Munich and all that ....

[clubhappy]

Am I the only one f**king sick of the whole ''Our great team died '' god knows how long ago media circus ? I wont apologise if i come across as being insenctive or being a downright bar steward , but to be really honest , i've had over 30 years of the Munich air disaster and i cant really be arsed with this 50th annaversary. Christ, i wasnt even born when it happened. Ok, a great team perished , but the downside, Bobby [Mr Man Utd ] survived , so thats enough to want me to ignore the whole fiasco. Great footballer but ....

Man City fans are dreading the thought of paying homage to a group of players, from a team that are their biggest rivals and to be honest i cant really blame them. Ok, a bit of respect is in order , but it happens every 5 years . 10 years, 15 years, 20 years , 25 years etc etc . When is it going to end , no really, im all for the nostalgic thing , respect , show emotion but for f**k sake , it was a long time ago and im sick of being asked to pay homage to them, shout from the roof tops ,remind the world etc etc . Im sure City fans will respect whats asked from them but as far as im concerned , it's way over exposed and f**king irritating.

I dont apologise for this post, so please feel free to call me anything you want , i'll take it on the chin , disrespectful, un symathyic, whatever, im just fed up for the last 30 odd years hearing about the Munich air disaster. Its not that important to me.

Let it be a Man United thing , do it in-house, away from rival fans and drop the sympathy

[BlueBeard]

I agree with you totally clubhappy. When it comes to Munich, the mancs are right up there with the scousers when it comes to self pity and martyrdom. The Munich disaster was a terrible thing, but life goes on - especially after 50 years. There's far too much of this organised grief for my liking - it sometimes seems as if there's hardly a match goes by nowadays without a minute's silence beforehand, or some team wearing black armbands.

Away from football, of course, if you go for a drive you see the flowers by the roadside where there's been a fatal accident - something I've never understood. If a bereaved person feels the need to place flowers in memory of their loved one, surely the graveside is the place to do it?

I was brought up in an age when grief was a fairly private affair, kept within the family of the deceased. It should have stayed that way, at least death was treated with respect and dignity - today it seems that a lot of people want to wallow in their grief and let the whole world know that they've lost someone. Maybe if they took a step back, they'd realise that every single person in the world loses a loved one at least once in their lifetime - it's very upsetting and unpleasant, but ultimately we just have to get on with it.

[Guest Brian M]

It would be interesting to hear any thoughts from the older fans on here who remember this horrific event.

---------------------------

United in grief - and in hope

Half a century on from the fateful night when a golden generation suffered terrible losses on the runway of a foreign airfield, John Roberts recalls the men who put together a replacement Manchester United team in the days that followed and sent them on a remarkable FA Cup run - from the deputy who had been left behind to the player persuaded to join the club an hour before kick-off

Sunday January 27, 2008

The Observer

James Patrick Murphy, a Celt if ever there was one, born in the Rhondda of a Welsh mother and Irish father, poured a lifetime of heartbreak and mental and physical torment into the crowded weeks that followed the Munich air disaster. He saved Manchester United, pulled together the flimsy fabric of what was left of a great club and somehow kept his sanity, common sense and judgment to be able to ride the waves of emotion that washed over the city.

Thinking back to that incredible time, he described the team's recovery as 'a miracle. Nothing to do with Jimmy Murphy, all due to our good Lord.'

Murphy, Matt Busby's assistant and also the Wales national team manager, had stayed behind to guide his country successfully through a World Cup playoff match against Israel in Cardiff. 'I usually sat next to Matt on the plane and had the next room to his at the hotel whenever the team went away and I had suggested that I went to Belgrade, with it being such an important European Cup game. He had said, "No, Jimmy, you have a job to do," so [the coach] Bert Whalley went to Belgrade in my place,' he recalled.

'I will never forget that Thursday. I arrived back in Manchester by train from Cardiff and had with me a large box of oranges presented to me by the Israelis. I got a taxi, put the box of oranges inside, and off we went to Old Trafford.

'Usually there was a lot of activity at the ground, but when I arrived everything seemed very quiet. I lifted out the box of oranges, put it inside the main entrance and went upstairs to the boardroom, carrying my briefcase.

'It had been a long, tiring journey and I poured myself a glass of Scotch. Alma George, Matt's secretary, came in and told me about the crash. I didn't take it in at all. I just poured Alma a glass of sherry and carried on sipping my Scotch.

'Alma said, "I don't think you understand. The plane has crashed. A lot of people have died."' She was right. I did not understand. So she told me a third time and this time she started to cry. A good few minutes had elapsed and suddenly Alma's words began to take effect on me. I went into my office and cried.

'Suddenly, after all the silence, the ground came to life again as the telephones began a ceaseless ringing and relatives started to arrive. It is hard to describe how difficult things became. That night, as I answered the telephones and tried to sort out just what was happening, I went through a bottle of Scotch without even noticing it.

'Next day I flew to Munich with the relatives of the survivors and saw first-hand the suffering and the heartbreak. I saw Duncan Edwards, who mumbled, "Oh, it's you, Jimmy. Is the kick-off three o'clock?" He was still thinking of the next match even though he was so terribly injured. And Matt was in an oxygen tent and, as I bent close, he whispered, "Keep the flag flying, Jimmy." Matt had not long been out of hospital before the trip to Belgrade. He had had a minor operation on his legs.

'I travelled back with Bill Foulkes and Harry Gregg and, amid all the tragedy and all the sorrow, I had to get a team together again. I had to find players from somewhere.

'How can I describe what it was like? I was completely alone, isolated. There was no Matt Busby, no Bert Whalley. No one I could talk with on my level as far as the team was concerned.

'People wanted to help but they could not give me the help I wanted. I didn't need people to open letters and help in ways like that. I needed players. Liverpool and Nottingham Forest offered to do what they could, but I was left trying to sort out what I had, what was needed and what I could get. And the relatives kept coming to the ground, naturally, anxious for the latest news.

'Then the coffins started to arrive at the ground. We put them in the old gymnasium, which was where the players' lounge is now. And there were all the funerals. And all the time I was wondering where I could get players. The League game against Wolves had been postponed, but things had to be done quickly. No one knows what I went through during that time.

'I managed to sign Ernie Taylor from Blackpool and he did a magnificent job for us with his skill and experience. He had been offered a job by Sunderland, but Paddy McGrath, our friend from the Cromford Club [a local nightspot], brought Ernie over to see me and I managed to persuade him to join us over a glass of beer. It was important to get the players away from Old Trafford, away from the atmosphere of death, away from Manchester and all the emotion. We virtually lived at the Norbreck Hydro in Blackpool.'

Bill Foulkes, the United defender, who went on to triumph with the team in the 1968 European Cup final, remembered those days vividly. 'We had to get away from Manchester,' he said. 'Everyone meant well, of course, but the last thing we needed was their sympathy. It was terribly difficult and upsetting. Ernie Taylor played a wonderful part in our fightback and it was a difficult time for him because he had just lost his son in a road accident.'

Murphy thought of signing Ferenc Puskas, who had left his native Hungary after the uprising, but reasoned that the maximum wage and the restriction on foreign players in operation in English football at that time would make such a move almost impossible. So, after signing Ernie Taylor for £8,000, Murphy approached Aston Villa for the hard-tackling Stan Crowther, who had helped end United's FA Cup dreams at Wembley the previous May.

Eric Houghton, the Villa manager, put the proposition to Crowther, who said he did not want to leave Villa. Houghton then asked Crowther if he would go with him to watch United play their FA Cup tie against Sheffield Wednesday, 13 days after Munich, and Crowther agreed.

To help them, the Football Association had allowed United to rearrange the fifth-round tie and had also waived the rule that prevented a player from representing more than one club in the FA Cup in any one season.

On the way to the match, Houghton told Crowther: 'You ought to help them.' Crowther said he had not got his boots. 'I've brought them with me,' said Houghton. They met Murphy at United's hotel and Crowther was persuaded to sign, for a fee of £22,000, less than an hour before he played in the match.

It was an experience Manchester will never forget as a crowd of 60,000 poured into Old Trafford. The poignancy of the occasion was symbolised by the match programme, in which the team sheet contained 11 blank spaces where the names of United players should have been.

Mike Dempsey, of the Daily Express, remembered 'a night of incredible emotion; weeping, wailing, and even fans shouting inadvertently the names of dead players when the excitement overtook them'.

Murphy made Foulkes captain to lead out a team including two survivors (Foulkes and Gregg), five reserves who had made rare first-team appearances and youngsters Mark Pearson and Shay Brennan, who were making their debuts, and the new signings, Taylor and Crowther.

Wednesday were beaten by the emotion before they had a chance to kick the ball. United won 3-0 and Brennan, usually a wing-half, scored two of the goals.

'I played Shay Brennan on the left wing and he scored one of those goals straight from a corner kick,' said Murphy, who guided the makeshift team all the way to Wembley, only to lose the final to Bolton Wanderers 2-0.

'It was amazing how we made progress with a mixture of the players I signed and the lads from the reserves and A team,' Murphy said. 'But what we did have, above all else, was the interests of the club at heart.'

Bobby Charlton, destined to become one of the greatest players in English football history, a World Cup winner and knight of the realm, recovered from his Munich injuries in time to rejoin the team for their sixth-round FA Cup replay against West Bromwich Albion.

'What we achieved after the crash had a lot to do with enthusiasm,' said Charlton, 'but it was all made possible by the work done previously by Joe Armstrong [the United scout], Jimmy Murphy and Bert Whalley in bringing the lads through. We were able to manage only because there were so many good youngsters still available. They had to be thrown in at the deep end, but the point is they were there. Otherwise the recovery would not have been possible. Not the way it happened.

'We also had something else going for us, because immediately after the crash there was no glory for any team that beat us, because we were not really a side. Our opponents just could not win. I saw the Cup tie against Sheffield Wednesday and I felt sorry for Sheffield because as far as the crowd was concerned there was only one team out there.'

Ian Greaves, who went on to manage Huddersfield Town and Bolton Wanderers, was one of the United reserves thrust into the first team after Munich. 'When we beat Sheffield Wednesday it was an electrifying night, but there was no cheering going on in the dressing room afterwards,' he said. 'We were all sad. I always felt as if we were cheating somehow. Stepping into other people's shoes.'

Ken Morgans, a Munich survivor who played on the right wing for United until the start of the 1960s, when he was transferred to Swansea, his home town, marvelled at Murphy's inspirational qualities. 'He had a way of talking to players,' he said. 'He could have put a 15-year-old in that team and he would have been a success.'

Busby, who went on to create another great side in the 1960s with Murphy by his side and received a knighthood, was a spectator on crutches at Wembley in 1958 when United lost to Bolton. 'It must have been a terrible time for Jimmy and everyone at the club after the crash,' Busby said. 'It needed someone who, though feeling the heartbreak of the situation, could still keep his head and keep the job going. Jimmy was that man.'

Adapted from 'The Team That Wouldn't Die - The Story of the Busby Babes' by John Roberts (Aurum Press, £8.99)

Grim toll when disaster struck flight 609

Twenty-three people died as a result of the Munich air disaster on 6 February 1958. A British European Airways Elizabethan, returning from Belgrade, where Manchester United had won a European Cup quarter-final 5-4 on aggregate, against Red Star Belgrade. The plane crashed on take-off after refuelling. Eight of the victims were Manchester United footballers: Geoffrey Bent, Roger Byrne, Eddie Colman, Duncan Edwards, Mark Jones, David Pegg, Tommy Taylor and Liam Whelan. Three were members of the club's staff: Walter Crickmer, the secretary, trainer Tom Curry and Bert Whalley, the coach. Eight were newspaper representatives: Alf Clarke of the Manchester Evening Chronicle, Don Davies of The Guardian, George Follows of the Daily Herald, Tom Jackson of the Manchester Evening News, Archie Ledbrooke of the Daily Mirror, Henry Rose of the Daily Express, Eric Thompson, of the Daily Mail, and Frank Swift, the former Manchester City and England goalkeeper, of the News of the World.

Two were members of the BEA crew: Captain Kenneth Rayment, the co-pilot, and Tom Cable, a steward. Two other passengers also died: Bela Miklos, wife of the travel agent, and Willie Satinoff, a supporter.

As Matt Busby, the United manager, fought for his life in a Munich hospital, his assistant, Jimmy Murphy, was left to put together a team to play an FA Cup fifth-round tie against Sheffield Wednesday at Old Trafford, 13 days after the crash.

[dkw]

they lost my sympathy on sunday when i saw an advert for mutv on the advertising boards at old trafford for a 50th anniversary programme. then it said to watch it you had to sign up for mutv.......sickening.

[Guest mark]

Clubhappy & dkw ... Any viewing of the history will reveal this as a tragedy that was a lot wider than just Manchester United. We're talking about a tragedy that hit the city of Manchester very hard. It may have been a budding United team that was lost but Man City legend Frank Swift also died and other than the 8 players that died, the other 15 fatalaties were made up of journalists & officials.

This stuff all happened in the dark days of the 50s, way before British clubs had made any mark at all in Europe. Who knows how good England may have been in advance of 1966 had Edwards made his mark on the team. I know a lot of United fans and I've never heard of them going on about it, in fact it tends to be rival supporters with sick chants. Right? Some things are beyond football rivalries and human tragedy is one of them, as witnessed by the reactions to the terrible tragedies to have hit the game recently (Phil O'Donnell, Antonio Puerta etc..)

And as a quick final point, I was actually surprised by the lack of commercialising of things. MUTV will be free for a day on the 6th minus any advertising, as will the team shirts of both City and United for the MCR derby on the 10th(?), which won't be on sale.

1958 a long time ago? Do you not know any people in their 50s?! Or are you suggesting we forget about football history including the likes of Ted Drake, Peter Bonetti, Bobby Tambling etc...

Have a bit of respect.

[Barn]

Got to say I agree with Mark here, it's the 50th anniversary, I've never felt that it's been rammed down my throat. My dad was telling me the other day about what a sad day it was and what a negative effect it had on the national team - believe me he hates manu as much as any of us, but he sees it as a footballing tragedy not a manu one!

I do think that unless a manu fan comes on the site banging on about it and telling us how we should feel, any negative (disrespectfull) thoughts about this should be kept to yourself.

[Liam]

Ok, a bit of respect is in order , but it happens every 5 years . 10 years, 15 years, 20 years , 25 years etc etc .

I agree with you here Clubhappy. Sympathy fatigue sets in when every single excuse to pay respects is exploited. 50th anniversery is fine as long as they leave it until the 75th before having another orgy of remembrance.

[dkw]

i didnt know mutv was gonna be free. therefore i apologise.

[glory55]

I do feel sorry for the relatives who have had to deal with this horrific accident.

However I also feel that this whole thing is pushed about too much by the media and the club itself.

The club are using their sponsors (AIG) on memorial posters...how low can you get!

And the worst thing about this whole thing is the City fans are already being labelled for something that hasn't yet happened (booing the silence),why do they condemn/criminalise football supporters so quickly???

Have a minutes silence and then lets just crack on with the football,because im not one for wallowing in greif!

Football is my escape.

[BLUENUT]

Clubhappy & dkw ... Any viewing of the history will reveal this as a tragedy that was a lot wider than just Manchester United. We're talking about a tragedy that hit the city of Manchester very hard. It may have been a budding United team that was lost but Man City legend Frank Swift also died and other than the 8 players that died, the other 15 fatalaties were made up of journalists & officials.

This stuff all happened in the dark days of the 50s, way before British clubs had made any mark at all in Europe. Who knows how good England may have been in advance of 1966 had Edwards made his mark on the team. I know a lot of United fans and I've never heard of them going on about it, in fact it tends to be rival supporters with sick chants. Right? Some things are beyond football rivalries and human tragedy is one of them, as witnessed by the reactions to the terrible tragedies to have hit the game recently (Phil O'Donnell, Antonio Puerta etc..)

And as a quick final point, I was actually surprised by the lack of commercialising of things. MUTV will be free for a day on the 6th minus any advertising, as will the team shirts of both City and United for the MCR derby on the 10th(?), which won't be on sale.

1958 a long time ago? Do you not know any people in their 50s?! Or are you suggesting we forget about football history including the likes of Ted Drake, Peter Bonetti, Bobby Tambling etc...

Have a bit of respect.

Nice post. Well said.

[BLUENUT]

Ok, a bit of respect is in order , but it happens every 5 years . 10 years, 15 years, 20 years , 25 years etc etc .

I agree with you here Clubhappy. Sympathy fatigue sets in when every single excuse to pay respects is exploited. 50th anniversery is fine as long as they leave it until the 75th before having another orgy of remembrance.

Did we have a 10 year anniversary of Matthew Hardings passing with a minute silence recently? .

Now when you set up a 'justice for the 96' or a 'free Michale Shields campaign', thats a different story.There's nothing wrong with showing a bit of respect when and where it's due.

Just to mention the Spurs fans at the Matthew Harding game, everyone thought they'd ruin the day, but the match was played out in the most sombre atmosphere I've every experienced and Spurs supports were a credit to their club that day. See Manchester......Some can show respect, but rarely receive the credit when thewy do.

[loz]

I have no problem with it and I think we, as a club, would do the same if we were involved in such an incident. There have been a number of football related disasters over the years which are commemorated on a periodic basis (be it annually or at major milestones). Whether it be Munich, Heysel, Ibrox, Hillsbrough or Bradford.

Yes you can argue that some of the events were actually caused by fans of the club now commemorating them but that doesn’t mean the people that died are guilty or that their family deserve the suffering and they are the ones whose lives are being remembered.

I have a general philosophy when it comes to memorials (football or otherwise) and that is that whilst there are still people alive who were affected by them then it is a kind and appropriate gesture to pay a little respect and give the survivors (by that I mean people directly involved but also family and friends of those who died) a little special moment albeit nothing in comparison to what they have lost.

Those people who don’t want to, or see little value, or think it is excessive fair enough but does it really hurt to just ignore it?

There are of course many many more tragic events across the world which see a lot more people die and we don’t necessarily have period events to mark all of those however a lack of remembrance for some event shouldn’t be seen as a reason not to have one for others.

[Tim W]

A bit of respect costs nothing - got to remember footballers wern't superstars on inflated wages back then but regular lads who you could have a chat and a pint with.

[Lofty]

Ok, I'd like to make a few points. Fristly, while I agree that personal grief is a private thing, this was very much a public event. Hate the Mancs as much as you like, the Munich air crash had a massive effect on their history, that reverberates down to this very day. All you need to do is try to imagine if it had been Chelsea players who died 50 years ago - the argument that 50 years is time enough to let it lie simply doesn't hold water, any more than saying that the First World War finished 90 years ago so forget about it.

Imagine if this had been a Liverdisease tragedy - not only would they hold annual remembrances, they'd want every other team in the country to do the same. And that, in my opinion, would be very wrong.

Finally, a word on Bobby Charlton - Bluebeard, you must have been at his last game, which just happened to be at Stamford Bridge? Brilliant day, the most trouble-free encounter I can remember between us and the Mancs, and even the Shed were chanting Bobby Charlton.

[BlueBeard]

Obviously I have respect for the people who died in the Munich disaster, just as I have respect and the utmost sympathy for their families and loved ones who had to deal with their grief - I would have thought that would have gone without saying.

But, however much I sympathise with Manchester United FC for what they also went through, I don't agree with these constant anniversary events - they serve no purpose other than to let fans wallow in 'grief' - and the majority of those fans weren't even born when it happened.

This is a fairly recent thing - I don't remember too much being made of the anniversaries in 1968, 1978 or 1983 - people were different back then, and showed their respects in a quieter and more dignified way. All this huge outpouring of public 'grief' started with Hillsborough and escalated alarmingly with Princess Diana's funeral. Unfortunately it seems to have become the norm.

I would honestly feel the same way if it had been Chelsea involved rather than the mancs. I will always respect those who have died and the ones they left behind, but I refuse to be part of a public circus of grief. If that makes me sound a bit callous, so be it - we've all got our own ways of dealing with things.

And Lofty - yes, I was at Bobby Charlton's last game at the Bridge. I remember Chelsea fans singing Bobby Charlton's name, but I didn't join in - I never did like the bloke!

[Barn]

Bluebeard I'm sure you're the same person that when talking about the majority of Chelsea's current fans have said that they have no idea of what Chelsea is really all about (and for the record I'd agree with that), fans can only be a part of a clubs history if they're made to feel a part of it. That means reminding them of important events that have happened, be they good, bad or indifferent. If Munich had been shoved down our throats like some other incidents have then fair enough, but to claim that as most manu fans weren't even born when the munich disaster happened it should just be forgotten is a stark contradiction to a number of other opinions. If they're weren't your opinions and I getting mistaken for someone else then I apologise!

[TheWestwayWonder]

In regards to this tragedy having been hung onto too long by ManU supporters, many fans (such as I) do not have the luxury of having supported teams for decades or more. I would like to say I have been a blue since birth, but I only started following football 5 years anyway, and to alot of people that just makes me a phony.

With many ManU fans, alot of them have a reputation for being so as well, but rememberances like this help keep fans of all ages in touch with the club's history. History is important, as Chickenpool always remind us, and supporters should be kept in touch with it even if it was eons before they were born. Like Loz just said, if this was Chelsea it happened to, it would be certainly remembered by us reverently. To say nothing of the fact that this was a defining and saddening event for the City of Manchester (people liken it to the "Kennedy Assassination" moment in America) and for English National football. I think Barn just hit this point right on the head

And as some have said here, i dont beleive the commemorations are out of order. In fact prior to this year being such a landmark anneversary, I dont believe i remember hearing about a planned moment of silence until i read a match report. I am glad that Matthew Harding is held in such esteem by this club. The death of an individual or individuals so important to the club (unlike, say, campaigning for an individual like Michael Shields) is something to be remembered and rememebered often....but not crammed down the throats of others.

Not that my opinion matters more than anyone elses, but I think this is something over which we should have solidarity and compassion with the Mancs. Matthew Harding was never on the same scale as the Munich crash, but commemorating a premature death in a medium like football should never be considered uncouth or annoying. I doesnt pain me to spare a few thoughts and a solemn moment every now and then for something like that

[Mike O]

A lot of interesting points made so far on this.

I've always been bemused by the amount of minute's silences we are asked to endure before matches - I'm sure I did one for the club's tea-lady a few years back - and I can only put it down to the demise of the church.

No-one goes to church any more - well not many - and because of that we are seen to be deprived of many things including moments of mass communal reflection.

So in steps football and offers us regular minutes of introspective, soul-searching, respectful and quasi-spritual reverence which we lap up gleefully.

Of all the minutes I've stood silently for, the only ones I remember most pertinently have been for MH, Hillsborough and - strangely enough - Bobby Moore. The rest just seem like cheap excuses for worship (apologies for any other cracking examples I've missed).

Munich should be respected with a minute's silence - respected for the city of Manchester and the whole football community, not just United. Hillsborough the same.

But for the rest of it, give departed players a one minute's applause and leave the rest out of it.

[BlueBeard]

Bluebeard I'm sure you're the same person that when talking about the majority of Chelsea's current fans have said that they have no idea of what Chelsea is really all about (and for the record I'd agree with that), fans can only be a part of a clubs history if they're made to feel a part of it. That means reminding them of important events that have happened, be they good, bad or indifferent.

I don't remember ever posting anything like that, but you may be right - my memory isn't too good. I realise that Chelsea's younger fans won't know as much about the clubs history as older fans do, but the majority of them are interested enough to learn about it, which is great. Of course younger fans will only feel a part of the club if they are made to feel a part of it, and I'm all for that. I'm talking about real fans though, not the prawn sandwich brigade. I think you're mistaking me for someone else.

If Munich had been shoved down our throats like some other incidents have then fair enough, but to claim that as most manu fans weren't even born when the munich disaster happened it should just be forgotten is a stark contradiction to a number of other opinions. If they're weren't your opinions and I getting mistaken for someone else then I apologise!

Where the hell did I say the disaster should be forgotten??? Try reading my last post again. I'm all for people showing their respects if that's what they want to do, I just don't agree with the way it gets turned into a circus.

It's possible that I'm not explaining myself as well as I could, but I can only speak about grief from a personal point of view. I try my best not to think too much about my loved ones on the anniversary of their death, as it's just too painful, even now it's nearly 20 years on. I prefer to remember them as they were when they were alive. Perhaps that's why I find it hard to understand these anniversary circuses, who knows?

As I said before, everybody's got their own way of dealing with things.

[e!!iot]

I don't feel like it's been rammed down my throat at all. I think the thread starter should've thought before he posted.

[loz]

I think the thread starter should've thought before he posted.

Nah that rarely happens around here!!

I think Clubhappy is entirely entitled to feel the way he does - personally I don't agree with him but it is pretty clear he has thought about it!

[Guest mark]

I think we probably have more fuss about minutes silence & things like it precisely because these events are so long ago. The longer ago they become, the less people there are remaining who actually remember the event, so I think it's just a reaction against that to make sure we do actually remember this stuff.

I'm sure I've noticed it in recent years with WWI commemorations, I think it's right that these things are made a bit of a fuss of, lest we forget etc...

In the case of footy, we all accept that the game has become more like big business & we take the good with the bad on that, however we should never forget old players and our proud British footballing history. God help us in the future if there are young'uns who remember no further back than the Premier League.

Though it is difficult to fully empathise with others tragedy & fatigue can set in, but you've got to respect others time to remember. I won't say anything about 'big family of football' or use the words 'beautiful' or 'game', admirable restraint I reckon.

[Valerie]

Forget about minutes silence, what really p*sses me off are those stupid cuddly toys that are laid out.

[clubhappy]

Yes i thought about this whole debate before i started the original post, im not changing my views and i'm entitled to express my opinion on the subject. I still hold the views expressed .

What pisses me off about the whole issue, is , The hype surrounding the name, Manchester United. Would the same attention be given to , say, Hartlepool, or Oxford Utd or any le ss high profile club ? Take Hillsborough, yes a tragic incident, one which i remember watching unfold, horiffic and heartbreaking. Again, it's regarded as a milestone if football history , annaversaries will continue to grab media attention, thats ok, but what about Ibrox disaster in 1971, The Bradford fire in 1985 ? do they not deserve recognition in the media too ?

My gripe is that because its Man Utd, then we should all pay attention and feel sorry for them.Ask any of the modern day Man Utd fans to name the team that perished, see how they get on.

[Barn]

I think it's been a good thread, people have expressed different opinions and apart from me getting Bluebeard all wrong no-one has upset anyone else (yet!). With regards the way the media are playing up the Munich disaster compared with others I agree that the more higher profile clubs will get more media coverage, that's kind of a given though whether right or wrong it's always going to happen. i think it was Loz that said, there are far worse disasaters that get very little media attention. The reason is money! A media will only survive by making money, they therefore have to produce (print, write, speak, etc) the stories that carry the widest interest.