Oscar's contributions in the Premier League season

 

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2014/2015/oscar/126/126/3129/0/p|premier_league/2014/2015/alexis_sánchez/126/126/1581/0/p#total_forward_passes/total_passes/pass_completion/assists/goals_scored/tackles_won#total

 

Sanchez has played 344 minutes more than Oscar which is just shy of 4 whole games more. 

 

Oscar has attempted over 100 more passes than Sanchez and more forward passes and importantly has an overall pass success rate of 84% compared to Sanchez's 77% and so despite attempting passes and more forward passes Oscar is safer in possession. 

 

He's now equal with Sanchez for number of assists, 7 and has 6 goals to Sanchez's 12 (how we must remember has played on occasion up front). 

 

And just for a further reference Oscar and Sanchez have both made 31 successful tackles this seasons to regain possession. Just for context, Willian a player who is no slouch defensively has made 21 tackles. 

 

 

To surmise, yes, I am sure there are aspects to Oscar's game that can improve but if he's doing a pretty good job at matching a contender for Player of the Year then surely he's doing more right than wrong? He's a wonderful player and has already improved on last season. He's an essential part of the team and for me, maybe, just maybe, deserves a little more praise from the Chelsea faithful. 

 Absolutely. I don't think anyone can deny that he's had a good season and I certainly don't question how invaluable he is to the side. He is improving and long may it continue.

 

Here's a comparison between players who play in a similar position. Yes we are all aware of Oscar's good qualities, those aren't being questioned. He is not a typical no.10 but there are matches and situations within matches where he is required to be more creative:

 

 

Now these are of course face-value stats. Any mention of who the better passer is, who the better player is, would be mostly subjective. But my argument is that if you look at the key passes (chances at goal created), combined with the fact that I've seen many occurrences of attacks breaking down with the ball at his feet, then he does need to do better in the regard. The same goes for Willian.

 

*Hypothetical* - If Oscar makes 100 passes in a game, with 85% pass completion, but 10 of the other passes were all during the crux of counter-attacking moves - I am going to be disappointed regardless of the scoreline or his goals/assists because the TEAM PERFORMANCE *could have been better.

 

These are two examples before the 10 min mark against Swansea. Both could have led to good chances. One with our players breaking their midfield line, and the other a good chance for Hazard. Two poor passes and two attacks broken down. He misplaces a simple pass a bit later and Mourinho is fuming because he expects better.

 

 

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by venom2011

 

 

How about we avoid the handbags and simply stick to the facts. OK?

 

 

But just for a laugh, let me breakdown the problems with your argument:

 

"Sigurdsson is Swansea's main playmaker" "the playmaker tasked with making 'key passes'"

 

Your opinion of his designated role within the team.

 

which is why he has more key passes than Oscar (by 0.9 per match) and more assists.....specifically ONE more assist.

 

An inference based on your assumption - Because Sigurdsson is tasked with making key passes, that is why he has more.

 

Oscar is not the main playmaker for Chelsea.

 

Again, your opinion of his role as designated by Mourinho

 

Cesc Fabregas is, hence the 15 assists and 3.2 key passes per game.

 

Cesc is naturally a more creative and technically gifted player, but again you're confusing what the players are able to do with what you think their roles are. 

 

I could go on but it's quite tedious.

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by venom2011

Heavily disagree that Willian is more involved than Oscar but that's a whole other debate me thinks. 

 

Anyway!

 

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury may I present my case in defense of our number 8, Oscar. 

 

It's widely agreed that Sanchez is a contender for player of the season in his debut season for Arsenal. Now I know there are lies, damned lies and statistics but bear with me here. 

 

Here's a link to a direct comparison to Sanchez's and Oscar's contributions in the Premier League season

 

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2014/2015/oscar/126/126/3129/0/p|premier_league/2014/2015/alexis_sánchez/126/126/1581/0/p#total_forward_passes/total_passes/pass_completion/assists/goals_scored/tackles_won#total

 

Sanchez has played 344 minutes more than Oscar which is just shy of 4 whole games more. 

 

Oscar has attempted over 100 more passes than Sanchez and more forward passes and importantly has an overall pass success rate of 84% compared to Sanchez's 77% and so despite attempting passes and more forward passes Oscar is safer in possession. 

 

He's now equal with Sanchez for number of assists, 7 and has 6 goals to Sanchez's 12 (how we must remember has played on occasion up front). 

 

And just for a further reference Oscar and Sanchez have both made 31 successful tackles this seasons to regain possession. Just for context, Willian a player who is no slouch defensively has made 21 tackles. 

 

 

To surmise, yes, I am sure there are aspects to Oscar's game that can improve but if he's doing a pretty good job at matching a contender for Player of the Year then surely he's doing more right than wrong? He's a wonderful player and has already improved on last season. He's an essential part of the team and for me, maybe, just maybe, deserves a little more praise from the Chelsea faithful. 

But look at the number of chances created and key passes, Sanchez have about double than Oscar.

But look at the number of chances created and key passes, Sanchez have about double than Oscar.

 

Quite honestly I have no idea what this "key pass" statistic is, it seems to be a fairly new stat that gets thrown around but it seems to be a rather objective thing. 

 

Also what is the actual point you are making, are you saying Oscar isn't playing well? That Sanchez is playing exceptionally well? Please elaborate as I don't really know what you're getting at. 

These are two examples before the 10 min mark against Swansea. Both could have led to good chances. One with our players breaking their midfield line, and the other a good chance for Hazard. Two poor passes and two attacks broken down. He misplaces a simple pass a bit later and Mourinho is fuming because he expects better.

 

See highlighting chances that may or may not have led to something else in a 5-0 victory is just lost on me, especially when more significantly that same player had scored our opening goal.

 

 

Maybe we just view football differently but with Oscar, especially in his current form I'm seeing a player that's anything but sloppy and I can forgive the odd stray pass if he's overall contribution is winning us football matches. 

 

If you micro-analysed the performances of all the Chelsea players in that Swansea game I'm sure we could write an essay on their failings but end of the day we won 5-0 and it was as close to a perfect performance as you can get. 

 

Regarding Oscar specifically, as I've already said, in my eyes he's having a superb season and I don't see this same level of analysis being directed at any of our other players and I'm bemused as to what Oscar's done (or not done) to warrant such scrutiny especially at a time that he is significantly contributing to our title challenge. 

Edited January 19, 201511 yr by ForeverCarefree