Some people really need to learn to just let go

No he can't.

 

 

Who has said they aren't prepared to work in the lower levels without experience?

 

It's not really about the population differences, but look at the massive contributions non-whites have made on the pitch yet that doesn't seem to have carried over into coaching side and certainly isn't in the boardrooms (but that's a larger societal issue that is also being addressed....hopefully).

 

The bottom line is that if you think there is an issue, and most here seem to agree there is, then how do you go about addressing it in a meaningful way? These measures might actually do that and some have seen success in other countries so I really don't understand the objections to them.

 

 

Read my other posts, already answered this.

Read my other posts, already answered this.

 

I see, but you also seem to be focusing solely on the issue of managers when the issue goes far deeper than this. There's a massive underrepresentation issue throughout all levels of coaching when looking at the number of non-white players playing professionally. Now you're explanation of this is that black ex-pros think they're too good to ply their trade in the lower leagues unlike Jimmy Floyd whilst covert racism doesn't exist.

 

That to me seems unrealistic. Fact is you've named three people who that might pertain to (Barnes, Campbell and Ferdinand) although there's no directly attributable quote about them. In fact to some they seem rather interchangeable and have done from the start of this debate. No matter. We'll set that to one side for a moment.

 

This initiative which was selectively quoted in the OP for some reason I won't speculate on isn't simply about getting more managers from diverse backgrounds. It's about getting diversity throughout all levels of coaching. It's not simply about getting *insert one of the three black ex-pros mentioned previously* a manager's job at Man United but expanding opportunities for all non-white ex-pros at all levels of the game.

 

Now you may say there's no evidence of racism playing a role beyond the explicit examples of Dave Whelan etc.  but not a single person arguing for this would cite that type of obvious racism as evidence. Instead it's the covert racism that the majority of people who have experienced the world of work would probably have experience of. Football clubs are not as progressive as some may have you believe.

As in we'll let that one slide do you mean that I've provided more evidence to my claim than you have? Admittedly I gotten some of my claims wrong or even inaccurate but I still think the evidence was efficient at the very least.

 

I also never said covert racism doesn't exist I just believe that it's unfair to claim racism as the biggest factor to why there aren't a great deal of black coaches. When I think it is something that will change itself over the years, since we have more black players now, British black players should I say in the British leagues than we did in the early 90's, 80's and before that. A player will choose to become a coach once he has retired from football, common sense yes? Well there are more black players now by quite a large margin than there was back then, and today they still haven't retired from their playing careers. So until then we will see the difference. As of now a low portion but from the evidence I've seen and even the claim from some people I don't think it's good enough to even broadly put it as racism is the biggest factor. 

 

Racism is something that is taken very seriously, therefor it's not something we should just simply 'throw' in of a matter that has little claim and little evidence. And what I mean by that is when there are still perfectly logical explanations as I have just summarised in this post and earlier posts. 

Edited June 9, 201511 yr by Sloth

To add some balance, take a look at other employment, the education sector for one.

One of many articles.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/22/black-graduate-history-teachers-institutional-racism

Managerial

http://diversemag.co.uk/black-teachers-kept-out-of-top-posts/

Edited June 9, 201511 yr by Droogba

To add some balance, take a look at other employment, the education sector for one.

One of many articles.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/22/black-graduate-history-teachers-institutional-racism

Managerial

http://diversemag.co.uk/black-teachers-kept-out-of-top-posts/

 

With regards to the first link about the history teachers, again when you simplify it down to "only 3 candidates successful, lower acceptance rate than white counterparts" of course if can be perceived as racist/institutional racism but what these sorts of things rarely tell you are what were their qualifications in comparison to the successful applicants? 

 

If as a rule their grades were worse for arguments sake rather than just accepting more minority candidates on the courses let's look at the root cause, is the education they are receiving worse? If so why? Let's improve things from the bottom up rather than looking at the end result all the time. 

With regards to the first link about the history teachers, again when you simplify it down to "only 3 candidates successful, lower acceptance rate than white counterparts" of course if can be perceived as racist/institutional racism but what these sorts of things rarely tell you are what were their qualifications in comparison to the successful applicants? 

 

If as a rule their grades were worse for arguments sake rather than just accepting more minority candidates on the courses let's look at the root cause, is the education they are receiving worse? If so why? Let's improve things from the bottom up rather than looking at the end result all the time.

Indeed, it's a complex issue. I had hoped Obama would make a difference and that would filter over here, but the recent footage of the pool party fills me with horror and dismay.

Indeed, it's a complex issue. I had hoped Obama would make a difference and that would filter over here, but the recent footage of the pool party fills me with horror and dismay.

 

I'm on the fence about the pool party footage, apparently there was 30 minutes worth and there is a select 7 minute section that's doing the rounds. 

 

Obviously police brutality and racism is once again a topic for debate in America and tensions are running high all across the country. 

 

The pool party is pretty tame in comparison to what's gone on elsewhere recently. 

I'm on the fence about the pool party footage, apparently there was 30 minutes worth and there is a select 7 minute section that's doing the rounds. 

 

Obviously police brutality and racism is once again a topic for debate in America and tensions are running high all across the country. 

 

The pool party is pretty tame in comparison to what's gone on elsewhere recently.

A fourteen year old in a bikini pinned down and handcuffed was enough for me I'm afraid, not least kids having a gun pulled on them.

A fourteen year old in a bikini pinned down and handcuffed was enough for me I'm afraid, not least kids having a gun pulled on them.

 

It's a difficult one, the police present were doing their best to control a large crowd which must be extremely stressful. 

 

The girl in question was in and around the main hub of everything that was going on, was ushered away once but she continued to involve herself, the officer was clearly quite distressed by having to manage quite a large crowd but people have to be responsible for their actions I suppose. Probably was excessive by that particular policeman but his actions weren't the worst example of excessive force being used recently... Not that it makes it right of course. 

It might not have been the worst example but it was still appalling. A complete misuse of police power and whether there was racism behind it or not, it's quite obvious that trying to control a large crowd will be made harder if you pull out a gun and handcuff young girls (who were released after it transpired they were just bystanders). Especially with the recent history of police brutality regarding shooting black kids.

As in we'll let that one slide do you mean that I've provided more evidence to my claim than you have? Admittedly I gotten some of my claims wrong or even inaccurate but I still think the evidence was efficient at the very least.

 

I also never said covert racism doesn't exist I just believe that it's unfair to claim racism as the biggest factor to why there aren't a great deal of black coaches. When I think it is something that will change itself over the years, since we have more black players now, British black players should I say in the British leagues than we did in the early 90's, 80's and before that. A player will choose to become a coach once he has retired from football, common sense yes? Well there are more black players now by quite a large margin than there was back then, and today they still haven't retired from their playing careers. So until then we will see the difference. As of now a low portion but from the evidence I've seen and even the claim from some people I don't think it's good enough to even broadly put it as racism is the biggest factor. 

 

 

We're talking about the 'covert racism' that is evident in many areas, not just football. It's simply more noticeable because of the large number of non-white players and dearth of non-white coaches. Maybe it will organically change or maybe it won't. Racism didn't reduce drastically in the grounds simply organically. Instead there's a great debt owed to groups like Kick It Out whose campaigns helped to change the status quo.

 

Again, I can't see a good reason not to do this. You're not guaranteeing anyone a job and you're not going to do away with meritocracy simply by adding one more person to each interview process.

 

 

Racism is something that is taken very seriously, therefor it's not something we should just simply 'throw' in of a matter that has little claim and little evidence. And what I mean by that is when there are still perfectly logical explanations as I have just summarised in this post and earlier posts. 

 

And you're quite free to believe that they're true, but I (and the people who are obviously looking at implementing this set of measures) don't.

Indeed, it's a complex issue. I had hoped Obama would make a difference and that would filter over here, but the recent footage of the pool party fills me with horror and dismay.

 

We supplied many immigrants with benefits and I believe it's something that will pay off. 

 

Segregation in America is the biggest factor to this I reckon, institutionalized racism still plays its part and the dirt will never wash for quite some time. African Americans commit reportedly over 50% of the crime in the US today, despite making up for only 16% of the population, obviously this is a big side effect to segregation which I pointed out, as we are all common with American 'ghetto's' aren't we? 

 

The media causes an absolute sh*t storm to suit its own agenda, one part of the media portrays it as the black persons fault and that black people are more violent then the other makes it a police issue. But the truth is both areas clash, police brutality and racism isn't mutually exclusive, both are big factors that clash together. More white people actually die by police in America, however in ratio terms Blacks do outweigh it. Due to them committing more crime. Racism again isn't the biggest factor to play in it. Although institutionalized racism definitely. 

 

This incident though was absolutely shocking, this was all started by a white woman calling the police because there were too many black kids at a pool party. Then this trainee cop, who has only been suspended by the way comes along and does this. So this is the massive downfall we have to see. However again people still miss the point about racism in America, due to the media etc. 

 

I wasn't just replying to you Droogba, I was replying to the actual conversation, add some insight to the conversation we are relating too here. 

Edited June 9, 201511 yr by Sloth

Also to your reply Blue Daze I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, although I will add that I have no issue with them enforcing this, I just wish people wouldn't get this caught up in the idea of 'covert racism' or even 'racism' in general. That card gets played far too easily I reckon. 

It might not have been the worst example but it was still appalling. A complete misuse of police power and whether there was racism behind it or not, it's quite obvious that trying to control a large crowd will be made harder if you pull out a gun and handcuff young girls (who were released after it transpired they were just bystanders). Especially with the recent history of police brutality regarding shooting black kids.

 

 

A fourteen year old in a bikini pinned down and handcuffed was enough for me I'm afraid, not least kids having a gun pulled on them.

 

I know we're now straying way off topic but the season has finished, there's little else to discuss so f**k it. 

 

The Police officer involved in the incident is step down from his job.

 

At a news conference on Tuesday, McKinney police chief Greg Conley described Cpl Casebolt's actions as "indefensible".

 

"Our policies, our training, our practice, do not support his actions. He came into the call out of control and as the video shows, was out of control during the incident.

"I had 12 officers on the scene and 11 of them performed according to their training. They did an excellent job."

 

Can't say fairer than that I suppose. The police have acknowledged his actions were not within standard practice and the officer involved has, by stepping down, basically admitted wrong doing as well. 

 

Hopefully this leads to a shift conclusion of the matter and does not escalate into rioting we have seen elsewhere in America recently. 

Also to your reply Blue Daze I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, although I will add that I have no issue with them enforcing this, I just wish people wouldn't get this caught up in the idea of 'covert racism' or even 'racism' in general. That card gets played far too easily I reckon. 

 

I agree that the racism card does get played to regularly in some instances, but I don't think that should stop us from looking at the issue of race where it might be relevant.

Who has said we should stop looking at the issue of race where relevant?

Who has said we should stop looking at the issue of race where relevant?

I think he meant that measures like this one shouldn't immediately be considered forced and without merit.

 

I know we're now straying way off topic but the season has finished, there's little else to discuss so f**k it. 

 

The Police officer involved in the incident is step down from his job.

 

At a news conference on Tuesday, McKinney police chief Greg Conley described Cpl Casebolt's actions as "indefensible".

 

"Our policies, our training, our practice, do not support his actions. He came into the call out of control and as the video shows, was out of control during the incident.

"I had 12 officers on the scene and 11 of them performed according to their training. They did an excellent job."

 

Can't say fairer than that I suppose. The police have acknowledged his actions were not within standard practice and the officer involved has, by stepping down, basically admitted wrong doing as well. 

 

Hopefully this leads to a shift conclusion of the matter and does not escalate into rioting we have seen elsewhere in America recently. 

 

 

After re seeing the incident, I actaully think the cop is in the right.

 

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/06/08/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob-inside-the-craig-ranch-subdivision/

 

I advise people to give this a read, good perspecive, also shows the girls tweets who was 'attacked'

I think he meant that measures like this one shouldn't immediately be considered forced and without merit.

So we shouldn't question it, just accept it?

After re seeing the incident, I actaully think the cop is in the right.

 

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/06/08/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob-inside-the-craig-ranch-subdivision/

 

I advise people to give this a read, good perspecive, also shows the girls tweets who was 'attacked'

Who's zoomin who?! The stills are also misleading, the young guy making the 'stance' goes to help the girl when watched in motion. The officer cannot be condoned surely as his colleagues kept their cool and there was no serious threat to them. This isn't a one off and I find the woman worried about the neighbourhood questionable. Was there a real threat, or concern about local reputation and house prices.

On a slightly different matter the notion of a pool and swimming is interesting when reading this article. (The article for me is a little ott in emotion, but then I'm not in the writer's shoes, valid nonetheless.)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/08/mckinney-texas-black-children-pool-violence

After re seeing the incident, I actaully think the cop is in the right.

 

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/06/08/the-full-story-of-the-mckinney-texas-pool-mob-inside-the-craig-ranch-subdivision/

 

I advise people to give this a read, good perspecive, also shows the girls tweets who was 'attacked'

 

That's a load of crap which often is nothing more than a character assassination. It justifies the cop pulling out a gun because the black man may have had one... Now where have we heard that before with far worse consequences?

Who's zoomin who?! The stills are also misleading, the young guy making the 'stance' goes to help the girl when watched in motion. The officer cannot be condoned surely as his colleagues kept their cool and there was no serious threat to them. This isn't a one off and I find the woman worried about the neighbourhood questionable. Was there a real threat, or concern about local reputation and house prices.

On a slightly different matter the notion of a pool and swimming is interesting when reading this article. (The article for me is a little ott in emotion, but then I'm not in the writer's shoes, valid nonetheless.)http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/08/mckinney-texas-black-children-pool-violence

What did that guy do to help the girl? Rightly or wrongly the girl was being arrested /restrained after failing to ignore repeat orders to leave what being reported to the police by numerous locals as a mob gathering engaged in numerous illegal activities (drugs, fighting) amongst other issues. The man simply does nothing more than aggressively get in the cops face, he even goes as far as to take off his hat to show he is ready to throw down. You'll notice the two women trying to help actually go to the girl and not the cop where as the men target the cop and do nothing to go to the girl. Know what happens to her if she doesn't resist the detaintment (again not saying I agree with this action)? Probably same thing that happens to the numerous teenaged males who complied without resisting, being sat on the grass with no force used, who also happen to be black.

Also the gun is clearly pulled on the two males who got in the face of a cop trying to make an arrest, not the girl. The cop was a prick, no question, but he had just had to push two other teens off him while trying to detain a resisting teen and now had 2 males who look older than teen aggressively coming at him. That's 5 people directly acting against against a cop trying to make an arrest and he's surrounded by a large numerous of other unpredictables... what the hell do you think is going to happen in the situation regardless of race? Like seriously, how can anyone be shocked by that? I'd be thanking god I didn't catch a bullet for that level of stupid. The cop wasn't threatening the woman, just trying to detain her and she was clearly resisting. You don't do that even, and especially, if innocent. I'm not here saying that proves guilt or anything but just that it's incredibly stupid to resist any arrest in Canada/USA because it places your future and even your life at risk over what might be sorted in minutes and if worst in court. The gun is not pulled on the girl in any stretch of the imagination, and the cop is clearly putting it away after the men he pulled it on are no longer a threat. I also noticed he had no taser, this could be why he resorted to gun. Maybe a good thing as he didn't shoot because I'm sure the taser would of been deployed.

Colleagues kept their cool relatively I agree, but they were not calm. Numerous cops can be seen sprinting to situations as they develop and obviously tensions are nigh. To dimiss this is ridiculous bias at best, notice how they sprint to their officer to assist and pursue the men as opposed to trying to restrain him or even assist with detaining the girl? This cops are sprinting everywhere, that is not a sign of calmness or control over the situation but rather quite the opposite.

Lastly, if you think that didn't represent a situation that could of gotten very ugly/dangerous very fast, then I don't know what to say.

I think the cop was an aggressive prick who needs some training on how to defuse a situation such as with the first cop we saw talking to the youth until the cop in question showed up like he was quelling a riot. Police response was clearly required given the video tape of that fight alone, never mind the context of a huge party being thrown in violation of the property owners requests and rules. The behaviour of the police clearly show this is not a controlled situation.

I fail to see how this is automatically racism given the circumstances. Numerous teens are detained with no situation, one resists after multiple issuance to leave and surprise, there is a physical take down. Should he of arrested her? I'm not saying yes, but once that decision was made and she resisted he had to compel her with physical force. Or do people propose that police should just let go of people who resist?

As mentioned, numerous young black men are detained with no issue, only issues is the only one who physically resists and also the only woman. Those are the only two differences. So why racism? Why not an issue of it simply being resorting to force in the face of resisting or because she is female, as those are the only things unique in this action aside from the physical take down.

This is probably really long and redundant but I've seen this situation too many times to think this is racism. If these youth had been white i'd bet the house the outcome would of been identical had the actions been indentical. Know this, seen it many times with it getting worse than this (taser/baton deployed) and with everyone simply being detained with no physical resisting or force. This isn't racism, it's police responding to a bunch of unruly youth who are not helping the situation, as is typical of youth in large crowds and especially if any alcohol is around.

Racism and law enforcement is a huge issue that needs addressing, no doubt. Yet I can't see any solid evidence that points to that, the actions are logical ( if you've encountered the type of hero/assholes cop this video has displayed) for the actions regardless of race. I feel this is a case of the race card being used inappropriately to flip a situation and perhaps allow some to profit for it. I feel stuff like this does more to harm addressing the actual issue than good.

Edit: I just want to say that while aware of the incident, I didn't really look a it until seeing this post. I looked at both articles provided and each are clearly biased. What I did notice though, is how the author of the Guardian article even admitted he had made up his mind this was a racist attack before even looking at any of the primary evidence. I feel there is likely a lot of trial by media/emotion rather than critical analysis taking place.

I also state that the lack of white teenagers in the video make it near impossible to determine if there was a difference in treatment due to skincolor or if the actions were uniformly applied. If it comes to a group of teens vs numerous families/adults then let me assure you the teens always lose regardless of race.

Edited June 10, 201511 yr by Barry Bridges

I don't know if it's racism or not, but I do know abuse of power happens too much. 400 children were tazered in this country last year and I appreciate the term child will be subjective, but I've also arrived at a police station to be an appropriate adult only for a young lad with special needs having already been manipulated into signing this, that, the other.

I don't know if it's racism or not, but I do know abuse of power happens too much. 400 children were tazered in this country last year and I appreciate the term child will be subjective, but I've also arrived at a police station to be an appropriate adult only for a young lad with special needs having already been manipulated into signing this, that, the other.

Definitely agree that racism is not the only issue plagueing our law enforcement agencies. I think more and more training needs to be put into how to defuse situations without resorting to heavy handed tactics or violence. I would not be opposed for a independent body to audit cops by monitoring their interactions with the public in various circumstances. Police credibility is at an all time low I feel, I also feel that while it's a thankless job many times, it's also largely deserved. There's a lot of great cops but a ton of awful ones too who have no business carrying a badge and or gun.

That first speaking cop was doing a great job of relating to those kids, telling them why it's not a good idea to just run when you see cops etc. He was developing a rapport that would of allowed him to get greater cooperation from these youth not just in obedience but also helping to identify if there was any real danger or things of concern going on. I've seen many times when cops act like this and then are able to use that youth to help disburse and control the other youth by getting them to help calm the situation "hey go tell your friends to just chill for a bit/they need to go" etc. It's great at eliminating flash points like happened with the girl, youth just love to stand up to authority or act tough in front of it and especially when they feel safe doing so. That other cop came in and immediately undid what the other cop had begun to establish. If better training was given to preventing and defusing these types of situations, less training would be needed on how to respond with violence and I think that would be great for all ages and races.

Some cops seem more worried about ensuring their authority is enforced and not question than they are about maintaining peace and order. Sad.

Edited June 10, 201511 yr by Barry Bridges