2 hours ago, PythonLu said:

You can restrict the term world-class to the best five players, our man Hazard would still be world class.

Nah not in the 5 best players in the world.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

The frustrating thing about this is ten years ago and/or if Messi and Ronaldo never showed up, there wouldn't be any debate. I mean one of the main critique's is he doesn't score enough yet he scores a damn sight more than Robben did (for Chelsea) and the Dutchman was never accused of not doing enough and was basically salivated over (rightfully may i add, if people back then accused him of not doing enough i'd be almost as incandescent as i am now). Infact, another left winger Ryan Giggs, one of the best players in PL history, his goal record? 168 in 963. In 24 season's he hit double figures 5 times, Hazard has already done that 7 season's out of 9.

If Hazard was about 12 years ago he would have been right up Ronaldinho's arse in terms of the best player, infact those famous Chelsea vs Barca games would have been marketed as Hazard vs Ronaldinho.

I'm not sure I agree with that even taking out Messi and Ronaldo I don't think he's at the level Ronaldinho or Henry was in those years. 

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I agree with Suarez as i believe he's top 3 in the world and to an extent Bale, however i don't agree with peoples opinions on Neymar. He's been beyond average this entire season and went about three months without scoring a goal from open play in la liga, which is shocking when you're surrounded by the players he is. 

You can't say that after the season Hazard had last year, there's shocking and then that season made shocking look good.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

The frustrating thing about this is ten years ago and/or if Messi and Ronaldo never showed up, there wouldn't be any debate. I mean one of the main critique's is he doesn't score enough yet he scores a damn sight more than Robben did (for Chelsea) and the Dutchman was never accused of not doing enough and was basically salivated over (rightfully may i add, if people back then accused him of not doing enough i'd be almost as incandescent as i am now). Infact, another left winger Ryan Giggs, one of the best players in PL history, his goal record? 168 in 963. In 24 season's he hit double figures 5 times, Hazard has already done that 7 season's out of 9.

If Hazard was about 12 years ago he would have been right up Ronaldinho's arse in terms of the best player, infact those famous Chelsea vs Barca games would have been marketed as Hazard vs Ronaldinho.

Hazard never on the same level as Ronaldinho.

Already know what will happen. Hazard will have a great game against Swansea and your get some people gloating and saying how can you say he isn't world class. Bla bla bla and the usual. 

The same people who go off on one when you say Hazard isn't world class like it's a crime and your calling him s***.

Im expecting at least 3-0 and a great performance.

2 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

Can't believe this is even a debate.

He's the best player in the premier league and clearly one of the best players in the world.

Because it clearly is a debate, the lad is a fantastic footballer but he goes missing far too often. Consistent players don't have the spells of going missing that he does.

People saying that he makes space etc as a reaction to people saying he didn't have a good game reminds me of the fans who stuck by Torres for so long. It was always someone else's fault.

I and others are not denying he is a fantastic player but he lacks the consistency to be labelled world class IMO.

2 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Already know what will happen. Hazard will have a great game against Swansea and your get some people gloating and saying how can you say he isn't world class. Bla bla bla and the usual. 

The same people who go off on one when you say Hazard isn't world class like it's a crime and your calling him s***.

Im expecting at least 3-0 and a great performance.

And there is the issue.

If he has a great game then rightly praise him. But if he performs bad people have the right to criticise him too.

13 minutes ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

Because it clearly is a debate, the lad is a fantastic footballer but he goes missing far too often. Consistent players don't have the spells of going missing that he does.

People saying that he makes space etc as a reaction to people saying he didn't have a good game reminds me of the fans who stuck by Torres for so long. It was always someone else's fault.

I and others are not denying he is a fantastic player but he lacks the consistency to be labelled world class IMO.

What world class players are more consistent than him?  You can only use premier league players as an example.

Even when he is off the pace in a game, which can happen to anyone, his poor games are still better than the majority of the league.  He still beats players (albeit, not 20 times).  He's not a superhuman, but he is world class and above.

28 minutes ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

I'm not sure I agree with that even taking out Messi and Ronaldo I don't think he's at the level Ronaldinho or Henry was in those years. 

Both of whom would have also likely been criminal underrated if they were in their prime in the modern day because they weren't shooting 30 times a game to score like Ronaldo.

 

25 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Hazard never on the same level as Ronaldinho.

Regardless, same point is If Dinho was in his prime for Chelsea now he would he getting criticised I guarantee it.

11 minutes ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

And there is the issue.

If he has a great game then rightly praise him. But if he performs bad people have the right to criticise him too.

I agree, I will always say when a player is having a bad game, number of games or even season. Last season was shocking for all involved, like most things the manager gets the blame like at Arsenal, Leicester etc. 

Chelsea will win the league and when they do next season is already a big season for all the players and Conte. People won't let them forget what happened last year. Hazard really went of form and an excuse is the whole team did which is true but then don't the team win and lose together.

The way Hazard played against Hull I have seen that quite a few times this season. It looks like someone not interested and shows it in his performance. It even looks like the attitude of someone who is leaving the club. Drogba did play like that every game though.

37 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

What world class players are more consistent than him?  You can only use premier league players as an example.
 

That restricts things when you consider the Premier League has never been weaker in terms of the quality of players spread amongst the top teams. So it won't really prove anything; we don't have any true world class players here, we have players just under that bracket, and out of those, here are some more consistent (this season only) than Hazard - Kante, Luiz, Sanchez, Mata, Ibrahimovic, and Fabregas when he gets on the pitch too. (Consider too, these players have been better despite 2 or even 3 of them already being past their peak.) Outside of the PL in the same bracket of just under WC, but outperforming Hazard, we have the likes of Griezmann, Neymar, Dybala. Bale is also far superior based on just this season, even with less games. He's had huge direct impact consistently, and not consistently faded in and out.

But I don't know what this point proves. However, that's a bunch of players who play to at least the same standard that Hazard has this season, yet are far less on-off-on-on-on-off-off-on-off-on-off-on with their form. So yeah, that's *not* including the world class players of the world, which Hazard is certainly not a part of (Messi, Suarez, Kroos, Thiago, Lewandowski, Robben.)

We LOVE the guy - but he isn't world class. He is not the player we all thought he had the potential to be, at all. It's like he's fulfilled 65% of that potential we imagined, and yet that may be him at his best. World class? No. The most exciting player we've possibly ever had? Sure.

Edited February 21, 20179 yr by Katyusha

15 minutes ago, Katyusha said:

That restricts things when you consider the Premier League has never been weaker in terms of the quality of players spread amongst the top teams. So it won't really prove anything; we don't have any true world class players here, we have players just under that bracket, and out of those, here are some more consistent (this season only) than Hazard - Kante, Luiz, Sanchez, Mata, Ibrahimovic, and Fabregas when he gets on the pitch too. (Consider too, these players have been better despite 2 or even 3 of them already being past their peak.) Outside of the PL in the same bracket of just under WC, but outperforming Hazard, we have the likes of Griezmann, Neymar, Dybala. Bale is also far superior based on just this season, even with less games. He's had huge direct impact consistently, and not consistently faded in and out.

But I don't know what this point proves. However, that's a bunch of players who play to at least the same standard that Hazard has this season, yet are far less on-off-on-on-on-off-off-on-off-on-off-on with their form. So yeah, that's *not* including the world class players of the world, which Hazard is certainly not a part of (Messi, Suarez, Kroos, Thiago, Lewandowski, Robben.)

We LOVE the guy - but he isn't world class. He is not the player we all thought he had the potential to be, at all. It's like he's fulfilled 65% of that potential we imagined, and yet that may be him at his best. World class? No. The most exciting player we've possibly ever had? Sure.

Dybala has a lot of games were he is not playing great. But hey he doesn't play for Chelsea so grass is greener and hes world class every game.

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

You can't say that after the season Hazard had last year, there's shocking and then that season made shocking look good.

So just to clarify Neymar was better than Hazard for one season when Hazard was beyond shocking. Point still stands that Hazard has been better every other season and is far far far superior this season. Hazard went missing in a team that was underperforming as a whole, Neymar has gone missing with the rest of an incredible team still performing. He has no excuse to go that long without a goal with the supply he gets. 

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

So just to clarify Neymar was better than Hazard for one season when Hazard was beyond shocking. Point still stands that Hazard has been better every other season and is far far far superior this season. Hazard went missing in a team that was underperforming as a whole, Neymar has gone missing with the rest of an incredible team still performing. He has no excuse to go that long without a goal with the supply he gets. 

Barcelona are underperforming this year. Real has the title to take. Thumped 4-0 in the champions league and the manager will be getting sacked. Barca are not having a great year. 

How can you compare seasons when they play in completely different leagues. Neymar has been quality since he arrived at Barca. Someone made the excuse for Hazard because he has a hard life living on 200k a week. I'll make a really good excuse that standing trial on corruption charges would affect anyone.

Edited February 21, 20179 yr by Ernie_blue

6 minutes ago, Argo said:

Dybala has a lot of games were he is not playing great. But hey he doesn't play for Chelsea so grass is greener and hes world class every game.

So do Griezmann and Neymar. Why do people even bother to talk about the likes of Dybala when they talk about consistency? Honestly, how often have any of you watched him, or many of the other names bandied about, play? 

Just now, ashwin said:

So do Griezmann and Neymar. Why do people even bother to talk about the likes of Dybala when they talk about consistency? Honestly, how often have any of you watched him, or many of the other names bandied about, play? 

Ive said it before, if Hazard was playing for Atletico, Dortmund or Juve there would be a 100 page spread in the rumour section begging for his signing.

1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Barcelona are underperforming this year. Real has the title to take. Thumped 4-0 in the champions league and the manager will be getting sacked. Barca are not having a great year. 

being 2nd in La Liga having lost two games in the league all season compared to a team that finished 10th, was at one point in a relegation battle and lost as many games as they won in a single season. Yeah i think Hazard was in a slightly worse off team tbh.

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Barcelona are underperforming this year. Real has the title to take. Thumped 4-0 in the champions league and the manager will be getting sacked. Barca are not having a great year. 

But that is no excuse for Hazard no? Neymar well he's doing bad because the team is doing bad but Hazard he's doing bad is independent of the team's fortunes. Doesn't make any sense, does it?

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

My biggest problem with stats is the way people manipulate them. I think you learn a lot more about players just by watching a football match. For example on here I could say Kante was brilliant and Matic wasn't. Then someone will come back at me and say how do you work that one out when a stat website says Matic has 90% pass rate and Kante had 80%.

This is the start of a very big problem with stats. First of all just because someone has a higher success rate of passing doesn't mean they played better. Then you need to work out was the passes short or long, sideways and forwards. Was the player in question caught in a position where it was difficult to find a pass? Did one player miss place a pass in the opponents area or did the other lose the ball outside his own area giving the opposition chances. From those simple stats that people like to use as facts and have to be right to prove a point there are so many questions that you can simply have a better judgement from what a football match.

Fair enough but you still haven't responded to my specific points. See the last sentence of my post.

What is your definition of world class?

What are your anwers to my points 1 and 2 in the previous post?

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

being 2nd in La Liga having lost two games in the league all season compared to a team that finished 10th, was at one point in a relegation battle and lost as many games as they won in a single season. Yeah i think Hazard was in a slightly worse off team tbh.

Take it you don't watch La Liga then. You know like anyone Barca and Real will generally finish top two. Real have two games in hand. Barca have been very poor this season and that's why the manager will most likely get sacked. There's unrest in the dressing room, players like Iniesta and Rakatic have not been the same or injured. Busquests has been injured. Barca will generally win most games because of the difference in quality but when they come up against a good time like PSG they looked lost, you need tactics too.

Actually I'm not even sure what your going on about. I'm just saying Barca are not having a great season which if you look further than just the table it's clear to know.

33 minutes ago, Katyusha said:

That restricts things when you consider the Premier League has never been weaker in terms of the quality of players spread amongst the top teams. So it won't really prove anything; we don't have any true world class players here, we have players just under that bracket, and out of those, here are some more consistent (this season only) than Hazard - Kante, Luiz, Sanchez, Mata, Ibrahimovic, and Fabregas when he gets on the pitch too. (Consider too, these players have been better despite 2 or even 3 of them already being past their peak.) Outside of the PL in the same bracket of just under WC, but outperforming Hazard, we have the likes of Griezmann, Neymar, Dybala. Bale is also far superior based on just this season, even with less games. He's had huge direct impact consistently, and not consistently faded in and out.

But I don't know what this point proves. However, that's a bunch of players who play to at least the same standard that Hazard has this season, yet are far less on-off-on-on-on-off-off-on-off-on-off-on with their form. So yeah, that's *not* including the world class players of the world, which Hazard is certainly not a part of (Messi, Suarez, Kroos, Thiago, Lewandowski, Robben.)

We LOVE the guy - but he isn't world class. He is not the player we all thought he had the potential to be, at all. It's like he's fulfilled 65% of that potential we imagined, and yet that may be him at his best. World class? No. The most exciting player we've possibly ever had? Sure.

Hazard has a higher goals per 90 ratio in their respective leagues than all the above mentioned players except for Bale and Hazard is the only player out of those that i wouldn't particularly class as an out and out goalscorer lol. Not to mention the fact that he takes less shots per 90 than all of them.

 

Would hardly say they're all out performing him...

6 minutes ago, ashwin said:

But that is no excuse for Hazard no? Neymar well he's doing bad because the team is doing bad but Hazard he's doing bad is independent of the team's fortunes. Doesn't make any sense, does it?

No it doesn't but I'm not saying that. People argued Hazard had an off year because he has a hard life, I was just pointing out being on trial is 100% true and as it is true will have an impact on your life.

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

Ive said it before, if Hazard was playing for Atletico, Dortmund or Juve there would be a 100 page spread in the rumour section begging for his signing.

Of course, what difference does that make to him being world class or not? There's plenty of players better than Willian in world football.

This whole topic has turned into a disease

Eden Hazard is the best Winger in the PL. 

Eden Hazard IMO is a Top 3 Winger in the world but in everyone's has to be a Top 5.

The guy has technique and balance you just can't teach, he is a natural talent.

A criticism? probably needs to add more goals to his game, which he seems to be doing this season.

In relation to inconsistency? It's a long season, add it up the guy'll have had more better performances, won us more points, than 'bad' ones. I use the term 'bad' cos I'd still rather have that Hazard on the pitch than what the alternatives are.

Comparing how he was last season seems pointless when it looked like Jose was trying to play him at CB with all the defending he was asked to do. Real don't ask CR7 to defend so we shouldn't have Hazard.

Lay off the lad and let him just play.

Jesus, he's a Chelsea player, SUPPORT him.

1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Take it you don't watch La Liga then. You know like anyone Barca and Real will generally finish top two. Real have two games in hand. Barca have been very poor this season and that's why the manager will most likely get sacked. There's unrest in the dressing room, players like Iniesta and Rakatic have not been the same or injured. Busquests has been injured. Barca will generally win most games because of the difference in quality but when they come up against a good time like PSG they looked lost, you need tactics too.

Actually I'm not even sure what your going on about. I'm just saying Barca are not having a great season which if you look further than just the table it's clear to know.

The point is about Neymar. As you've pointed out they play easy teams and are expected to win all the games in their league, hence why it is unacceptable for Neymar to go almost 4 months without a league goal from open play yet people still argue he is world class and ahead of Hazard.