Note yet another instance in which Willian was pivotal in the buildup to a goal for us but for which he will get no statistical credit.

 

I'm sure I read that last season he got 17 'secondary assists'. If you don't play the final pass you don't get any credit. That's the rule...

Duly Noted. Note yet another mediocre game from Oscar.

Any particular reason you're singling out Oscar?

Any particular reason you're singling out Oscar?

 

Yeah he was poor.

I thought he was alright tonight, had a good first half but faded badly like the rest of the team in the second. We need to keep him away from set pieces though, he's awful at them. He rarely beats the first man and when he does they go well wide. He get's 1 in about 50 right.

Yeah he was poor.

As apposed to say Hazard? Or Remy? Or Ramires? Or Ivanovic or Courtois?

Not Oscar's best game but just find it strange that a fan feels the need to single out his performance immediately after a decent result considering generally the whole team was under par today.

Edited January 31, 201511 yr by ForeverCarefree

hehe... tbh, it goes back to our little exchange on the other thread fcf. For me, it's not surprising to see him play like that. Hopefully he'll improve, pick up his form, etc, etc.

Maybe I just expect more from the guy, with him being Brazil's number 10, and this general acceptance that he's a top player who is a starter for a club like Chelsea.

I don't feel he's really progressed all that much, that he should be doing more, being one of the technical, creative, offensive outlets - but like other's have mentioned, could be down to Jose's particular use of him.

Interesting to compare right-wingers today.

I thought Willian played well first-half but faded after that.

Navas is by no means a great player but he offered an attacking threat, he's far more direct, he runs in behind and he's prepared to run at the full-back.

Without Cesc and Costa we were totally reliant on one player yet again from a creative point of view, and that player, Hazard, was almost anonymous second-half with what looked like an injury.

Be nice if he didn't have to do it on his own.

In the first half tonight he was playing very central, almost like a number 10, and im pretty sure thats where Shakthar and Anzhi used him so effectively, and i must say he looked a peach there, was proberbly his best half in a chelsea shirt, and as stated elsewhere Oscar was very quiet again, perhaps with the Cuardrado signing Willian might be used in the central attacking role Oscar occupies and Juan will play on the right wing?

That won't happen for the simple reason that Oscar is a far more well rounded player than Willian while also being younger. The no. 10 position is too important to trust a guy who's only great attacking attribute is beating his man on the counter. That's the kind of limited ability that gets you the no. 10 role at a midtable club, not one of the best clubs in Europe.

That won't happen for the simple reason that Oscar is a far more well rounded player than Willian while also being younger. The no. 10 position is too important to trust a guy who's only great attacking attribute is beating his man on the counter. That's the kind of limited ability that gets you the no. 10 role at a midtable club, not one of the best clubs in Europe.

 

About Oscar being a far more well rounded player, that is simply not true. His finishing might be better but that's it. Willian is faster, a better dribbler, has a better touch and work rate (stamina), better strength and loses the ball far less in tight situations (although he too can improve in that regard). Both are decent passers, but I would give Willian the slight edge in long range passing. 

 

Oscar is likely to become the better player in the future, but at this point I don't think its certain by any means that he'll start over Willian alongside Hazard and Cuadrado.

I'm sure I read that last season he got 17 'secondary assists'. If you don't play the final pass you don't get any credit. That's the rule...

And how many had he got this year? Less than five.

He was good in the first half yesterday but hopefully Cuadrado can be a real match winner and take some of the pressure off of Eden.

And how many had he got this year? Less than five.

He was good in the first half yesterday but hopefully Cuadrado can be a real match winner and take some of the pressure off of Eden.

 

 

Adam is reffereing to secondary assists, you know like the 2 he got against Swansea, or the one against Newcastle.... modric also has a low assist and goal scoring record, still a hell of a player. 

 

Any way mute argument, you don't rate him, other see the value and what he offers the team while also achnolaging that he should chip in with more goals. 

 

As for DB comparing him and Navas the other day, Navas had about his best game for city and he hadn't been running himself in to the ground midweek 

Adam is reffereing to secondary assists, you know like the 2 he got against Swansea, or the one against Newcastle.... modric also has a low assist and goal scoring record, still a hell of a player.

Modric plays a different role in a different position for Real. Weird example to use.

As for his secondary assists/pre exists I knew exactly what he was referring to so not quite sure what you're chiming in with there.

Modric plays a different role in a different position for Real. Weird example to use.

As for his secondary assists/pre exists I knew exactly what he was referring to so not quite sure what you're chiming in with there.

 

 

So essentially you are saying that Willian has only had a hand in 5 goals this season, that he hasn't scored him self? 

 

 

And not entirely... true about Modric, at spuds he was often utilized further forwards and I know a fair few of them that actually got annoyed with him becuuase he didn't chip in with enough goals or assists, short shortsightedness if you ask me  and an inability to appriciate was he brought to the table. By the way Iniesta's goal scoring record isn't exactly something to write home about 

Edited February 1, 201511 yr by barak81

Willian has been below average, but I see absolutely no evidence to convince me that he will change and become better. Some might say that the competition for Cuadrado might spur him on to perform better. Can't see that happening - it's been between he and Schurrle all season for that right wing position, and when called upon she generally has shown nothing of great quality

So essentially you are saying that Willian has only had a hand in 5 goals this season, that he hasn't scored him self?

That before the Newcastle game he only had 3 pre-assists.

That's the stat I saw but if it's wrong then fine. My problem with Willian isn't just his lack of impact on front of goal, but that I've rarely, if ever, seen him step up and put the team on his back.

Hopefully Cuadrado had that killer instinct, that will to win.

Willian ain't Iniesta. Beyond him obviously being a much better player,I can think of at least two times he's popped up with massive goals ignoring the number of times hes carried his team.

That before the Newcastle game he only had 3 pre-assists.

That's the stat I saw but if it's wrong then fine. My problem with Willian isn't just his lack of impact on front of goal, but that I've rarely, if ever, seen him step up and put the team on his back.

Hopefully Cuadrado had that killer instinct, that will to win.

 

 

I think i'd rather workit our of from watching back a few of our games, but i'd be pretty confident it's higher then 5. 

 

It's not really your entire problem with Willian because thats a problem we all share, the diffidence is that many of us believe he offers the team a phenomenal ammount more, all have been listed before which make us a better team then any other option we have available. You have stated many times that you think those trates are overstated and a bit deceiving...

 

As for Cuadrado I can't comment on a player Iv'e not really seen. Just one more thing to think about, a load of wingers where mentioned with regards to being better options some way back, names such as navas and millner came up, at the time neither had a better goal scoring percentage then willian and in my opinion neither are as good a footballer as him either . 

 

For me in the prem right now, if you offered me any winger from outsiide our team I think I'd take sanchzes and Dimaria and maybe striling... and honestly can't think of another I'd have instead of Willian

I'd definitely take Sanchez over him. Maybe there's a dearth of decent and wingers in the league but would Willian get in the Bayern team? The Real Madrid team? Those will be the teams we'll want to play in May so let's judge ourselves by them, rather than Southampton and Liverpool.

I'd definitely take Sanchez over him. Maybe there's a dearth of decent and wingers in the league but would Willian get in the Bayern team? The Real Madrid team? Those will be the teams we'll want to play in May so let's judge ourselves by them, rather than Southampton and Liverpool.

 

 

Im also judging us against, Untied, Arsenal and Man City, all of which are supposed to be top top sides and from all 4 I can name two wingers that I would consider definitively better .

 

It's hard to compare us to the teams you listed, on average really Madrid wingers or AM cost in the region on 70 million, we can't afford that. Barca have messi who cam through the acadamy and then suarez and neymar who are actually strikers and also cost a pretty penny and major corruption in Neymar's case.

 

Bayarn have had the same two wingers for some time now and both our top top notch but robben was a bit of a timing buy for them as he was part of a failed real team and real being real shift players on for no reason. Also they have the advantage of pretty much cherry picking any player in the league they want, they will get them eventually. 

 

We have to be consistent and fair when comping to those teams, direct comparisons can't be made as its not a level playing field. 

 

 

I guess the question is, you have 30 million to spend on a winger now to replace Willian, who do you buy??

Edited February 1, 201511 yr by barak81

All the talk about Wilian and opinions on him so far can only really be significant if you know what the instructions are in the managers game plan.

 

Players at other clubs that play right wing better or more direct than Willian really don't (imo) have his workload, he isn't really a wide player, he could likely do the job of hugging the line and sprinting down the wing but that would make it difficult to get back and cover the space that a marauding Ivan has left, he drifts around mopping up and pressing all over the place and I don't think that's his natural game, I think it's the role the manager has asked him to play.

 

It's the same as Ivan doesn't take it in his head to do what he does, it's again Joses instructions and I'm not sure the "better" wingers Willian gets compared to could do the job as well as he does when Ivan does what he does.

 

Obviously we expect the new man to be more direct, get in more crosses and generally take some of the weight off of Hazard but Ithink that was the plan with Shurrle, Willian for the games Jose wants more pressing and tenacity and one other that has turned out not to be Salah or Shurrle for games where he feels a more creative threat on the right is the key.

 

Willian will likely play many more games where he has been playing but hopefully when a change is made it will involve enough of a threat going forward to negate the need for the harrying that Willian does so well, so far replacing him with a player offering little threat has left us a bit open.

 

I like Willian and he will be an option in Oscars place if Jose wants to rest him so there will be a few options if Cuadrado fits in as well as we all hope.

 

I'm fairly happy with Willian to date and think he, like Oscar is an important part of the team, I'd certainly have kept him ahead of Salah or Shurrle on what I've seen.

Edited February 1, 201511 yr by Chippy

I've said it before in another thread.  Off the top of my head there are 12 wingers who are definitely better than Willian.  Out of those twelve two are quite old now (Robben and Ribery - 31).  Nine are way too expensive or unavailable (Ronaldo, Bale, James, Isco, Neymar, Gotze, Di Maria, Sanchez, Stirling).  Reus is the only one who is relatively cheap and potentially available, however i reckon he's going to Madrid.  

 

After that who do you get to improve that right wing position.  Cuadrado is a good signing in that he is in the next tier of player and will add depth to Chelsea.  People complain about Willian but there just aren't that many wingers who are better and it would be difficult to get an upgrade.  Personally from what i've seen lately, Willian might actually be more suited to the 10 role and provide good competition for Oscar. 

 

P.s Amongst those 9 i mentioned earlier, Sanchez was the one that got away.  He was available and went for a decent price.

I've said it before in another thread.  Off the top of my head there are 12 wingers who are definitely better than Willian.  Out of those twelve two are quite old now (Robben and Ribery - 31).  Nine are way too expensive or unavailable (Ronaldo, Bale, James, Isco, Neymar, Gotze, Di Maria, Sanchez, Stirling).  Reus is the only one who is relatively cheap and potentially available, however i reckon he's going to Madrid.  

 

After that who do you get to improve that right wing position.  Cuadrado is a good signing in that he is in the next tier of player and will add depth to Chelsea.  People complain about Willian but there just aren't that many wingers who are better and it would be difficult to get an upgrade.  Personally from what i've seen lately, Willian might actually be more suited to the 10 role and provide good competition for Oscar. 

 

P.s Amongst those 9 i mentioned earlier, Sanchez was the one that got away.  He was available and went for a decent price.

 

Sergio, you're a very good poster and very knowledgable about football, I've kept my eye on your posts for a while and you should post more.

 

Some of those players you cited aren't really wingers, though they may be wide players. I don't regard Isco, James, Neymar and Gotze as wingers, not in the sense I understand the term.

 

I agree Cuadrado is not in the top bracket, but it's a sensible signing. Reus isn't coming, and even if he is, we can do business in the summer if we want to. Jose is never afraid to ship one out in order to accomodate the man he wants.

 

I wonder where De Bruyne ranks for you? I understand why Jose shipped him out, he wanted to make room in the squad and raise some funds, and I don't think he was particularly impressed with De Bruyne's attitude, as he wants players that are prepared to bide their time and fight for their place, and I think De Bruyne had grown impatient, perhaps understandably.

 

Anyway the Willian vs Cuadrado debate? Willian is a very consistent player, he has bad games, like Tottenham away, but he usually performs to a high standard, never to an exceptional one, and he's never a game-breaker. He's a 7 out of 10 for me, most weeks. Very technical and assured on the ball and I think this is where he'll have the edge over Cuadrado. Both seem to be very hard-working but I think Cuadrado is more individualistic, from the little I've seen. He's a different player to Willian to me and he's a player we badly need, he's available he's reasonably priced he's eligible for the CL and we desperately need some cover and quality on the flanks.

 

He may be more erratic but that's the price you sometimes pay for a bit more imagination, and I think he'll have a bit more spark about him than Willian.

 

Unlike Willian he's prepared to take on the full-back, something you hardly see Willian do. He can go either side, whereas Willian is far easier to defend against, because defenders always push him inside. I know some wingers, such as Robben, can only really go one way too, but Robben has an ability to hurt you that Willian lacks.

 

Hazard has that unpredictability too, he likes to cut inside but he can go outside too and Cuadrado has that. He's an out-and-out right-winger and that's what we need. We don't have one. He may not be as consistent as Willian but he can leave defenders for dust, with his pace, dribbling ability and trickery. In short, he's a more attacking player than Willian, maybe he doesn't link the play so well but he poses more of a threat.

 

Jose's getting him at the right age too, approaching his peak years. He's served his apprenticeship in Italy and now he's ready for the big-time. I'm confident Jose will have him fighting with every sinew for the cause, because he's bought that type of player, a player that has had to work hard to get himself this move, a player that will give everything he's got, a player that Jose likes.

 

I can't understand anyone that's not happy. Jose's weighed up his options, looked at the situation, and made his choice.

 

I'm confident he's made the right one.

I'm not in the group that thinks Willian shouldn't be near our team but I still think there are far more than 12, shall we say, wide players better than Willian.

Edited February 2, 201511 yr by RichardCFC

Willian is not a wide player, so that is not surprising. It would make more sense to look at how many AMs you would put above him.

 

Off the top of my head, 

 

Silva, Isco, Iniesta, James, Gotze, Hamsik, Mata, Ozil, Di Maria, Turan, Ramsey. Add Kroos, Fabregas and Rakitic if you want to include them as AMs

Willian is not a wide player, so that is not surprising. It would make more sense to look at how many AMs you would put above him.

Off the top of my head,

Silva, Isco, Iniesta, James, Gotze, Hamsik, Mata, Ozil, Di Maria, Turan, Ramsey. Add Kroos, Fabregas and Rakitic if you want to include them as AMs

Agreed he is probably better suited to a central position but again you can't make a comparison if he's not playing there week in week out... How many of those mentioned have to get up and down the wing like he does and provide as much cover for the full back?