Missing out on champions league would be a finicial crisis maybe not a footballing one but the club is trying to grow so getting champions league is crucial. I suppose we could go and win it again lol

Chippy I can't help but admire your consistency in backing the manager and always maintaining that he deserves more time. I can't think of a single time (with one portly exception) when this question has come up in which you haven't defiantly stood by our man, quite often in opposition to the popular view of the fans.

 

To be perfectly honest I am horribly torn on this. Clearly José is the best manager we've ever had, and possibly the best I've ever seen, and it's still so soon after we won the league, but so far this season he has seemingly done nothing right; we have been total sh*te week after week with no resemblance to the side which pissed the title last season, we're languishing in the bottom quarter of the table, he's [allegedly I suppose] pissed off the players, he's pissed off the staff, he's getting in trouble with the footballing authorities almost every week, lashing out at anyone he can get away with in the press and making himself, and by extension the club, look like idiots.

 

I suppose a major problem is that these little niggles that usually endear José to us and so terribly enrage opposition fans and managers are really only acceptable if he is winning: his appreciation of the footballing 'dark arts', his willingness to play entirely reactive football if he thinks it will get his side a win, talking complete and utter bollocks in the press if he thinks it will give him a strategic advantage for even a second. Without the consistent victories which have become his trademark, all of these things become more noticeable, and he just seems like a sore loser, an arsehole, and perhaps even a total lunatic. I think another problem is that the way he has dealt with the Fearn/Carneiro/Hazard scenario was truly unacceptable, perhaps his worst 'dirty deed' yet, and the fallout which led to the predictably popular Eva leaving has made it seem all the worse.

 

One problem in assessing whether or not José should stay is that there is really no precedent here. José has never been in a situation like this, so we have no idea of whether or not he can turn it around. Even coming into a new club, he has never inherited a team which was lower than fifth the previous season; the closest thing is when he took the Uniao de Leiria job (who are now in the Portuguese third division), but despite the fact that he took them as high as third, he only spent half a season there, and Leiria had already been overperforming the previous season when they came fifth.

 

There has been quite a lot of speculation that he's lost, if not all, then a large portion of the dressing room. While it's impossible to prove that, it's clear that he is at least unable to motivate the majority of the players. There is some precedent for this; it was widely reported that there was a great deal of dressing room strife during his last season at Real Madrid, but even so, they still finished second, reached the Champions League semis, and even in the second half of the season when things were reportedly falling apart, José's Real didn't lose a league game from the start of February. Even with behind the scenes problems José was still capable of running a world-class side, which as it stands he is failing miserably to do; never at any point has any team José has managed ever been close to as bad as we are now.

 

Obviously I very much love the guy and everything he has done for us, but I am wary of letting that love fog my judgement in trying to figure this out. I'm nowhere near old enough to be considered one of the old guard of fans (i.e. I never saw us nearly get relegated from the second division), but I do have enough experience of us being [relatively] mediocre not to mind if we have a couple of iffy seasons trying to sort this mess out.

 

However, what scares me sh*tless about this are the ramifications of us failing to qualify for the Champions League. If there is unrest among the players, some of whom are rightfully counted among the best in the world, that will surely only be exacerbated if they spend enough time deprived of the limelight of playing on the biggest footballing stage which exists, at the highest standard of football in the world. In addition to that, we have more or less single-handedly kept the English league's coefficient alive in European competitions, and if we misfire in the Champions League again, next season it may become even harder to qualify as the number of spots could be reduced to three. I suppose what I am trying to say is that as ruthless as this may sound, even a period this short of playing this badly, albeit one which makes it near impossible to finish fourth or win one of the European trophies, could lead to a long-term decline of the club which we may take years to recover from.

 

I would absolutely love nothing more than to see José at the helm of a ridiculous Chelsea dynasty of a decade or more with trophies aplenty. As a result I think there is still a window, perhaps a month, during which he should get the chance to improve the side's form (drastically with any luck).

 

The next four games after Villa at home (which on paper is one of our easier fixtures) are Dynamo Kiev away (a very difficult trip, a defeat in which could more or less kill us in the Champions League), West Ham away (who have been excellent against the top sides although admittedly not at home), Stoke away in the League Cup (another difficult fixture although the League Cup could be an excellent chance to boost our morale with some easier games if we win, either against lower league sides or weakened top sides), and then Liverpool at home on Hallowe'en, possibly with Klopp in charge, who absolutely schooled José when Real and Dortmund last met in the Champions League semis. f**king up October as we did in September could more or less end our season and any genuine hopes of even qualifying for the Champions League. Many managers have been sacked for less, many of them deservedly so. If we fail to beat Villa, I will be very, very worried as everything that follows will be more difficult.

 

I think José deserves more time, but past successes don't give him a mandate to stay in the job indefinitely regardless of our form. The sword of Damocles is dangling precariously, but thankfully José has a thicker skin (skull?) than most. I truly, truly hope he can do it.

Even if we were to miss out on the top 4 this season i see very little ramifications for us, just as United did not suffer at all in failing to qualify the year before last, when they brought in Di Maria, Falcao, Shaw, Herrera, Rojo and Blind, most of who were big names and had other clubs vying for their signatures.

 

We (and United, City and Arsenal) have too much money and reputation to fall out of the top 4 for a sustained period of time, particularly now that FFP has fallen apart. Unless a club outside that 4 were to get a very wealthy backer there is no-one there to consistently challenge.

 

In reality we'd probably throw a lot of cash around and easily qualify the next season.

Edited October 7, 201510 yr by Jonty

 

“Mourinho's return to the club in 2013 was packaged as a long-term project that would combine the building of a young team with instant success. The message from both the club and the manager was that this time the Portuguese was in it for the long haul, having assuaged his desire to conquer Europe's other major leagues. With plenty of cynical eyebrows raised, there was much murmuring that this standpoint would prove to be a mere platitude should results take a turn for the worse. Given Abramovich's penchant for ruthlessness, it was an understandable concern. For the time being though, it seems like the assertions of 2013 were not just soundbites; the desire to build a legacy and foundation to serve the club through the next 10 to 20 years are genuine ambitions. After several years of turbulence, despite the deluge of trophies that came along with it, stability is the new status quo at Chelsea and it is to be applauded.”

 

I think this is the most important part of the espn blogger’s post, as it sets out the plans and aspirations of the club on appointing Jose with clarity and precision. Moving on three seasons and we are champions again, but those raised cynical eyebrows are [understandably] beginning to belong to the fans themselves and not just on faces in the media, where the raising of them has been constant and suggestive of their continuous use of botox as well as b****x to undermine our club. Indeed, officials appear to have come to this particular party in droves this season, forever quizzically casting doubt on the validity of our claims on the pitch and thereby causing players to doubt both ability and judgement when making the genuine tackle or [its alter ego] when putting a foot in, often doing neither and ultimately suffering loss of confidence as a consequence.

 

Whilst you can make what you will of my assessment, there can really be no denying the current rush to corner a Portuguese quarry, almost as if Jose’s third season is less of a syndrome and more of an open one in which he is hounded to distraction and from every quarter. Indeed, media blood lust levels are bound to increase further with the arrival of Klopp at the Kop in the next few days, his attacking ethos lauded and directly compared to Jose’s more practical approach. The irony here is that the pressing style and the passion of both men is very similar, yet, when carried to conclusion [trophies] Mourinho’s pragmatism has won more - expect all this to be brushed aside amidst Merseyside and Media euphoria, Klopp’s honeymoon period easily extending to our meeting and, quite probably, ending in another defeat. 

 

But none of this will matter long term, as long as Jose gets the support he deserves and as long as Roman doesn’t join the [witch] hunt. And thankfully, after the club’s statement, the general consensus seems to be that he wont. Any change of heart would be music to media ears, resulting in a double whammy of delight - Jose out [confirmation of their best fears and our worst] followed by more derision in the wake of yet another Abramovich sacking. Staying strong is what is required now, together with a performance against Villa that sees us encamped in their half, constantly threatening their penalty area, and an emphatic victory at the end of it all.                    

.

Edited October 7, 201510 yr by Dorset

 

 

I think José deserves more time, but past successes don't give him a mandate to stay in the job indefinitely regardless of our form. The sword of Damocles is dangling precariously, but thankfully José has a thicker skin (skull?) than most. I truly, truly hope he can do it.

 

 

Plokoon I'm sorry I only quoted the last part of your post but I agree with all of it to an extent, I would certainly give Jose more time than you but no matter how much respect Joses biggest supporters have, we all must share your concerns.

 

I can't argue with any of your post really all I can do is say (as won't come as any surprise to you) I'd give him the rest of the season and if we are playing better regardless of league position in may, I'd hope he stayed and had another bash at next season.

 

There really is no reason I can see that he can't be more than a two season wonder, if he can motivate good teams to become better over the short term, I can find no logical reason he can't do it long term and better...I do think we need to bring some players in and I think the boys know that which isn't helping their confidence at all, especially being as the main players we rely on for leadership and their experience are the ones we need to bring in players to gradually replace.

 

It's a tough one and Jose has always said and done things that are almost embarrassing for me as a fan, it is as you say much more bearable when we're winning and sadly that might be a pointer that it's a problem in our personality rather than Joses...at least he's consistent.

Edited October 7, 201510 yr by Chippy

Article from Danny Higginbotham about why English clubs have been so sh*te in Europe recently:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/champions-league-2015-it-s-a-scandal-how-we-ve-thrown-away-what-made-british-sides-great-says-danny-a6677666.html

Never been one to call for the managers head, I even think scolari and avb could have been given longer.

I am looking forward to Mourinho turning this around and in 18 months time we are on the cusp of 2 titles in 3 seasons.

Interesting read Ploks and not a million miles from a nail on the head article, maybe a bit over simplified but it does ring true especially to someone who mainly watches Chelsea games.

 

A peek Lampard, Terry, Cole etc never ever new when they were beaten and some of the big game players from overseas are sorley missed too (it isn't only British players that have the attitude but it certainly seems more of them do when you think about it).

 

It's still pointing out to me that we lack leaders on the pitch and I think some of our players need to step up, oddly enough Costa seems to have the right attitude if he could cheannel it just a bit better maybe some of the passion would rub off on the younger boys.

Edited October 8, 201510 yr by Chippy

Briefly saw this thread the other day and went to post but been busy at work and then lost my mojo of what I was going to say. But great thread Chippy - some really good points and views from All and Plokoons lengthy post above is one of the posts of the year- hard to disagree with most of it and he has captured a lot of what I've been trying to say

 

 

Think Jose needs and deserves time but how long is too hard to say. All very well saying give him until the end of the season but if we lost the next 4 games and are in the bottom three, what then? We all hope this is a bad blip and we'll turn it around and have to be confident Jose will do so, but he will get judged game by game, week by week and if we keep losing and there are no signs of improvement, NO Way can he last the season.  

As you say Nibs, Ploks post was superb, everything I wanted to see mentioned when I posted the thread, he's really asked the glaring questions that are running through even Mourinhos biggest fans minds if they're being honest and my post was aimed directly at posters like Plokoon and yourself of whom I'm confident are right behind the manager and Hope he pulls this round but are by no means convinced he will or should be given time to try.

 

I started the thread with the many fans like you out there in mind who are echoing exactly what you said in your post "week by week and if we keep losing and there are no signs of improvement, NO Way can he last the season" I posted what I did to try to gently push home my point (my belief) that if Jose is going to have that sort of run, I'm not at all convinced a change of face will have any more success and I feel they'll take a lot longer to turn it round while I also believe when they do turn it round we will still be missing what we could have if we left it to Mourinho.

 

I realise every change of face has brought a little uptake for a short while, some for longer but it never lasts and this perpetual in out saga rears its head again without fail as soon as the going gets tough.

 

My fear this time is bigger for two reasons, reason one is obvious, much as I've defended every manager since Jose left the first time (I won't even include FSW as a manager) I have always believed quietly that we could never better him, we went through a lot of different names and each had there own measure of success followed by failure but while these changes came about we had one common denominator, the one thing that kept things on a steady and fairly even keel considering the upheavels and that for me was a great core group of players.

 

Ok there are stories of these same players turning on managers and being the kiss of death for them, true or not the core group here now is far weaker, if they have turned on Jose, I don't feel they are strong enough to cause enough damage in this squad and if they are with him (which I'd rather believe for the sake of my future enjoyment of the game if nothing else) then I believe that not only will letting him go make them even weaker but I don't think they have what it takes to drag performances together under a new and likely less respected Coach.

 

So for me and the purpose of the thread I'm just saying as I would if we we're talking over a beer, spot on, I can see your concerns But...we're just not going to get a better manager

Edited October 8, 201510 yr by Chippy

Lots of good, well thought out posts in here. Refreshing.

I’m in a position where I do not particularly like Mourinho as the person we’re exposed to; as such I feel no real love towards him and only my club. I can understand why people are so unequivocal in their support for him, he is like no one else, his trophy record speaks for himself and if you’ve seen long trophyless periods, you probably appreciate it more than someone like me who’s first game was 1996 and so only had to suffer 2 years of not looking like winning a thing(!). Of course this doesn’t make older posters more of a fan but they may be better placed to compare us with and without him. That can’t be argued. I suspect that’s why you back him Chippy? You’re what… 100? You’ve seen the bad times ;-)

The whole saga with Eva left a bitter taste, without putting my suffragette ribbon on I can imagine it’s quite hard for any female to get into a male sport at one of the top clubs in the world, let alone one in the Conference league south. You have to be extra better than the males, you have to have the little bit more grit, knowledge and ability. I doubt we hired her for PR purposes or because she was a bit of all right. I’m just disappointed he felt the need to publically criticise two people of who have much more knowledge than him in the medical field. If a player goes down, especially someone like Hazard (no offence to anyone else but let’s be honest, he was something else last season) then you get your arse onto that pitch ASAP and make sure he’s all right, especially if he shows no sign of getting up.

Anyway, that doesn’t really address his capability as a Manager but perhaps, like others have alluded to, it has affected dressing room morale a bit. It’s not unrecoverable and of course I’m just guessing but both physio’s would have had close relationships with the players because they’re the ones who make sure they don’t pull up or strain every week. To make it public was an abhorrent (yes) thing to do.

Okay, away from Eva. This story has really taken up too much time; it doesn’t affect his ability as a tactician and team selector.

I think the majority of us are getting frustrated that the out-of-form players are continuously getting picked with no signs of improvement and good performances seemingly aren’t awarded with their previous showing. Ramires may have broken that trend in recent games and I’m all for not tinkering (argh) with the team but this is one or two clear underperformers, it may not change the team around but it may make them think ‘damn, he’s not afraid of dropping the stars/favourites, best up my game’… and to be honest we saw that with Casillas, why hasn’t he done the same here? We’re what, 9ish games in? A quarter of the season gone already we’re lagging behind at a dangerous distance.

For me, he deserves longer to sort this out. I agree we may be screwed with a year or two out of the CL but I don’t have the figures on how much it would cost and question if top players wouldn’t sign for us anyway… We’re not Man Utd in terms of reputation and size but we’re not a small, blue and white hooped, side from West London… We do have some pull in the transfer market regardless of current position. I believe we’re still heading for exciting times, especially with this stadium. I disagree with a lot of what Mourinho does but I think he’s earned the right to rectify it. I don’t think he’s lost the dressing room entirely but confidence is clearly at a low and I do think some of the players got complacent after we won it fairly easily last season. The Manager is not the only one to blame for this slump though and it's great that they come out and admit it but it would be better if they showed some signs of actually carrying it out.

The January window will be interesting if we’ve not cracked the top 6 at least, hopefully we don’t go mad but there will be some needless panic buys (Caudrado FFS?) if we can’t dig ourselves out of this current hole. We need first teamers and not squad members, the Premier League has moved on from two years ago when we signed Fabregas and Costa (who were first teamers) and we need to keep up. I do think he’s had the board’s backing with regards to transfers but we just didn’t get our targets. £40m for a 21 year old defender? Nah, wait till his contract has reduced and try again.

In short: don’t like his persona but he’s the best around and we won’t get a better Manager with the current crop available. Keep him and don’t lose him to a rival.

That's a great post Gem

good read this thread to me the issues are

Emenalo - Think he is a major cause of unrest and friction behind the scenes .....have a whole thread of pictures which prove the point. There is a classic picture of JM jumping for joy and Ememalo glaring at him ... why is he pictured next to every new signing ???

Split dressing room - we have the French/Flemish speakers on one side , Spanish /Portuguese on the other English and other in the middle .

Lack of Quality buys and competition in the squad - Lets face it we crawled over the line in May and looked physically and emotionally shattered ...we still have this hangover

I would prefer we give JM time to turn it round and would like to see more youngsters given the chance who could /should be the backbone of the team for the future .

Wasn't everyone chuffed to bits with Emaleno last Summer? Why a difference a year makes eh.

Also we have nothing to back up a split dressing room other than hearsay.

Totally agree on the lack of quality buys.

Edited October 9, 201510 yr by Bobbywoodhogan

Oi Gem! have some respect, I've seen more Chelsea than you...100 years old, the cheek of these whippersnappers.

 

Good post other than that horible ageist quip, you newbies are all the same, I count myself lucky you didn't call me a twat .

 

Your summing up at the end just about echoed my own thoughts on Jose, hard man to like but there's no arguing with his ability regardless of what we've witnessed this season up to now.

Oi Gem! have some respect, I've seen more Chelsea than you...100 years old, the cheek of these whippersnappers.

Good post other than that horible ageist quip, you newbies are all the same, I count myself lucky you didn't call me a twat .

Your summing up at the end just about echoed my own thoughts on Jose, hard man to like but there's no arguing with his ability regardless of what we've witnessed this season up to now.

100 years old? What's your secret?

100 years old? What's your secret?

 

That was my secret, now Gem's gone and told everyone and they'll all be after my special elixir...top secret ingredients available through my ebay account, £10 a bottle, a bit like Peckham spring. :-)

Lots of good, well thought out posts in here. Refreshing.

I’m in a position where I do not particularly like Mourinho as the person we’re exposed to; as such I feel no real love towards him and only my club. I can understand why people are so unequivocal in their support for him, he is like no one else, his trophy record speaks for himself and if you’ve seen long trophyless periods, you probably appreciate it more than someone like me who’s first game was 1996 and so only had to suffer 2 years of not looking like winning a thing(!). Of course this doesn’t make older posters more of a fan but they may be better placed to compare us with and without him.

 

Jose’s current dilemma has always been an easy one to explain - he has a duty to deliver success at Stamford Bridge in an era where Chelsea's rivals, both at home and abroad, continue to spend huge sums of money on star players, at a time when the ethos within our club has shifted dramatically towards youth development. Ironically, he needs the established members of the first team squad to perform, but it is those very players that are blocking the route to the first team for those in the academy. As Gem has pointed out, there are many on here, including herself, who have hardly experienced bad times in any shape or form, and for the boss to risk a return to them [by giving youth a chance] well, it just doesn’t bear thinking about.

 

However, as a fan who has been through that evolution once before, over fifty years ago, albeit from a lower starting point, I feel qualified to give my opinion on the viability of pursuing such a risk/reward policy. Moreover, having done some research [mainly quotes] to back up a fading memory, I’ve found some remarkable comparisons between the early sixties and the present day situation. Sadly, I sense there will be a parting of these [ground hog day] ways in the months to come, but, as events have unfolded, the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of what went before is there for us to take and the path [due to results] has become a simpler one, should Jose choose to go down it. Let me explain further, with apologies to all, especially Chippy, for the inordinate length of this post on a crucial topic…

 

When Tommy Docherty was appointed Chelsea manager in 1961 my visits to the Bridge with my father were as regular as clockwork and much enjoyed by me, though he never liked our new man's approach to the game, finding it too confrontational for his liking. This view of him wasn’t to be helped by the side experiencing a terrible run of form, during which we plummeted down the table, rock bottom and relegated well before the end of April. Yet the following season saw the Doc bravely ditch his team of experienced names in favour of youngsters who had recently enjoyed back-to-back victories in the FA Youth Cup in 1960 and 1961, not to mention finishing runners-up in 1958. His philosophy back then was an oft-repeated and a simple one - if you’re good enough, you’re old enough, and a recent quote explains his reasoning:- 

 

"They’d just won the FA Youth Cup for the second time, so I threw them in because they were good enough. It wasn’t about a culture or anything like that. They never disappointed me. You’ve got to back your judgement as a manager. Every young player is going to have bad games and make mistakes, but you need to trust your judgement that he is good enough. I dropped Barry Bridges - an England international - for Peter Osgood, who was just 17. I said to Ossie that he had 10 games to prove himself and he went out and did it.”

 

Lest we forget, the players in question (Docherty’s ’Little Diamonds’) were Ron Harris, Ken Shellito, Bobby Tambling, Peter Bonetti, Terry Venables, Peter Houseman, John Hollins and Peter Osgood, and modern day comparisons abound every which-way, with the notable exception of circumstance, namely our current status in the Premier League, when measured against Division 2 backwaters and [what was to become] a cavalier crusade back to the top division of the Football League. In other comparative respects, I gave you the ‘Little Diamonds’, so I’ll now raise that with RLC, Kenedy, Solanke, Boga, Baker, Bamford, Kane, Kalas, you can name others if you wish, but, if I was to trump all those with one major comparison, it would be Tommy Doc with The Special One. 

 

Similar characters, yet tasked to succeed in different Chelsea circumstances, it would be easy to dismiss any suggestion of a complete mirror image by citing the present day pressures on Jose to maintain a top four position, whereas Tommy Doc could just go for it, and did so with aplomb. But Jose has already addressed this issue himself, stating that he will ’play the kids’ when ruled out of the major competitions, it’s just that the need to avoid such a calamitous state of affairs at any cost will mean that it will cost, and Roman will pay, and it’s a vicious circle that will continually defer the development process. Indeed finance and the use of it was also a problem affecting the Doc’s diamond mining after promotion. Back in the early sixties we were supposedly producing talented players at such a rate as to guarantee a Championship victory within a matter of years, but we had not long sold Jimmy Greaves to AC Milan and, to quote the Doc again, "Had the chairman not sold Jimmy, we would have won the championship four or five times with that team."

 

So, the balance between blooding youth and the buying [or keeping] of the best players is a fine one and Ron Harris recently summed it all up perfectly, as follows:-

 

"Tommy was a manager who gave youngsters a chance. His philosophy was that youngsters never cheat, that they'll work hard all day to prove themselves. When I made my debut at 17, I thought Tom was the bee's knees. I would have run through a brick wall for him. Now, you think of the young lads Jose has, if he starts playing them, they’ll be running up the Fulham Road telling everyone they’re playing for Chelsea's first team and they’ll love him for it. But in these days of short managerial stints, when it's difficult enough to build a team around experienced names let alone youngsters, is that approach even possible?“

 

All this may [or may not] be food for thought for Jose, because he’s got more than enough on his plate at the moment, but, irrespective of the support issue we’ve been discussing here, there is an underlying belief that we should see a bit of give and take in the team selections to come - a sort of quid pro quo, as one Shed-Ender put it, and it would be nice if the next game sees this come to fruition. Nobody is looking for another Ossie-type instant arrival on the scene, but if we were, or if Carlsberg did Chelsea team selections, the sight of Casey Palmer on the bench against Villa, followed by a debut appearance in the last five minutes when we’re 5-0 up, would not go unnoticed, or amiss.   

^^

That post has again got me thinking about how enjoyable it all was back then, I don't ever remember moaning when Chelsea lost and I don't remember getting annoyed at a manager until Dave Sexton let Ossie and Hudson go.

 

It would be brilliant to see Jose bring some youngsters in and see them run their hearts out for him, might be just what the established boys need to see they're up against for starting spots.

 

I think only a conversation between the owner and the manager could leave the way clear for it though and sadly that feels like a lot to hope for.

Edited October 9, 201510 yr by Chippy

I met Jose in person in Seattle 2004, stayed in same hotel as squad by coincidence, on way back from night out he was just hanging out by the

lobby entry, little chat, my impression- a very nice and humble bloke, got the obligatory photo with him, well chuffed.

 

Like a good 'trainspotter' that I am, wanted to get that photo inked by him, fast fwd a couple of years to the UCLA pore-season training camp

im pitch side watching the session and when it ended  made my move. Got a quick scribble on the photo and a very different Jose, not in a good demeanor, felt like i was hassling him, by this time the club had won back to back titles and i suppose all the pressure that came with it was coming to bear. Coincidentally it proved to be his last CFC pre-season for a while. 

 

Only been going matches since 76, seen a few managers come and go, hes by far the best, fans on here calling for his head makes little sense, wont stoop to hurling insults, but have to ask why this 'instant-gratification' culture gets applied to football, its bollox, no team is entitled to show up and win, 

just like our participation in the game of life.

Yep no team is entitled to show up and win but you do expect passion and effort and players earning the huge money they get paid.

Pretty spot on.