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Joe vs Jose - problems...


Iceman

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Hope this is a load of bull.

Joe is a talented player and I would hate to see him fall out wit Jose especially as he has worked so hard to improve his overally game (such as tracking back, keeping the party tricks to a minimum).

The last thing we need is him going into a sulk.

Problem is that Joe has not been playing that well when he has come on in pre-season and SWP and Malouda are doing really well, so he is just going to have to be patient and take his chance when it comes.

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With Robben having departed, Joe will have a hugely increased role this season.

As far as him not starting at the moment, I would be very surprised if anyone can genuinely say that on current form, he deserves a place more than Wright-Philips or Malouda (or two best players in the first few weeks of the season).

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I hope there is little in this but would not be at all surprised if there is not at least a grain of truth in it.

After all, how can a player of Cole's ability be happy at getting 10 minutes here and 15 minutes there. And this after one of his main rivals for a place (Robben) has moved on and when he appears to be a nail on starter for his country but not for his club. How many times does he have to "knuckle down and prove himself" when others seem to walk in to the team regardless of form?

It must be demoralising to keep running up & down that touchline, hearing the fans chant your name and then not be given enough time to make any real impact on a game. Throughout Mourinho's time, Cole has come under fire on numerous occasions and never seems to get the praise when he does come good as the likes of Lampard etc do.

I just hope this gets nipped in the bud now and we see Cole getting a lot more chances to prove his worth. I know I have not been over concerned about Robben going, but if Joe did get to the point where he'd just had enough and left, that would mean in the last two seasons we had lost Eidur, Duffer, Robben and Joe and that is too many "flair" players to lose without it having an effect of some sort.

Back to route one I guess.......................

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unfortunately, joe wasn't and will never be as important as the players in the spine to jose- lamps, essien, jt, cech and drogba. same thing for all our wide players

he's competing for two spots and in pres season two players did better than he did, and thus they have started, and have played well. I'd hate to see him leave (and I don't think he would), but let's not kid ourselves- from a purely footballing perspective he isn't a player who dramatically changes our football, which has started pretty well so far with him on the bench (and again, was best under jose with him on the bench). he's a fantastic wide player IMO, but so far, swp and malouda have done too well to be dropped. I know people want to see some rotation, and I'm sure we will, but if it was joe in the side playing well, hands up how many people would be calling for malouda to be in the side on the basis of a game for france?

I really don't think you can say swp and malouda have "walked in to the team regardless of form?"

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It's been screamingly obvious for years that Joe suits a Football Club better than an Athletics Club.

He will continually have to prove himself to the coach as the coach fundamentally distrusts him.

I have to say it a cause of constant amusement to me how the Mourinho fans who are also Joe fans refuse to acknowledge this. Continually naming Joe in their line-ups, when Joe is injured stating that when Joe is back everyting will be alright, while ignoring the fact that when he is fit he doesn't play.

Joe doesn't fit Mourinho's eye. It would be better for him, and for football in general because he's a joy to watch, if he moved on.

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unfortunately, joe wasn't and will never be as important as the players in the spine to jose- lamps, essien, jt, cech and drogba. same thing for all our wide players

he's competing for two spots and in pres season two players did better than he did, and thus they have started, and have played well. I'd hate to see him leave (and I don't think he would), but let's not kid ourselves- from a purely footballing perspective he isn't a player who dramatically changes our football, which has started pretty well so far with him on the bench (and again, was best under jose with him on the bench). he's a fantastic wide player IMO, but so far, swp and malouda have done too well to be dropped. I know people want to see some rotation, and I'm sure we will, but if it was joe in the side playing well, hands up how many people would be calling for malouda to be in the side on the basis of a game for france?

I really don't think you can say swp and malouda have "walked in to the team regardless of form?"

With that last comment I wasn't referring to SWP & Malouda. On that basis you are suggesting that Joe can only ever be picked as a wide player. He plays wide or not at all? Okay, so he may have been pretty effective from a wide position but we all know he's more than just that. I was talking about in the past when the likes of Ballack, Lamps get selected time after time even when their form was nowhere near great. All I'm getting at is that some players appear to be able to have good games and bad games and it's not a problem. With Joe he can have a great game one week but if his form dips the next he pays with his place.

So you're right, SWP and Malouda have had a good(ish) start to the season and I would agree, it would be harsh to drop them to make way for Joe. But that said, neither were that good against Pompey nor were they that great against Liverpool either so if either or both fail to shine if selected against Villa, one would assume Joe will get his chance in the next game.

On the other hand...........................

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It's been screamingly obvious for years that Joe suits a Football Club better than an Athletics Club.

He will continually have to prove himself to the coach as the coach fundamentally distrusts him.

I have to say it a cause of constant amusement to me how the Mourinho fans who are also Joe fans refuse to acknowledge this. Continually naming Joe in their line-ups, when Joe is injured stating that when Joe is back everyting will be alright, while ignoring the fact that when he is fit he doesn't play.

Joe doesn't fit Mourinho's eye. It would be better for him, and for football in general because he's a joy to watch, if he moved on.

I fear you may be right Liam.

I know you are not a Mourinho fan and I have had many a gripe during his time to date. I don't like the way he favours certain players and seems happy to grind games out. Go 1--0 up and then shut up shop. Hate the "Death of Football" midfleld. Don't like the way he is so ungracious in defeat or when things don't go his way - it always seems to be somebody else's fault. But I do still admire him in many ways. He is a winner and I guess you have to accept the bad with the good, as hard as that may be at times. After all, who can argue with his record - still undefeated at the Bridge during all that time.

But in Joe's case, you could well be right. Perhaps under Mourinho he is only ever going to be a bit player and he does deserve more than that. Makes you realise why someone like Le Tissier staid at Southampton like he did. Okay, it may have shown a complete lack of ambition, but at least he can look back on his career (albeit a pretty unfulfilled one) and know that his clubs fans will always view him as a legend. If he had have moved to a big club, perhaps he could foresee the kind of thing Joe is going through now.

If it was me and I had the sort of skill and ability that Joe has or a Le Tissier had, I think I would rather play week in week out and enjoy my football, rather than pick up honours and medals but have that pretty empty feeling in knowing that you didn't contribute anywhere near as much as you should have.

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Joe is not a midfield player in my opinion. He is certainly not an alternative to Ballack, Lampard, Essien etc. He is an attacker who can play wide or in behind a main striker. At the moment both Malouda and SWP have earned their right to play based on pre season and then the early matchesof the campaign. I would like to see Joe given the opportunity to play off Drogba in our current 4-4-2 formation. I can't see Drogba and Pizarro working as a combination as they are too similar. They spent most of Saturday's game getting in each others way.

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Agree - to an extent - with Ethical here.

IMO he should've been used as the front tip of the diamond last season. That's his best position.

Gone the diamond...can play as a winger*, although won't be as sucessfull as in the center IMO.

This is all considering I do give a rat's ass, because as some of you might have perceived, I'm not exactly a member of the [fade]Joe Cole fan club[/fade].

* Not a conventional winger (run to the line and cross), more of a "cut inside" and shoot or assist.

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SWP at his best is still only good enough to be cover for Joe Cole in my opinion. Not many players out there can create like Cole does and I still don't think SWP produces enough at the end of his runs.

Joe Cole finished last season and started this so determined to make up for his injuries last year that JM should have harnessed that and used it to devestating effect, instead it seems that one of our best players is sitting on the sidelines getting disenchanted and generally pissed off.

This post was not meant to be a dig at SWP who has started this season really well, it's just based on my view of the one area in the team that I think JM has got it wrong this season.

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Barn

I would actually prefer to see Joe on the left and SWP on the right with Malouda dropping down to the bench. This is based purely on form so far this season. Although Malouda has been good I am still not as blown away by him as some people seem to be. I think SWP has been better and thus deserves to keep his place more.

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Could be true, but really Joe Cole doesnt warrant a place in the side atm with Malouda and SWP playing so well.

Yeah. Of course you're right. What was I thinking of. I've been foolishly blinded by the odd bit of show boating. He's rubbish really. Get Rid.

We need a team of strapping six footers who can play and understand the modern game and help us dominate world football for many years to come.

And if SWP wants to continue to be a part of it he best find himself a grow bag.

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Could be true, but really Joe Cole doesnt warrant a place in the side atm with Malouda and SWP playing so well.

Yeah. Of course you're right. What was I thinking of. I've been foolishly blinded by the odd bit of show boating. He's rubbish really. Get Rid.

We need a team of strapping six footers who can play and understand the modern game and help us dominate world football for many years to come.

And if SWP wants to continue to be a part of it he best find himself a grow bag.

I just don't think he warrants a place in the team at the moment.

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Not many players out there can create like Cole does

I'm a huge Cole fan, I love his attitude and agree he can create havoc in defences. But I'm wondering exactly how much he produces in terms of actual assists, crosses etc. I've never seen those stats on him.

He does create confusion, from which others often profit, but I think he needs to improve his finishing and I'm not convinced his final ball is always the correct one (although his passing can be sublime).

Anyone got detailed stats?

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The thing is...some posters/supporters consider Joe Cole to be the english Pele, or even a worldwide Pele. My opinion about him and the team has got nothing to do with supressing flair, skill or creativity. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

IMO if we want the best of the best in that department, Joe Cole is not gonna provide it.(Neither is JM, mind you).

If we want the best, we gotta have the best, and while I'm not AT ALL defending we should buy any of them, the thing is...for that showboating we need Kaka, Ronaldinho, Cristiano, Robinho, Saviola, etc.

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The thing is...some posters/supporters consider Joe Cole to be the english Pele, or even a worldwide Pele. My opinion about him and the team has got nothing to do with supressing flair, skill or creativity. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

IMO if we want the best of the best in that department, Joe Cole is not gonna provide it.(Neither is JM, mind you).

If we want the best, we gotta have the best, and while I'm not AT ALL defending we should buy any of them, the thing is...for that showboating we need Kaka, Ronaldinho, Cristiano, Robinho, Saviola, etc.

the fact that you ad cristiano, robinho and saviola to that list negates everything you say and just show's ya up for a "better to buy forighn because the english arnt that good merchant"

Dont worry portuga, im not just going to attack your post with out explantion.

Cristiano had a storming season last year no two ways about it pretty much draged manur to the title however he previouse 3 years where full of fancy tricks and no end product. I used to love it when he got the ball out wide becaue you knew he would wast the optimum time to cross it and let every opposition player get back in to position while he ponced arround. He was fast becoming a player that promised so much but deliverd so little! Now if we compare that to cole in his last couple of season that he has not been plagued by injury he was the most consistent and attacking force we have.. people with one season memorys like you seem to display above will not remmeber that, i suggest ya probably not strain ya self trying!! season before that i can pick out games that are every bit as impressive as any player you have names, barca and bayarn to name a few...

Performing and dictating on the big occation, somthing a couple of players on your list have never really managed but ill get to that. Basicaly becaues of the "one season memory" syndrome that i mentioned you have decided that cristiano is better because he was great in a season when cole was injured for most of it while if we look at them over the past 4 years are you honestly trying to tell me cry on the telly ronnaldo has been better? if you are you need a new telly!!

As for saviola and robinio, are you actually seriouse. Robinio has failed to impress in spain and is offten museled out of games in a league that should suit him far more than the EPL and savilo has never produced on the big stage. Neither are as good as cole, there just south ammeican thus you have a crush on them!! And more importantly neither have the mental tenacity that cole has and would have left the club a long time ago under the scurtiny that cole has had to deal with!!

Which brings me to my final point really.... if its true im not all that supprised. Put your self in cole's position, has any player had to work harder to proove them selves to Jose, has any player had to take as much public critasisem from jose. And yet he still comes back working harder for himself and the team to try and proove a point. Now SWP and malouda have played well this season but i just happen to think that cole is a better player than both. best crosser of the ball along with bridge at the club and can effect the game out wide or in the middle!! a striker he aint but then we all new that!!

Now regardless of form you have to be thinking to your self if your Joe, look over there at ballack, take a look at sheva last season... hell lets stair at frank!! all players that by there own standards had poor seasons last year and yet continued to be picked week in week out! because of what they may be able to do when they find a bit of form. Joe must be thinking that he hasnt actually done an awfull lot wrong, not actually had a dip in form but still cant earn the kind of trust showen in those guys, sooner or later your going to snap.

PS sofa/portuga, let me respond on your behalf. "your english and your favoiret player is joe cole so you would say that,"

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Can I also just point out that the season has only just begun!

Why on earth would Joe throw his toys after only 4 games, when, if last season is anything to go by, we have a HUGE number to come? If Malouda and SWP don't produce in the next few games, then I'm sure Joe will get his chance, and if he takes it, then I'm sure a run in the team will follow and it will be up to the others to replace him.

Why so many are so worried about his future is beyond me!

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