27 minutes ago, Argo said:

Dybala has a lot of games were he is not playing great. But hey he doesn't play for Chelsea so grass is greener and hes world class every game.

I didn't write 3 paragraphs about Dybala, so to highlight that opinion of yours as-if that's anything to do with the point i'm making, or what anyone else is talking about, is silly as hell. However, the difference is Dybala does more than he was expected to - Hazard does less. If you want an individual conversation about Dybala vs. Hazard we can have one, but don't reduce my post and invalidate it by homing in on that.

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Of course, what difference does that make to him being world class or not? There's plenty of players better than Willian in world football.

There is but I doubt many get excited over potential signings due to being better than a player we have.

If that was the case we would have been salivating at the prospect of many league one strikers while Torres was leading the line.

On 15/02/2017 at 13:59, coco said:

@smallisbeautiful 

 

 

 

I wish we could edit these videos so that you cannot see Hazard in them, just the ball and the other players. Try it, watch the videos and concentrate on the players trying to tackle him, it's amazing, players left running in the wrong direction, or left on their bums and looking a complete numpty, its bloody comical, better than slapstick.

15 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Hazard has a higher goals per 90 ratio in their respective leagues than all the above mentioned players except for Bale and Hazard is the only player out of those that i wouldn't particularly class as an out and out goalscorer lol. Not to mention the fact that he takes less shots per 90 than all of them.

 

Would hardly say they're all out performing him...

Mitroglou, Aspas & Modeste have higher goals per 90 ratio in their respective leagues than Costa. Not to mention the fact they all recieve the ball less than he does...  

would hardly call Costa great when stats like those are out there...

Stats are probably the worst thing you could've brought up. Stats can convince people that the sky is green and that the moon landing didn't happen.

The discussion was; who, this season, is outperforming Hazard/at the same level; all of the players I listed are. So let's talk about that, not who's technically on paper according to the stats on WhoScored the better player.

If we want to reduce this to a discussion of wingers only, let's start with how Ribery, Robben and Douglas Costa have all been better than Hazard, despite being 3 wingers competing for 2 spots. None of them are 'goal getters', so it's fair.

Edited February 21, 20179 yr by Katyusha

9 minutes ago, ashwin said:

Fair enough but you still haven't responded to my specific points. See the last sentence of my post.

What is your definition of world class?

What are your anwers to my points 1 and 2 in the previous post?

Picking 18 of the best players, first team plus subs, does said player need to be included? That to me is a world class player. You have every position covered and then some to include players who are great but have a lot of competition. 

 

For me Hazard does not. He's supremely talented and skilled but is he ahead of Messi, Ronaldo, Bale or Robben? I'd put him up there with Neymar and Sanchez, great players but not at the tip top 

3 minutes ago, Katyusha said:

I didn't write 3 paragraphs about Dybala, so to highlight that opinion of yours as-if that's anything to do with the point i'm making, or what anyone else is talking about, is silly as hell. However, the difference is Dybala does more than he was expected to - Hazard does less. If you want an individual conversation about Dybala vs. Hazard we can have one, but don't reduce my post and invalidate it by homing in on that.

This makes no sense? Dybala is usually played as the striker or just off the striker depending on the tactics. Therefore he expected to score and create goals i would assume..? He's scored less goals and created less chances per 90 in the league this season than Hazard, all whilst taking more shots. I would argue Hazard is expected to score less than Dybala yet isn't doing so. 

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The point is about Neymar. As you've pointed out they play easy teams and are expected to win all the games in their league, hence why it is unacceptable for Neymar to go almost 4 months without a league goal from open play yet people still argue he is world class and ahead of Hazard. 

I think he is, but how do we know how he is playing in every single game? It was clear last season Hazard was dreadful in nearly every single game because as supporters we watch all the games. This season I have found him to be just as good as bad.

1 minute ago, Katyusha said:

I didn't write 3 paragraphs about Dybala, so to highlight that opinion of yours as-if that's anything to do with the point i'm making, or what anyone else is talking about, is silly as hell. However, the difference is Dybala does more than he was expected to - Hazard does less. If you want an individual conversation about Dybala vs. Hazard we can have one, but don't reduce my post and invalidate it by homing in on that.

Hazard doesn't do as much as expected if you are expecting his Arsenal performance most weeks.

I broke down his displays into percentages a few weeks back.

10% of the time he does perform bad, like vs Wolves.

40% he is quiet on the face of it, but still has produced numerous key dribbles and actions which has led to serious quality openings, like at Anfield.

40% he has a world class performance, like his home debut against Reading in 2012.

7% of the time he hits that level above world class, like against WHU under Rafa and Spurs last season.

3% he is touched god, and for me thats a level only Messi can reach out of current players.

Let's not mention just Dybala then, what about all the players you named? If I downloaded 20 full games at random of any of them players I bet in atleast ten they will either be below par or have one of the "quiet on the face of it" games.

3 minutes ago, Katyusha said:

Mitroglou, Aspas & Modeste have higher goals per 90 ratio in their respective leagues than Costa. Not to mention the fact they all recieve the ball less than he does...  

would hardly call Costa great when stats like those are out there...

Stats are probably the worst thing you could've brought up. Stats can convince people that the sky is green and that the moon landing didn't happen.

The discussion was; who, this season, is outperforming Hazard; all of the players I listed are. So let's talk about that, not who's technically on paper according to the stats on WhoScored better.

Stats do matter though. People always use the argument of 'stats are misleading' if they aren't in favour of someones argument. We could argue all day about who you think, in your own opinion, has played better. Important stats such as goals scored, chances created etc. help back the point up. 

8 minutes ago, Argo said:

There is but I doubt many get excited over potential signings due to being better than a player we have.

If that was the case we would have been salivating at the prospect of many league one strikers while Torres was leading the line.

Before Torres joined he was one of Europes leading forwards. If Hazard wasn't at Chelsea there would be plenty of attacking players I would want to sign for Chelsea including Hazard. Doubt how many realistically they could get.

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Before Torres joined he was one of Europes leading forwards. If Hazard wasn't at Chelsea there would be plenty of attacking players I would want to sign for Chelsea including Hazard. Doubt how many realistically they could get.

Yeah but at Chelsea he was so bad even Beckford would have been upgrade, doesn't mean I would have wanted him.

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yeah but at Chelsea he was so bad even Beckford would have been upgrade, doesn't mean I would have wanted him.

I fell to the point of begging we sign Crouch since we were playing that hoof-the-ball game constantly. I remember plenty of people calling for us to just use one of our youth strikers, I think it was the now-terrible Feruz.

1 hour ago, Van Butsen said:

What world class players are more consistent than him?  You can only use premier league players as an example.

Even when he is off the pace in a game, which can happen to anyone, his poor games are still better than the majority of the league.  He still beats players (albeit, not 20 times).  He's not a superhuman, but he is world class and above.

Well until his recent dry spell Costa was, Kante has been. Sanchez has been, etc etc.

I think you're missing my point though I'm not disputing that he is a fantastic player nor am I disputing that he has world class moments. I'm talking about his level of consistency, sure he's not superhuman and isn't gonna score every game but the guy is having a great game and then he has 2 or 3 bad ones. Hull, Liverpool, Spurs, Wolves these were all poor performances. 

16 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yeah but at Chelsea he was so bad even Beckford would have been upgrade, doesn't mean I would have wanted him.

It was painful watching him. It was good to him do well back Madrid, not superb but good enough. Still have a little soft spot for him to do well because that must of been such a hard spell he went through at Chelsea.

32 minutes ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

Well until his recent dry spell Costa was, Kante has been. Sanchez has been, etc etc.

I think you're missing my point though I'm not disputing that he is a fantastic player nor am I disputing that he has world class moments. I'm talking about his level of consistency, sure he's not superhuman and isn't gonna score every game but the guy is having a great game and then he has 2 or 3 bad ones. Hull, Liverpool, Spurs, Wolves these were all poor performances. 

But you're using his consistency as a reason for him not being world class.  I agree he has bad games, but so does every single player ever in history.  The Messi's, the Dinho's, the Henry's included.  And like I said, even when he has a poor game, he is still better than almost every single other player in his position certainly in this league, which to me more than constitutes his status of world class.

Is he not the best player in the best league?

Also lot of Kante goggle this season, last few games hes been superb but before than he went a long consistent run of being good.  Not great, not poor, just good.. and it still wasn't on Hazards level.

Edited February 21, 20179 yr by Van Butsen

Even with highlights packages being exactly that, highlights packages, his is still better than everyone else's. 

17 hours ago, STATS said:

Your point was that he does not turn up in games against small teams. I have given a list of 'small teams' who he has torn apart. That is several games where he has been our best player. So just pointing out that the statement you made is inaccurate and there is no player who is good against every small team.

No it clearly wasn't! I said I don't want him become like Drogba and only turn up in big games and not be consistent against the small teams like Drogba. 

21 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

No it clearly wasn't! I said I don't want him become like Drogba and only turn up in big games and not be consistent against the small teams like Drogba. 

Fair enough. Well I don't think that is a risk of happening. Like I said, majority of games against small teams, he is excellent. If he is not excellent then he usually has an influence in our wins then he has the odd couple games where he is below-par. On a whole, consistent I would say.

24 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

No it clearly wasn't! I said I don't want him become like Drogba and only turn up in big games and not be consistent against the small teams like Drogba. 

I don't want Hazard to become like our greatest ever player

9 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

I don't want Hazard to become like our greatest ever player

Just goes to prove that World class players mainly peak and trough through their career, Messi and Ronaldo being the exception, they come under 'all time' World class, think of it as a top XI of all time, both would get in, they are the elite players in history.

Below those elite few we have World class players who could make it into a World XI in their playing era.

Lets be honest, Hazard would make it into most peoples World XI at the moment. 

 

34 minutes ago, coco said:

Just goes to prove that World class players mainly peak and trough through their career, Messi and Ronaldo being the exception, they come under 'all time' World class, think of it as a top XI of all time, both would get in, they are the elite players in history.

Below those elite few we have World class players who could make it into a World XI in their playing era.

Lets be honest, Hazard would make it into most peoples World XI at the moment. 

 

On a Chelsea forum but I really don't think he would. I could see him being in not many people's world X1 but who knows. 

Of the top of my head I could think of quite a few others would pick if they asked to pick there 11.

3 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

But you're using his consistency as a reason for him not being world class.  I agree he has bad games, but so does every single player ever in history.  The Messi's, the Dinho's, the Henry's included.  And like I said, even when he has a poor game, he is still better than almost every single other player in his position certainly in this league, which to me more than constitutes his status of world class.

Is he not the best player in the best league?

Also lot of Kante goggle this season, last few games hes been superb but before than he went a long consistent run of being good.  Not great, not poor, just good.. and it still wasn't on Hazards level.

Every single season, we expect 5+ 'bad' games from Hazard. Not every single season, has anyone ever expected that, from Messi, Suarez, Aguero, Terry, Scholes, Thiago Silva, Pirlo, Iniesta, Kalou, truly world class players. You are not world class if you're not consistently the best or there about. If inconsistent players with loads of talent could be considered world class then Di Maria, Pogba, Cavani and Reus would be labeled 'world class', which simply isn't true. They're great players, some of the greatest, as is Hazard - but not in that upper echelon. He can still become world class though; he doesn't need to raise his output to become-so, only increase his consistency, which may just happen in the next few years.

1 hour ago, Van Butsen said:

I don't want Hazard to become like our greatest ever player

Lampard is our greatest ever player because he was very consistent against big and small teams. I don't want Hazard to be like Drogba because he is a much more talented footballer then Drogba was, Hazard shouldn't sell himself short.

Edited February 21, 20179 yr by pacquiao

12 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

Lampard is our greatest ever player because he was very consistent against big and small teams. I don't want Hazard to be like Drogba because he is a much more talented footballer then Drogba was, Hazard shouldn't sell himself short.

But even Sir Frank had off games, we just don't remember them now.

not sure if homie is playing or not