I think that's a very good point and is similar to one I've argued about TV pundits being largely from clubs who were successful in the 80s and 90s (then retire and take up these positions). 

 

The issue is that when it comes to race, these things aren't so clear. You're talking about non-white people taking up positions of power within organisations that are overwhelmingly white (and male, but that's a whole other issue). The question of whether these barriers are quite so easily surmounted is another one and I think we also have an idea of what 'successful managers' look like.

 

Look at Man United, the biggest club in the world. They had the best manager of all time who was a Scottish, white male and when he retired who did they go for? People tend to hire people who look like them or remind them of what they think 'success' is. Maybe it will happen organically or maybe simply interviewing non-white candidates might help. 

 

What I don't get is the objection to even trying, although I think you nailed it in an earlier post.

 

 

I definitely don't object to trying. I just believe the justification behind this proposal is flawed, and that there are likely to be better approaches to encourage the proportion of black managers/coaches to grow based on individual merit.

I have a theory about this. If you go back only 30 years then there were relatively few non-white players in the league, but over time, as attitudes changed and the older generations retired and younger generations came through, we have reached the stage where black players (and sportsmen in general) are probably better represented than in any other profession. I'm not aware of there being any legislation in the 80s onwards to force clubs to give trials/recruit black players, these players have succeeded on their own merit.

 

That first wave of black players will be in their 40s and 50s now, and we are starting to see more black managers in the league. As the current generation of black players get older and retire, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a significant increase in the number of black managers/coaches to reflect that.

Exactly, the percentage of player to manager now is skewed, obviously. But the percentage of black players from 30 years ago isn't. Also, the likes of sol Campbell and john Barnes who believe they should be managers simply because they are black do the other black people trying to get a job no good at all. Campbell actually said he should be a manager, and he hasn't done a single coaching course.

I definitely don't object to trying. I just believe the justification behind this proposal is flawed, and that there are likely to be better approaches to encourage the proportion of black managers/coaches to grow based on individual merit.

 

I don't think they're going to be hired over more deserving candidates simply because they're black and merit will still be the deciding factor in any appointments. There may be better approaches to dealing with an issue that we're all sure exists, but what is it? 

 

I asked ForeverCarefree before I unforgivably hurt his feelings with my vicious joke and I think it's a pertinent question if you believe an issue exists. But I also think you're right that a lot of objections may well be based on white males who like to bang on about how they are the most discriminated against ethnic group.

I asked ForeverCarefree before I unforgivably hurt his feelings with my vicious joke and I think it's a pertinent question if you believe an issue exists. But I also think you're right that a lot of objections may well be based on white males who like to bang on about how they are the most discriminated against ethnic group.

 

Yes, keep saying that despite that clearly not being the case at all in this thread.

Yes, keep saying that despite that clearly not being the case at all in this thread.

 

I wasn't the first person to say it, I'm simply agreeing with someone that it could be a factor.

 

The general sense seems to be 'it's not right' but without an alternative being presented. Some suggest it might not be effective, despite it being effective (apparently) in the States, whilst others seem to completely misconstrue what this initiative actually involves.

 

The best that those against it seem to be able to do is construct 'thin-end of the wedge' straw men that others (not me) knock down.

Edited June 5, 201511 yr by Blue Daze

Exactly, the percentage of player to manager now is skewed, obviously. But the percentage of black players from 30 years ago isn't. Also, the likes of sol Campbell and john Barnes who believe they should be managers simply because they are black do the other black people trying to get a job no good at all. Campbell actually said he should be a manager, and he hasn't done a single coaching course.

 

It's that sense of entitlement that I dislike. Les Ferdinand was whining about only being offered the Bournemouth job. As if it was beneath him, a complete novice as a manager, to go there. Ironically Bournemouth are now in the Premier League while QPR who currently employ Ferdinand have just been relegated to the Championship. Rather than bleating about not being offered the Man Utd job, go and do what so many other managers, even those who were high profile players, have done, start at the bottom, prove you can manage and then better offers will come in. In 2001 Mourinho was managing Uniao de Leiria.

It's that sense of entitlement that I dislike. Les Ferdinand was whining about only being offered the Bournemouth job. As if it was beneath him, a complete novice as a manager, to go there. Ironically Bournemouth are now in the Premier League while QPR who currently employ Ferdinand have just been relegated to the Championship. Rather than bleating about not being offered the Man Utd job, go and do what so many other managers, even those who were high profile players, have done, start at the bottom, prove you can manage and then better offers will come in. In 2001 Mourinho was managing Uniao de Leiria.

 

Have you got a link to him 'whining' about that being the only job offered to him?

 

All I can find is an article where he says

 

"Great opportunities like that can come around, but sometimes you need to take a step back.

 

"People can snap things up a bit too quickly when they haven't done their ground work and I didn't want to make that same mistake.

 

"Some people will say that you learn better by going in there and doing it.

 

"But I felt I wanted to prepare myself properly because management is a very difficult job. If I fail, it will not be for a lack of preparation.

      

"I've just passed the LMA course in Warwick and if you've played at a high level, I think you have a four or five year window when you come out of football before people start forgetting who you are."

Ferdinand adds that he has only been offered one managerial job in seven years since he finished playing and that was at Bournemouth shortly after retiring. “I know lots of players that I play with who’d love to go into coaching and management and they’ve done all the badges but they just won’t get an opportunity.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/18/les-ferdinand-entrenched-racism-curbs-opportunities-bme-coaches

Ferdinand adds that he has only been offered one managerial job in seven years since he finished playing and that was at Bournemouth shortly after retiring. “I know lots of players that I play with who’d love to go into coaching and management and they’ve done all the badges but they just won’t get an opportunity.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/18/les-ferdinand-entrenched-racism-curbs-opportunities-bme-coaches

When i googled 'les Ferdinand Bournemouth' I noticed the lack of articles about it as well.

Edited June 5, 201511 yr by Blue Daze

 

Yes, they are. 

 

 

No, it's based on the answer to your initial question being 'yes they are underrepresented'.

 

 

Which completely ignores the possibility of institutional bias/racism in the game of football. If you're saying that the game is clean then that's fine, but I think the statistics undermine that.

 

19 out of the 552 senior coaching positions at England's 92 league clubs are held by black and ethnic minority (BME) coaches (November 2014).

 

That's 3.44% of coaches being non-white in a country that has roughly 13% non-white population.

 

When you see that around 30% of professional footballers are non-white, that figure becomes even more extreme.

 

Does that mean you think 87% of footballers should be white?

Does that mean you think 87% of footballers should be white?

also, what percentage of managers are asian?

Edited June 5, 201511 yr by dkw

also, what percentage of managers are asian?

That seems to be a very real, but very quiet issue.

also, what percentage of managers are asian?

 

And players, and coaches. Particularly Asian subcontinent.

Does that mean you think 87% of footballers should be white?

 

No, but when 30% of players are non-white and only 3% of coaches are, maybe there's an issue there we need to address. 

And players, and coaches. Particularly Asian subcontinent.

 

A very good point which is why Chelsea established the Asian Star initiative which is based on the same premise as the move to implement the Rooney Rule.

 

http://www.chelseafc.com/the-club/foundation/foundation-development/asian-star.html

 

Addressing an issue of underrepresentation of certain ethnic minorities. 

No, but when 30% of players are non-white and only 3% of coaches are, maybe there's an issue there we need to address.

You don't half come out with some sh*t!

Agree entirely with Blue Daze. It is quite unsettling that a largely well educated (and I assume progressive) group like the one on here resorts to talking about reverse/positive racism/discrimination whenever a thread like this one comes along (like the Asian one). Take a step back and talk to non-white friends and colleagues about reverse racism. It may not be the easiest thing to truly understand racism considering you are white. Racism is when an ethnic group in a position of power denies another less powerful group opportunities. In absolutely no way can there be racism against whites in today's (or past) social climates. Think about this before jumping in with a retort. I know people rarely change their opinions on anything but please give this a thought.

I don't know whether this measure will work or not but it is a step which at least hopes to bridge the disparity between the % of black players and the % of black/non-white managers. Can you think of any alternatives? Everyone (absolutely everyone) agrees that Led Ferdinand and Sol Campbell are idiots. This discussion is not about them. Should I mention Malky Mackay and Iain Moody every time we talk about such issues? No, because that would be unfair to the majority of white managers/people in power who are probably not racist. The talk is not about vocal or famous individuals but about bigger issues. Do justice to the issue and do not talk about those two idiots again. It does not serve any constructive purpose.

I think this is worth trying given its clear success in US. Let's see.

Not directed to Droogba, Richard, Blue Dave and Blue Daze.

I simply can't see why the need to do this though, unless you believe the majority of club owners/executive are racist, in which case educate them, pushing this rule on a racist owner/executive will surely just see them more entrenched. This rule will now likely see black coaches elevated above their level of skill or competence and interviewed ahead of more deserving candidates, which is wrong no matter what. Blue Dave got it bang on in my opinion, "a better approach would be to proactively encourage more black players to go into coaching/management after playing, and that way provide a naturally larger resource of black coaches and managers."

I really don't want to go down the route the Paris incident opened up, I just would like to note that this is a very complex issue. Quite often, it has been proven, white folk are not deliberately or openly racist, but subject to conditioning. This is not such an issue with some of the younger generation perhaps, but one that is apparent in certain sections of our society. Some folk, white and non white, are overtly racist of course, but it seems this discussion may be about something altogether more subtle.

Depending upon where you are in the country, try buying a child's birthday card depicting a non white child, or a non white baby doll, just as an example. (We have tried recently.)

Agree with this, dkw. As I said, I don't know if this is the way forward. I think that they have to make sure that all appointments are made entirely on merit and no pressure to recruit black managers is made. It will surely be unfair if it elevates anyone beyond their level of competence. This ruling will only work if black managers aren't getting the opportunities to make cases for themselves at all. If this is indeed the case, this ruling will be a positive step. The number of interviewed candidates cannot remain the same (say N). N + 1 candidates will have to be interviewed and the best chosen entirely on merit.

Edited June 6, 201511 yr by ashwin

I really don't want to go down the route the Paris incident opened up, I just would like to note that this is a very complex issue. Quite often, it has been proven, white folk are not deliberately or openly racist, but subject to conditioning. This is not such an issue with some of the younger generation perhaps, but one that is apparent in certain sections of our society. Some folk, white and non white, are overtly racist of course, but it seems this discussion may be about something altogether more subtle.

Depending upon where you are in the country, try buying a child's birthday card depicting a non white child, or a non white baby doll, just as an example. (We have tried recently.)

Right. These issues are a lot more complex than we may be led to believe.

Racism is when an ethnic group in a position of power denies another less powerful group opportunities. In absolutely no way can there be racism against whites in today's (or past) social climates.

 

I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish, and not even what people were talking about.

 

And everyone opposed's position was basically more eloquently put by blue dave.

I simply can't see why the need to do this though, unless you believe the majority of club owners/executive are racist, in which case educate them, pushing this rule on a racist owner/executive will surely just see them more entrenched. This rule will now likely see black coaches elevated above their level of skill or competence and interviewed ahead of more deserving candidates, which is wrong no matter what. Blue Dave got it bang on in my opinion, "a better approach would be to proactively encourage more black players to go into coaching/management after playing, and that way provide a naturally larger resource of black coaches and managers."

Which is pretty much another of the proposals being put forward in this initiative....but no one seems to have actually read into this beyond what ForeverCarefree chose to post.

Again, noone is being forced to hire anybody simpy interview them in the process (a process that does need other changes possibly).

Are owners racist? Probably not but they are overwhelmingly white males or a certain age in a lot of cases and anyone who has any experience at all of the working world knows people tend to hire people who they are either similar to or represent what they perceive 'success' to be.

This is a good measure, not just because we might get a couple of extra black managers but because we might actually be able to harness a greater percentage of the non-white players who aren't staying in the game yet might have something to offer to the next generation.

@Stim Sure, that's not what people were talking about. My statement was trying to address the underlying sense of wrong that some people seemed to feel. This was my take on those statements, Bluedave's was a different take on the same issue.

Edited June 6, 201511 yr by ashwin