I've said it before in another thread.  Off the top of my head there are 12 wingers who are definitely better than Willian.  Out of those twelve two are quite old now (Robben and Ribery - 31).  Nine are way too expensive or unavailable (Ronaldo, Bale, James, Isco, Neymar, Gotze, Di Maria, Sanchez, Stirling).  Reus is the only one who is relatively cheap and potentially available, however i reckon he's going to Madrid.  

 

After that who do you get to improve that right wing position.  Cuadrado is a good signing in that he is in the next tier of player and will add depth to Chelsea.  People complain about Willian but there just aren't that many wingers who are better and it would be difficult to get an upgrade.  Personally from what i've seen lately, Willian might actually be more suited to the 10 role and provide good competition for Oscar. 

 

P.s Amongst those 9 i mentioned earlier, Sanchez was the one that got away.  He was available and went for a decent price.

Koke, Turan...

 

I can think of a couple in the Portuguese League alone. Salvio has the same workrate in that he covers the whole right flank but he offers far more going forward, Gaitan and Brahimi. He's a good player and does his role well for us but there are quite a few out there who are better, let's not kid ourselves. 

 

As for being suited to the number 10 role, he's played there quite a few times already and admittedly he did look better there from what I recall but he still had the same problem of being unable to get past players or making that final pass. Never really got in a position to score either like you get from Oscar. 

Agreed he is probably better suited to a central position but again you can't make a comparison if he's not playing there week in week out... How many of those mentioned have to get up and down the wing like he does and provide as much cover for the full back?

 

Ah, but that's because the top AMs in the world usually don't get pushed out on to the wing, unless the formation necessitates it. Ozil being the exception, which reminds me of a player I missed in that list, Santi Cazorla. 

 

Now, the reason Oscar is preferred down the middle may just be down to Willian being more versatile. But we'll find that out soon enough I expect.

Ah, but that's because the top AMs in the world usually don't get pushed out on to the wing, unless the formation necessitates it. Ozil being the exception, which reminds me of a player I missed in that list, Santi Cazorla. 

 

Now, the reason Oscar is preferred down the middle may just be down to Willian being more versatile. But we'll find that out soon enough I expect.

 

 

You also have to ask the job that Willian was brought to do, he has pretty much always been used out on the wing for us with the exception of a few games. Again, very possibly because of the job he can do there and how it suits Jose.

 

Like Iv’e maintained throughout the thread, Willian should score more goals. His ability as a football player alone says he should score more goals. It actually makes little sense that he doesn’t. But what he does do is offer our team balance .

 

I went to a Clive woodward seminar some years back and he was explaining that he built his teams on a pyramid structure, all teams need a certain percentage of character types effectively you can’t have a team of Hazards or even a forward line full of hazards. You need some players to do the thankless yards for others to prouduce their best. I’ve often through Jose buys in to this same type of philosophy and Willian very rarly has let him down. Do we need competition and other options, absolutely, does that make Willian a bad player, 100% No..

 

Oh and Santi "I dont tackle Carzorla" ... give me a break!

Edited February 2, 201511 yr by barak81

You also have to ask the job that Willian was brought to do, he has pretty much always been used out on the wing for us with the exception of a few games. Again, very possibly because of the job he can do there and how it suits Jose.

Like Iv’e maintained throughout the thread, Willian should score more goals. His ability as a football player alone says he should score more goals. It actually makes little sense that he doesn’t. But what he does do is offer our team balance .

I went to a Clive woodward seminar some years back and he was explaining that he built his teams on a pyramid structure, all teams need a certain percentage of character types effectively you can’t have a team of Hazards or even a forward line full of hazards. You need some players to do the thankless yards for others to prouduce their best. I’ve often through Jose buys in to this same type of philosophy and Willian very rarly has let him down. Do we need competition and other options, absolutely, does that make Willian a bad player, 100% No..

Oh and Santi "I dont tackle Carzorla" ... give me a break!

What Sir Clive is talking about doesn't apply here though.

We have what he had in Richard Hill and Neil Back with Matic and Oscar.

What we need is someone to balance out Eden Hazard like he had to balance out Jason Robinson. Having Willian on the right allows opposition teams to double and even triple team Eden.

You also have to ask the job that Willian was brought to do, he has pretty much always been used out on the wing for us with the exception of a few games. Again, very possibly because of the job he can do there and how it suits Jose.

 

Like Iv’e maintained throughout the thread, Willian should score more goals. His ability as a football player alone says he should score more goals. It actually makes little sense that he doesn’t. But what he does do is offer our team balance .

 

I went to a Clive woodward seminar some years back and he was explaining that he built his teams on a pyramid structure, all teams need a certain percentage of character types effectively you can’t have a team of Hazards or even a forward line full of hazards. You need some players to do the thankless yards for others to prouduce their best. I’ve often through Jose buys in to this same type of philosophy and Willian very rarly has let him down. Do we need competition and other options, absolutely, does that make Willian a bad player, 100% No..

 

Oh and Santi "I dont tackle Carzorla" ... give me a break!

 

Don't really disagree with anything you've written there. Yes, the team needs a certain percentage of character types, but character doesn't just mean working your socks off and flying into a few tackles, it also means stepping up to the plate, when the team needs you. Drogba, Lamps, JT, these are the definitions of character types. If Hazard for instance is having a bad game, and Fabregas is out injured, we may just need the other guy to step. Is Willian the guy to do that? I'm not sure. But he does a job and I'm happy enough with that.

 

Oh and Cazorla wouldn't get in a Jose team over Willian maybe, doesn't mean he's not a better player.

What Sir Clive is talking about doesn't apply here though.

We have what he had in Richard Hill and Neil Back with Matic and Oscar.

What we need is someone to balance out Eden Hazard like he had to balance out Jason Robinson. Having Willian on the right allows opposition teams to double and even triple team Eden.

 

 

Hold on a cotton picking second, why does Oscar get to be Neil Back, why can't Willian do that role, or if we are more realistic the Job of Mike Tindel,

 

Lets see what the new lad brings in but my question stands, from your knowledge of the game, 30 million in hand, who do you buy instead of Willian to play on the wing, that will do the job jose is asking

 

PS danny murphy on Talk sport defending Costa at the moment. 

Don't really disagree with anything you've written there. Yes, the team needs a certain percentage of character types, but character doesn't just mean working your socks off and flying into a few tackles, it also means stepping up to the plate, when the team needs you. Drogba, Lamps, JT, these are the definitions of character types. If Hazard for instance is having a bad game, and Fabregas is out injured, we may just need the other guy to step. Is Willian the guy to do that? I'm not sure. But he does a job and I'm happy enough with that.

 

Oh and Cazorla wouldn't get in a Jose team over Willian maybe, doesn't mean he's not a better player.

 

 

This one is interesting for me. I'm not saying he isn't but i'm sure the assesment is based on there ability to deliver a final ball. 

 

Now isn't this pretty simmiler to the Anti football argument which I have repeatedly with friends. I personally don't believe in anti football. Deffending is football as well, if a team can deffend better then another can attack to the point that they negate and win that is the better foootball team on the day for me. All of a sudden football became about attacking players and abiility to attack. Thats 5 aside and fifa voodoo stuff. Ability to defend, tackle are just as important. So what are the qualitys that make Carzola a better player then Willian, I would say Mata was a better attacking tallent then either actually, but as a complete footballer, maybe not. Just food for thought 

This one is interesting for me. I'm not saying he isn't but i'm sure the assesment is based on there ability to deliver a final ball. 

 

Now isn't this pretty simmiler to the Anti football argument which I have repeatedly with friends. I personally don't believe in anti football. Deffending is football as well, if a team can deffend better then another can attack to the point that they negate and win that is the better foootball team on the day for me. All of a sudden football became about attacking players and abiility to attack. Thats 5 aside and fifa voodoo stuff. Ability to defend, tackle are just as important. So what are the qualitys that make Carzola a better player then Willian, I would say Mata was a better attacking tallent then either actually, but as a complete footballer, maybe not. Just food for thought 

 

Ability to deliver a final ball is pretty important when judging players who are mainly supposed to perform in the final third I would say. And Cazorla is levels ahead of Willian there.

 

Defending is equally important in football and I love the art of organised team defending. But if your ATTACKING midfielder is in the team for his defending ability (I'm not saying thats the case with Willian who has several attacking qualities), I would call that negative football. Of course, complete footballers who can attack and defend in all 10 outfield positions would be brilliant, but they don't really come around often.

Hold on a cotton picking second, why does Oscar get to be Neil Back, why can't Willian do that role, or if we are more realistic the Job of Mike Tindel,

 

Lets see what the new lad brings in but my question stands, from your knowledge of the game, 30 million in hand, who do you buy instead of Willian to play on the wing, that will do the job jose is asking

 

PS danny murphy on Talk sport defending Costa at the moment. 

 

Because Oscar is a fantastic workhorse in both defence and attack despite being undersized - nice analogue for Back.

 

If you're talking about balance then we're obviously unbalanced and I think that's partly by design. The problem is that our right hand side really lacks an offensive output comparable to what we have on the left in Hazard. Yes we also have Cesc and Oscar who have both stepped up with either goals or incisive passes (as well as high workrate and defensive contribution) but we need that from a right-winger too.

 

I think Willian is a fine footballer with nice technique, but I think he doesn't do enough with the ball. That's why his defensive workrate is overrated when in reality it's nothing special in the context of our team. What I want from him isn't just goals or assists, but for him to put his hand up when those around him are undeperforming and be the guy who takes control. Matic does it, Hazard's done it, Costa's done it, Fab has done it, Oscar has done it....what is the excuse for a £30 million, 26 year old for not doing that?

 

People used to make excuses for Mikel up until the point we replaced him. I think the same could happen with Willian.

 

As for who I would buy, Cuadrado does seem to fit the bill both in terms of what he offers with the ball and without it.

Because Oscar is a fantastic workhorse in both defence and attack despite being undersized - nice analogue for Back.

 

If you're talking about balance then we're obviously unbalanced and I think that's partly by design. The problem is that our right hand side really lacks an offensive output comparable to what we have on the left in Hazard. Yes we also have Cesc and Oscar who have both stepped up with either goals or incisive passes (as well as high workrate and defensive contribution) but we need that from a right-winger too.

 

I think Willian is a fine footballer with nice technique, but I think he doesn't do enough with the ball. That's why his defensive workrate is overrated when in reality it's nothing special in the context of our team. What I want from him isn't just goals or assists, but for him to put his hand up when those around him are undeperforming and be the guy who takes control. Matic does it, Hazard's done it, Costa's done it, Fab has done it, Oscar has done it....what is the excuse for a £30 million, 26 year old for not doing that?

 

People used to make excuses for Mikel up until the point we replaced him. I think the same could happen with Willian.

 

As for who I would buy, Cuadrado does seem to fit the bill both in terms of what he offers with the ball and without it.

 

 

you know that up untill 2 years ago Cuuadrado didn't score goals, worse then Willian.... 

you know that up untill 2 years ago Cuuadrado didn't score goals, worse then Willian.... 

 

Because he's a rightback converted to winger.

Because he's a rightback converted to winger.

 

 

As i say, i personally have not seen him play live and over any period of time. So i don't have an opinion. I hope he is all that and a bag of chips.

you know that up untill 2 years ago Cuuadrado didn't score goals, worse then Willian.... 

 

Was that when he was still being used as a right-back?

He seems to be quite essential in the transformation of brana to a winger.

Why does everyone suddenly think that Carzola produces so much more than Willian?! I have never seen a player who is less clinical in front of goal. I haven't checked the assist stats but I would be surprised if he assists too many. He is a skillful player, very easy on the eye but with no composure in the final third.

This may be wrong though! Maybe I have just watched the wrong matches.

Can i just say that the quality of posting in this thread in the last 24 hours has been very good, really informative and opinions backed up by good reasoning.

 

Back in 2010 Benfica had a great team full of quality attacking players, Di maria, Aimar, Cardozo, Saviola, Coentrao (full back) that played in a diamond formation.  Aimar was at the tip of the diamond with Di maria on the left of that diamond.  It was a delight to watch and got the best out of Dimaria and coentrao (killer left side) especially.  However for all our attacking play the most important player for that team was Ramires playing on the right side of that diamond.  It was he that did all the dirty work and provided the balance and running that let our other players flourish.  He was our firefighter.

 

Sometimes you need these type of players to allow others and the team in general to flourish.  That's why for me Willian will always be important for this Chelsea team.  He may lose his starting spot to Cuadrado now and may back up both the RW and no 10 spots but whenever he plays i just feel more confident that the team will be more solid and will play better as a whole.  I couldn't really say the same about Schurrle.

Can i just say that the quality of posting in this thread in the last 24 hours has been very good, really informative and opinions backed up by good reasoning.

 

Back in 2010 Benfica had a great team full of quality attacking players, Di maria, Aimar, Cardozo, Saviola, Coentrao (full back) that played in a diamond formation.  Aimar was at the tip of the diamond with Di maria on the left of that diamond.  It was a delight to watch and got the best out of Dimaria and coentrao (killer left side) especially.  However for all our attacking play the most important player for that team was Ramires playing on the right side of that diamond.  It was he that did all the dirty work and provided the balance and running that let our other players flourish.  He was our firefighter.

 

Sometimes you need these type of players to allow others and the team in general to flourish.  That's why for me Willian will always be important for this Chelsea team.  He may lose his starting spot to Cuadrado now and may back up both the RW and no 10 spots but whenever he plays i just feel more confident that the team will be more solid and will play better as a whole.  I couldn't really say the same about Schurrle.

 

No one is denying the need for water carriers in the team, but there has to be a balance. Oscar at his best combines good attacking play with relentless pressing and ferocious tackling. 

 

Willian at his best is a pretty good defensive presence and an unexceptional attacker. Always has been.

 

I often what are the games that stick in people's minds when it comes to Willian. Which are the ones you point to and say 'this is what he offers'?

Sergio, you're a very good poster and very knowledgable about football, I've kept my eye on your posts for a while and you should post more.

 

Some of those players you cited aren't really wingers, though they may be wide players. I don't regard Isco, James, Neymar and Gotze as wingers, not in the sense I understand the term.

 

I agree Cuadrado is not in the top bracket, but it's a sensible signing. Reus isn't coming, and even if he is, we can do business in the summer if we want to. Jose is never afraid to ship one out in order to accomodate the man he wants.

 

I wonder where De Bruyne ranks for you? I understand why Jose shipped him out, he wanted to make room in the squad and raise some funds, and I don't think he was particularly impressed with De Bruyne's attitude, as he wants players that are prepared to bide their time and fight for their place, and I think De Bruyne had grown impatient, perhaps understandably.

 

Anyway the Willian vs Cuadrado debate? Willian is a very consistent player, he has bad games, like Tottenham away, but he usually performs to a high standard, never to an exceptional one, and he's never a game-breaker. He's a 7 out of 10 for me, most weeks. Very technical and assured on the ball and I think this is where he'll have the edge over Cuadrado. Both seem to be very hard-working but I think Cuadrado is more individualistic, from the little I've seen. He's a different player to Willian to me and he's a player we badly need, he's available he's reasonably priced he's eligible for the CL and we desperately need some cover and quality on the flanks.

 

He may be more erratic but that's the price you sometimes pay for a bit more imagination, and I think he'll have a bit more spark about him than Willian.

 

Unlike Willian he's prepared to take on the full-back, something you hardly see Willian do. He can go either side, whereas Willian is far easier to defend against, because defenders always push him inside. I know some wingers, such as Robben, can only really go one way too, but Robben has an ability to hurt you that Willian lacks.

 

Hazard has that unpredictability too, he likes to cut inside but he can go outside too and Cuadrado has that. He's an out-and-out right-winger and that's what we need. We don't have one. He may not be as consistent as Willian but he can leave defenders for dust, with his pace, dribbling ability and trickery. In short, he's a more attacking player than Willian, maybe he doesn't link the play so well but he poses more of a threat.

 

Jose's getting him at the right age too, approaching his peak years. He's served his apprenticeship in Italy and now he's ready for the big-time. I'm confident Jose will have him fighting with every sinew for the cause, because he's bought that type of player, a player that has had to work hard to get himself this move, a player that will give everything he's got, a player that Jose likes.

 

I can't understand anyone that's not happy. Jose's weighed up his options, looked at the situation, and made his choice.

 

I'm confident he's made the right one.

 

Great post.  I agree with pretty much everything you say.  

 

A lot of times teams will gang up on Hazard on the left and leave Willian one on on on the opposite side, but Willian not being a natural winger doesn't take advantage of this as much as he should.  I don't know much about Cuadrado but he seems better at taking people on and i think he would cause havoc in these 1 on 1 situations.

 

I've got to say when it comes to De Bruyne there are so many people that rate him that maybe i have to do a bit more analysis and reconsider my stance.  Personally i think he is not good enough to be a starter for Chelsea.  The main reason for this view is that with the way that Chelsea play and the way other teams set up against us i believe his style of football won't translate as much.

 

He won't get any space here, he will have to be able to dribble out of tight spaces and his close control has to be top notch.  I saw the highlights the other day against Bayern and he did great, demonstrating good decision making on the break and amazing finishing.  His passing and crossing seems very good.  However i also think of that extremely high line that Bayern play with and how he excelled in space.  How often do Chelsea get that type of space to play in -  hardly ever.  On top of that i think his workrate is not that great and with the rumours of problems with Courtois i think it was the right choice to let him go.

 

Again i haven't watched him a great deal and may be well off.  I just think that for the way Jose wants to play he just isn't a great fit and there are enough players of comparable quality but different characteristics that suit the way we play more, that we shouldn't regret selling him. 

No one is denying the need for water carriers in the team, but there has to be a balance. Oscar at his best combines good attacking play with relentless pressing and ferocious tackling. 

 

Willian at his best is a pretty good defensive presence and an unexceptional attacker. Always has been.

 

I often what are the games that stick in people's minds when it comes to Willian. Which are the ones you point to and say 'this is what he offers'?

 

 

Liverpool at home last season, mine and many peoples MOM in a game some fans thought we would get blown away, he was every where winning everything (Along with Luiz)  and driving us up the pitch!! 

 

Man City away last season, same narative, many on here and hung out the white flags with the laundry. some where saying, as long as we don't get smashed. Willian was every where (along with Matic) he drove us up the pitch and actually but not for hte terrible finishing of his coleagues he would have had a few assists that game as well..

 

That's just two I can point two easily, two huge games that I feel we would have been more likly to loose if not for Willian's contribution 

Koke, Turan...

 

I can think of a couple in the Portuguese League alone. Salvio has the same workrate in that he covers the whole right flank but he offers far more going forward, Gaitan and Brahimi. He's a good player and does his role well for us but there are quite a few out there who are better, let's not kid ourselves. 

 

As for being suited to the number 10 role, he's played there quite a few times already and admittedly he did look better there from what I recall but he still had the same problem of being unable to get past players or making that final pass. Never really got in a position to score either like you get from Oscar. 

 

As a Benfica fan i love both Salvio and Gaitan.  However for this Chelsea team i think Willian actually brings a good mix of the two.  Gaitan doesn't have the workrate that Jose would want and Salvio sometimes lacks the technique and close control that Willian has.  Brahimi i don't know as well so won't comment.

 

We saw glimpses of Willian at no10 against Liverpool and i thought he looked great, time will tell if Jose decides to give him a chance there and maybe he can improve.  

Liverpool at home last season, mine and many peoples MOM in a game some fans thought we would get blown away, he was every where winning everything (Along with Luiz)  and driving us up the pitch!! 

 

Man City away last season, same narative, many on here and hung out the white flags with the laundry. some where saying, as long as we don't get smashed. Willian was every where (along with Matic) he drove us up the pitch and actually but not for hte terrible finishing of his coleagues he would have had a few assists that game as well..

 

That's just two I can point two easily, two huge games that I feel we would have been more likly to loose if not for Willian's contribution 

 

The Liverpool home game was a great performance but I felt that Oscar and Hazard carried him, although he put in a great shift. Maybe that's something that someone who rates him would say is an example of him linking up well with them and freeing them to express themselves or some such description.

 

The Man City game is another like that. Thought he worked hard but was fairly unexceptional and we had players like Hazard and Matic (even Luiz who I've never particularly rated) having exceptional games.

 

Maybe I'm being unfair but his best games seem to be the ones where those around him are having exceptionally good games and he just kinda gets carried along. Doesn't let the side down but doesn't do much.

 

There was one game last season where he played number 10 and I think we won 3-0. Wanna say Stoke but might need to check. Then there's the Southampton away match where we were struggling and the introduction of him and Oscar changed the match, adding pace to the attack. That's about it though.

 

Anyway, we're signing his replacement today so he may well join Mikel in fulfilling a squad role for us.

As a Benfica fan i love both Salvio and Gaitan. However for this Chelsea team i think Willian actually brings a good mix of the two. Gaitan doesn't have the workrate that Jose would want and Salvio sometimes lacks the technique and close control that Willian has. Brahimi i don't know as well so won't comment.

We saw glimpses of Willian at no10 against Liverpool and i thought he looked great, time will tell if Jose decides to give him a chance there and maybe he can improve.

Out of interest, why has Gaitan never got a big move? Does he ever get in the Argentina squad?

Seems like he's been around a while now and he's always impressed me.

My biggest problem with Oscar & to a lesser extent Willian is their tactical awareness, when Hazard is on the ball its like he has eyes in the back of his head, yet Willian and Oscar both seem to get their pocket picked way to easily and far too often, even Costa loses the ball alot, but he is a striker with 4 defenders around him all day. Matic can power out of trouble, and Rambo uses his pace well to escape, & Fabregas is perfect, near untouchable in possession. I think once Oscar and Willian learn to be aware of their surroundings 360 degrees at all times we will see a vast improvement in both, also whoever mentioned Willian's reluctance to take on defenders is spot on, it amazes me because the rare times he does drive past a left back he normally is successful, just needs to back himself more, he is an amazing dribbler and very technical.

I think you will find we are signing Andre's replacement, a player you where quite sure would make his way back after he recovered from illness... he hasn't, this is because it was clear to any one with two eyes in there head that Jose didn't trust him. If you don't have two eyes, you also can get by with two ears because Jose pretty much blamed him for the draw at city, of course there was the back handed compliment as well... but every one knows how jose hates bad defending, much more then he hates an inability to finish. 

 

As for thinking he will end up the bench permanently, I'll wait and see how the new guy settles in before making sweeping statements. I'd hazard a guess few on the forum have watched him play for a full season. Additionally you may see Willian move centrally in some games and Oscar sitting on the bench. 

 

Final food for thought... you say that he only play's well when other do, I'd say they play well BECAUSE of Willian

My biggest problem with Oscar & to a lesser extent Willian is their tactical awareness, when Hazard is on the ball its like he has eyes in the back of his head, yet Willian and Oscar both seem to get their pocket picked way to easily and far too often, even Costa loses the ball alot, but he is a striker with 4 defenders around him all day. Matic can power out of trouble, and Rambo uses his pace well to escape, & Fabregas is perfect, near untouchable in possession. I think once Oscar and Willian learn to be aware of their surroundings 360 degrees at all times we will see a vast improvement in both, also whoever mentioned Willian's reluctance to take on defenders is spot on, it amazes me because the rare times he does drive past a left back he normally is successful, just needs to back himself more, he is an amazing dribbler and very technical.

 

 

Always felt Rami was the most guilty of this