Old Firm in the Premiership

[Guest bigjockknew]

There's talk, again, of Rangers and Celtic joining the English football leagues. What do you guys n girls make of that. I, for what its worth, think:

Neither is good enough for the Premiership, so do they start at the bottom and work their way up the leagues or at the top and freefall to relegation zone.

It would impact on the Champions league as the winner of the SPL league without the Old Firm would qualify for the group stages of the CL and second for a qualifying round- is that a good thing.

Do they make whatever English League bigger or do other clubs get relegated/not promoted

and finally - whats the point

p.s. what about fans chanting pro IRA songs in Bradford, London, Manchester - who's going to clean that up after the game

[loz]

If the old firm teams want to join the English league then theonly way I would think it is acceptable is if they started at the very very bottom and made theitr way up. There isnow way they should get a free ticket into the Premiership or even the championship.

The knock of effect on the CL would be that in no time the SPL would not get two teams in the CL. The winner would go int qualifying and the second place into the new Euorpa League.

It would, however, make the SPL more interesting as it would be more competitive however it would also be even skinter.

[maddoo]

There's talk, again, of Rangers and Celtic joining the English football leagues. What do you guys n girls make of that. I, for what its worth, think:

Neither is good enough for the Premiership, so do they start at the bottom and work their way up the leagues or at the top and freefall to relegation zone.

It would impact on the Champions league as the winner of the SPL league without the Old Firm would qualify for the group stages of the CL and second for a qualifying round- is that a good thing.

Do they make whatever English League bigger or do other clubs get relegated/not promoted

and finally - whats the point

p.s. what about fans chanting pro IRA songs in Bradford, London, Manchester - who's going to clean that up after the game

The same people that had to clear up after the Rangers fans in Manchester

[Ruh Buh Juh]

The SPL is too small a league for them to lose 2 teams. There's only 11 in the top division at the moment anyway. That'd mean having to bring 2 teams up from the first division into the SPL, then 2 teams from the second division into the first division etc etc etc. And it would have an impact on the PL if they came up aswell. Do we have a league of 22? Silly, silly suggestion.

[bjd]

Would be brilliant for the Chelsea/Bears games but other than that i dont see the point. It would kill Scottish football if you ask me. Also it would only be fair if they started at the bottom and worked their way up. From what i see i think they would struggle to get out of The Championship!

Never going to happen anyway.

[Guest bigjockknew]

Thanks guys, all valid points.

I don't think any of the Old Firm fans travel particularly well. Manchester was shameful and reflects so badly on Rangers, having said that I don't see 200,000 pissed up punters jumping on a band wagon every away game.

I think championship is their level. They can raise their game for the odd CL game against Premiership opposition but theres no way they could sustain that every week. It would mean no Scottish teams in Europe (not for the real comps anyway) and it would cost both Old Firm teams revenue from Europe. Can you imagine much travelling going on to and from Glasgow every week either.

I never thought it would happen but the story through the week seemed to have backing on both sides of the border.

From www.football.co.uk - couldn't be arsed doing the link thing.

Crystal Palace chairman Simon Jordan claims the Old Firm should have to pay a £100million dowry to join the English league.Bolton's Phil Gartside will propose the formation of a second tier of the Premier League, including Rangers and Celtic, during a meeting with fellow chairmen on Thursday.Jordan would welcome the Glasgow clubs' introduction - but only if they paid for the privilege.He told the Daily Record: "Football is evolving all the time and this would be great for the Scottish clubs but they should pay to come down."I'd suggest £100million and the immediate financial benefits that arise for both clubs would soon cover it."Their share price would go through the ceiling on the back of massive revenue increases. The SPL does not attract a worldwide audience - the Premiership does."It would be a great thing for Celtic and Rangers but the Old Firm would not add enormously to the levels of interest in a league that's already massively exposed."Jordan added: "I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen but it's still a long way off as no deals can be done until the next round of talks with broadcasters, scheduled for 2013."Gartside's controversial plan for two leagues of 18 is a reflection of the fears many Premier League clubs have over the financial costs of relegation.However, there are a significant number of obstacles to overcome, including the approval of the Football Association, their Scottish counterparts, the Football League and UEFA.UEFA president Michel Platini seems unlikely to sanction any alteration to the status quo and still allow Celtic and Rangers to qualify for Europe.Gartside would also need at least 14 Premier League clubs to accept proposals that would herald a cut in their TV revenue.

[loz]

BJN

They are Championship quality at best with their current squads but lets not kid ourselves. If Rangers and Celtic were in the Premiership it would not take too long before they were in a position wher they could be challenging to be a top four side.

Think about it. They would be getting Premiership TV money, they would be able to attract players who would never consider playing for them before and every other week they would be playing in front of 55,000 (Rangers) and 65,000 (Celtic) fans (approximately).

Give them that level of financial support, that level of attractiveness to potential signings and that kind of fervour from fans and they would soon overtake the likes of Everton and Villa and be looking to challenge the top four.

I don't mean they would do it immediately and I do think having to travel down South every other week (and sometimes stay away all week if there is a midweek game) would have a detrimental impact but both clubs have the potential to be enormous if put in the right league.

[mad_mac]

Spot on Loz,

after a while there would be quite a bit of revenue being thrown their way and they could well be up there in several years time, but the process may be too long and arduos for some.

Anyway, I doubt this will ever happen as it's called the English Premier League, not england plus the old firm. I too feel they would have to work their way up, but then the question is.....where do you start them? I am sure neither Rangers nor Celtic would want to be battling it out in League 2 as they probably feel "too good for that" but at the same time, what have they done to deserve anything else?

Then you get into TV Revenues; will Rangers and Celtic take huge hits from TV revenue if they are down in the lower leagues, or will more people actually tune into those matches because of the likes of Rangers and Celtic playing down there?

The main thing that concerns me, is that this would be the death of the SPL. THe old firm games, and any match that either team play in, are the main attractions of the league. To take them out of the equation....well, I think the numbers for a Rangers Celtic match would far outshine that of, hypothetically, a Hamilton Accies - Cally Thistle game.

I say keep them where they are! It is an historic rivalry, and to take it into England would just be bonkers in my opinion!

[blueday3]

What if they included Scotland in the FA or League cup or something.

[dkw]

as loz said, it would be very unfair to allow them to start in the prem but within 3 or 4 years of the kind of money the EPL teams get the two scottish giants would be up there. just one thing, how is it any different to wrexham, swansea and cardiff playing in the english leagues?

[midlandblue]

dont want it and dont agree with it.

as for the point made about them challenging for a top 4 spot once the revenue has built up, I also disagree, hasn't worked for Spurs, Newcastle and as yet Man City

[BlueBeard]

as loz said, it would be very unfair to allow them to start in the prem but within 3 or 4 years of the kind of money the EPL teams get the two scottish giants would be up there. just one thing, how is it any different to wrexham, swansea and cardiff playing in the english leagues?

or, indeed, Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford playing in the Welsh Cup - or Berwick playing in the Scots League?

I love Rangers to bits, but I'd hate the Old Firm to come into the English League. It would kill Scottish football, a lot of the "lower" clubs in Scotland rely on the revenue from their games against Rangers & Septic.

[dpCFCRFC]

or, indeed, Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford playing in the Welsh Cup - or Berwick playing in the Scots League?

I love Rangers to bits, but I'd hate the Old Firm to come into the English League. It would kill Scottish football, a lot of the "lower" clubs in Scotland rely on the revenue from their games against Rangers & Septic.

i completely agree wif you m8, if it happened the spl would be no more

[moi]

i completely agree wif you m8, if it happened the spl would be no more

The M8 goes from Glasgow to Edinburgh

[Guest bigjockknew]

What if the non travelling Old Firm support went to lower league club matches in Scotland - probably won't but you never know. Theres also talk of Rangers and Celtic getting to field reserve teams in the lower leagues in Scotland - what if they eventually made it to the SPL - not inconceivable given the stadard of the rest - is there a plan for there to be a home match every week ? I've really no idea but over to you.............

[yorkleyblue]

Don't care how it would affect the SPL - that's only a pub league standard anyway - If Rangers and Celtic wanna play with the big boys (and why would they? they'd get hammered) let them try to move through the leagues like every other team has to.

Some of you have been saying that they are Championship standard - that is really the SECOND DIVISION. I think they ain't that good and would truly fit in with the third division standard teams.

Those of you who said that they would be a force to contend with once they got the Premiership money have failed to realise that they are NOT good enough to reach the premiership, so wouldn't have that money.!

kev

[TheWestwayWonder]

Count me in with those who dont want to see this happen. I am not Scottish or English, but to me the idea of the Old Firm hobknobing with top English clubs simply because they are "big" is insulting to both English and Scottish football. Its obvious they are the two best sides in their country, but I dont think leaving their current league is the answer.

I might get slammed for saying this, but i've always wondered why there wasnt a knockout cup competition for club teams in the British Isles. Might be an issue of which FA would regulate it, but I think it would be great to actually see how these leagues measure up. And have some interesting ties between English, Scottish, and Irish sides. Obviously I have none of the details figured out. But it still might sate this desire alot of people have to see the Old Firm against top English sides

[sexelk]

Don't care how it would affect the SPL - that's only a pub league standard anyway - If Rangers and Celtic wanna play with the big boys (and why would they? they'd get hammered) let them try to move through the leagues like every other team has to.

Some of you have been saying that they are Championship standard - that is really the SECOND DIVISION. I think they ain't that good and would truly fit in with the third division standard teams.

Those of you who said that they would be a force to contend with once they got the Premiership money have failed to realise that they are NOT good enough to reach the premiership, so wouldn't have that money.!

kev

don't talk sh*t

u sound utterly ridiculous. not 1 english team in the uefa cup this year has come close to getting to the final. rangers did last season, beating teams like sporting and fiorentina on the way. both old firm teams have reached the second round of the champs league in recent seasons as well.

if I had to place them it would be around mid table. and like others have said it wouldn't take long for them to attract higher quality players. who wouldn't want to play for the most successful domestic side in world football with 51 league titles to their name?

Edited April 23, 2009 by sexelk

[mad_mac]

Sorry Kev but I do think you are drastically underestimating Celtic and Ranger's as teams. Rangers made the UEFA final last year, as stated.

Celtic a few years back beat Liverpool then went on to lose to a Porto team who then went on to win the CL the ver next season. Oh, and Liverpool did it a couple of years later too.

There is a huge disparity between Celtic, Rangers and then the rest of the SPL. but to lump them all in as "pub teams" is ridiculous

Scott

[clubhappy]

p.s. what about fans chanting pro IRA songs in Bradford, London, Manchester - who's going to clean that up after the game

As if there the only ones up there who chant secterian songs .

Im not well up on Scottish football but on what grounds would they be qualified to enter the Premiership ?

[loz]

At the moment there are no grounsd clubber. It would require special permission and a vote of at least 14 out of 20 by the current Premiership chairmen. The idea being discussed isn't just about bringing Rangers and Celtic into he Premiership, it also involved splitting the Premiership into two leagues of 18 rather than a single league of 20.

[yorkleyblue]

don't talk sh*t

u sound utterly ridiculous. not 1 english team in the uefa cup this year has come close to getting to the final. rangers did last season, beating teams like sporting and fiorentina on the way. both old firm teams have reached the second round of the champs league in recent seasons as well.

if I had to place them it would be around mid table. and like others have said it wouldn't take long for them to attract higher quality players. who wouldn't want to play for the most successful domestic side in world football with 51 league titles to their name?

Can't be arsed - you talk bollox about Ballack, you talk bollox about music and you talk bollox about most things - your opinion on very nearly anything is irrelevant to everyone but you.

Sorry Kev but I do think you are drastically underestimating Celtic and Ranger's as teams. Rangers made the UEFA final last year, as stated.

Celtic a few years back beat Liverpool then went on to lose to a Porto team who then went on to win the CL the ver next season. Oh, and Liverpool did it a couple of years later too.

There is a huge disparity between Celtic, Rangers and then the rest of the SPL. but to lump them all in as "pub teams" is ridiculous

Scott

OK Scott, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that they raise their games on occasion in the European arena, but don't and can't sustain that week in and week out. I accept that maybe "pub teams" was a tad harsh for the two of them, but they do play in something that is not hugely better than a Sunday league, so it's not unreasonable to expect them to dominate.

Any road up, I stand by what I originally said - If they want to join the English leagues they should start at the bottom and gain promotion to their level of competence, year on year

Kev

[sexelk]

Can't be arsed - you talk bollox about Ballack, you talk bollox about music and you talk bollox about most things - your opinion on very nearly anything is irrelevant to everyone but you.

have you a tickle in your throat? you are so far up your own arse, your grey hair must be irritating as hell

anything opinions expressed before are completely irrelevant to here and now in this thread. to be honest it is a pathetic and unintelligent way to argue a point

and yet again your petty insults have taken a thread off course

i don't particularly disagree about the teams having to work their way up but your summation of two talented teams is clearly ignorant and way off the mark. but as usual it was stated with such authority and your trademark signature at the bottom to suggest that what preceded it was the be all and end all, that you open it up to someone getting annoyed because they are reading such bullsh*t

to be frank, your point was garbage and nonsensical. end of

Edited April 24, 2009 by sexelk

[BLUENUT]

They've got their own leagues, f*ck em. While were at it, lets throw Cardiff and Wrexham back into the Welsh leagues.

If their own leagues aren't competetive enough, it's the fault of their own FA's. Not ours.

What happens in a few years if Manu and Chelsea continue their dominance as the top 2 in this country, do we want to go a join a Spanish or Italian league? I know this is a different arguement because of logistics but the arguement remains the same.

Each country's own FA should be responsible for the state of football in their country, from grass root upwards.

If there's not enough money for the big fish to carry on feeding, they can't jump into next door's pond. The Scottish FA need to look into the underlying reason why their league is so uncompetetive, because without their big 2, football in Scotland will go the same way as it did in Wales.

Money talks - and, sadly, thats what its all about, not really what is best for the sport.

[loz]

IN my opinion the current squads of Rangers and Celtic would struggle to stay in the Premiership and probably are Championship sides. They both have a few players who would make the grade in the Premiership but even then it is players who would make the grade for clubs like Boro, Sunderland or Newcastle. Those players are then surrounded by a number of players who really are Championship level.

Yes Rangers did well to get to the UEFA Cup final and yes Celtic have done well in the CL in recent years however I do think a lot of it is due to raising their game for the big match - what those players would struggle to do is maintain a high level consistently over a long season.

For example if we look at the Rangers team that played last week against Hibs

Rangers: Alexander, Whittaker, Weir, Bougherra, Papac (Dailly 77), Davis, Edu, Mendes, Steven Smith, Boyd (Novo 88), Velicka (Miller 70). Subs Not Used: Graeme Smith, Niguez, Fleck, Little.

Of that list I would say that only Davis and Mendez would hold their own in a lower Premiership side. Bougherra might but I suspect he woudl struggle. Fleck is a prospect so hard to judge him. The rest, for me, are Championship quality with a few possibly lower.

However put them into the Premiership (and I reiterate that they shouldn't be) and they would be able to buy players who could keep them in the Premiership.