As I've said in the past, I'm not sure why opinions on Willian are so polarising; he's not really a star (at least in this side) and he rarely defines games in the way Hazard, Cesc, Costa or even Matic do, but he's a solid professional and every successful team needs one of those; a relatively unheralded player who puts in the hard yards for the team's benefit. Barcelona from 2008-11 had Seydou Keita, Man Utd had Park Ji-Sung and even we had Paulo Ferreira. Not wonderful players by any means but players you know will put in a good shift whenever they play and set an example to the rest of the team in that regard.

He's has been playing a bit better lately that's all, but there's not been a massive difference, just a bit more willingness to take on his man, a little more inclination to try a killer pass. That being said, that slight improvement in performance might be crucial in a league where victory typically comes by a fine margin.

If he cost the same as park ji sung,or seydou keita, then no one would even question what he has produced to date. The argument comes because of the fact he cost £26m, and a few people expect more bang for their buck.

I think he is a good player to have in the squad, and although for reason some people believe a 26 year old can't improve, I actually think that he is getting better and better.

This is the 1st time in his career, he has had this level coaching, in World class facilities, with world class players, and the fierce competition within the club, and the league, will improve him as a player.

Similar to malouda who was never really prolific, I think willian could have a couple of seasons in his late 20's where things just click for him in front of goal.

It will be an interesting tussle for a starting spot with cuadrado, and perhaps oscar, because if he keeps playing as well as he did against villa, he could displace oscar as the 10.

If he cost the same as park ji sung,or seydou keita, then no one would even question what he has produced to date. The argument comes because of the fact he cost £26m, and a few people expect more bang for their buck.

I think he is a good player to have in the squad, and although for reason some people believe a 26 year old can't improve, I actually think that he is getting better and better.

This is the 1st time in his career, he has had this level coaching, in World class facilities, with world class players, and the fierce competition within the club, and the league, will improve him as a player.

Similar to malouda who was never really prolific, I think willian could have a couple of seasons in his late 20's where things just click for him in front of goal.

It will be an interesting tussle for a starting spot with cuadrado, and perhaps oscar, because if he keeps playing as well as he did against villa, he could displace oscar as the 10.

 

Yes, I have admitted that he was overpriced - but it doesn't really explain why some people seem to idolise him and others see him as being inadequate. You don't usually idolise 26 million pound solid pros after all.

 

...and yes, I can imagine him improving and hope he does. Improvement would be most welcome because at the moment he's solid without being a superstar. 

Edited February 9, 201511 yr by DaRick

One of my favourite players to watch and will only get better.

Oh and he scored the second at Anfield last season [emoji4]

If he cost the same as park ji sung,or seydou keita, then no one would even question what he has produced to date. The argument comes because of the fact he cost £26m, and a few people expect more bang for their buck.

 

 

I think I'm very guilty of judging him by his price tag and that's inevitable in an era of FFP where every penny has to count. If he was a £10 million player then you could view him as a place holder, or if he was maybe 3-4 years younger then you could maybe hope that he'd develop but the price and age he was bought at basically means you're banking on him being the finished article.

 

It's also not the first time I've seen him compared to Ji-Sung Park either. He was an average player with a good engine who cost £4 million and that's who Willian gets compared to? There was another attacking midfielder who signed for a Premier League club at the age of 25 for around £30 million just this season. 

So you're saying managers never get things wrong?

I think it's pretty factual that Willian doesn't have many goals or assists to his name, is it wrong pointing that out? Or is it wrong because the manager has selected him. That's just a lazy argument.

No, it's wrong to ignore what Willian contributes to the team as a unit.

This examination of players as individuals with no appreciation that ultimately they have to function as a component in something greater is a blight on football discourse- emblematic of a stats obsessed top trumps mentality.

Juan mata, for example, is hands down a better player than Willian. In our team Willian makes us a better side than mata did. THAT is what some people are unable to comprehend and it gets boring having to hold their hands week after week explaining why that is.

Jose makes errors. Every manager does. But he has never, and will never, persist with his mistakes. When he makes errors he doesn't repeat them. His signing of salah was an error. That's why he didn't play much and has now gone.

Frankly anyone who thinks he has made an error with Willian, a player vitally important to the structure and style of the team, who gets picked week in, week out fundamentally does not understand football beyond a superficial level in my view.

Edited February 9, 201511 yr by g3.7

It reads that both those arguing for and against Willian are misunderstanding what the other side of the argument are trying to say.

 

It's made this thread descend into an "us" and "them" kind of Mexican stand off. 

 

My simplistic summarizing of Willian, fantastically hard working player and does a lot of the dogs work that you would be hard pressed to find many attacking players willing to do. 

 

However in an attacking sense he could and probably should do better, if nothing else he doesn't score enough goals despite taking quite a lot of shots on goal (see most recent game against Villa). The ability is there to stretch and open up defenses but he doesn't do it often enough for my liking. If he could add that to his game, it would be fantastic but historically he hasn't shown that he can do it consistently. 

No, it's wrong to ignore what Willian contributes to the team as a unit.

This examination of players as individuals with no appreciation that ultimately they have to function as a component in something greater is a blight on football discourse- emblematic of a stats obsessed top trumps mentality.

Juan mata, for example, is hands down a better player than Willian. In our team Willian makes us a better side than mata did. THAT is what some people are unable to comprehend and it gets boring having to hold their hands week after week explaining why that is.

 

 

Mata was never right for us simply because he lacked the defensive workrate and pressing when not in possession of the ball that we require. I doubt many people who are saying that Willian isn't quite good enough on a consistent basis are arguing for Mata to return. His stats were good but he had the team very much built around him giving him a free role almost which you can't do if you want to challenge for the title.

 

Now you might think that you need to hold people's hands when explaining your view of Willian but I'd say that's massively patronising to the majority of Chelsea supporters who express their view that Willian simply hasn't done enough and is emblemetic of a 'chip-on-my shoulder from the safety of my keyboard' mentality. Deriding those that disagree with you with a superior attitude is very entertaining in a Sheldon Cooper-type way but I'm not sure it adds much to a discussion. Bazinga!

 

 

Frankly anyone who thinks he has made an error with Willian, a player vitally important to the structure and style of the team, who gets picked week in, week out fundamentally does not understand football beyond a superficial level in my view.

 

I think this is what's known as going all-in. 

 

Let's see. Made an error with Willian...that's a broad proclamation. Did he make an error picking him on Saturday? No.

 

Did he make an error playing him so much more than Schurrle? Possibly, although his health issues are obviously a factor but he undeniably has something that Willian doesn't and we probably didn't see enough of that in my view.

 

Did he make an error spending so much on him? Arguably yes.

 

Did he make an error signing a player who plays in the same position as competition? Hopefully not.

 

It's hard to accuse others of having a superficial view of the team unless you try and simplify their views to fit your own myopic analysis of the debate. It's far more nuanced than that, but maybe that's just indicative of modern society's obsession with trying to reduce any debate down to something that fits into 140 characters. 

 

Everyone is either a 'fanboy' or a 'hater with an agenda'. That's far easier than acknowledging the broad spectrum of views on a subject isn't it? Let's just say that anyone who disagrees with you has either a superficial view of football or plays too much FIFA. Much better.

 

 

 

 

Did he make an error playing him so much more than Schurrle? Possibly, although his health issues are obviously a factor but he undeniably has something that Willian doesn't and we probably didn't see enough of that in my view.

 

 

 

Just this because you harp on and on about it like it was the end of days...

 

1) No one know's what he had he hasn't said, it could have been flu which can take a good month to recover from

2) He said he recovered. - granted, id expect him to say that one way or another

3) Apparently he just put in a pretty decent performance for wolfsburg, playing on the left by the way.  Does that mean that his illness ceared up some time last week?

 

You seem completely unable to admit Jose just didn't fancy him, that at some point Jose lost his trust in Andre and made the decision that he wasn't going to fit long term. It's pretty obvisue when Jose looses his trust in you, and that had been clear for many to see for some time.

 

Of course you maintained before the sale that as soon as Andre was fit and ready we would probably see a return to first team and Willian back on the bench. Lets just be frank... you got it wrong, you where quite blinded by your dislike of Willian and so desperate for a reason that jose wasn't picking Andre you would hang your hat on anything but to admit that Jose just didn't rate him..

 

Lets push the dislike forward, this weekend Willian was the best player on the pitch, actually he has  been one of our most effective players since the turn of the year, regardless. You credit was.... Good game by willian hopefully this is the start of improved performance or words to that affect... Hold on a second... he's being playing bloody well for a while now, what do you mean the start of...?? But when Andre who was rank awful in scored a tap in in the league cup against derby you let us have it both barrels.... no mention of the fact he had been dross up to the moment he had scored... 

 

Then it finally happens we off load Andre… and it’s because No one will pay us that for Willian… now obviously you are some kind of football agent so you know the market and the prices like the back of your hand but.. but let’s just look a little deeper, Luiz, 50 million, KDB – 24? Andre 25 million, Mata 40 million… these are players barly in the first team, Luiz was probably the most regular…. And yet Willian who has been nailed on week in week out can’t raise around 25 – 30 million……. Like I say, I’m not football agent but in todays market I’m pretty sure a player like Willian goes for at least what we paid for him… the actual reason that he’s not being moved on is he  a big part of the reason we are top of the league.

Just this because you harp on and on about it like it was the end of days...

 

1) No one know's what he had he hasn't said, it could have been flu which can take a good month to recover from

2) He said he recovered. - granted, id expect him to say that one way or another

3) Apparently he just put in a pretty decent performance for wolfsburg, playing on the left by the way.  Does that mean that his illness ceared up some time last week?

 

 

Ridiculous last point. But just to make things simple for you, yes his illness cleared up overnight because that's how us human's work.

 

Or maybe certain illnesses have a long recovery period and even after the illness itself has gone it might take a while to get back to 100%. I'm really not trying to sound patronising but your comments make it seem like you have very little experience of the human body and illnesses.

 

 

You seem completely unable to admit Jose just didn't fancy him, that at some point Jose lost his trust in Andre and made the decision that he wasn't going to fit long term. It's pretty obvisue when Jose looses his trust in you, and that had been clear for many to see for some time.

 

 

I'd be comfortable admitting that if I knew it to be true. The illness simply throws up too many issues, but I also think that Schurrle didn't play to his full potential. When he got chances he seemed to snatch at them too much, perhaps trying too hard to impress.

 

Of course you maintained before the sale that as soon as Andre was fit and ready we would probably see a return to first team and Willian back on the bench. Lets just be frank... you got it wrong, you where quite blinded by your dislike of Willian and so desperate for a reason that jose wasn't picking Andre you would hang your hat on anything but to admit that Jose just didn't rate him..

 

 

Yes I got it wrong but you can f**k off with the comments about disliking Willian. I have nothing against him except I think we can do better in that position. All the sh*t about agendas is teen-Twitter-twaddle of the highest order.

 

 

 

Lets push the dislike forward, this weekend Willian was the best player on the pitch, actually he has  been one of our most effective players since the turn of the year, regardless. You credit was.... Good game by willian hopefully this is the start of improved performance or words to that affect... Hold on a second... he's being playing bloody well for a while now, what do you mean the start of...?? But when Andre who was rank awful in scored a tap in in the league cup against derby you let us have it both barrels.... no mention of the fact he had been dross up to the moment he had scored... 

 

 

Again, f**k off with the dislike comments. I actually quite like him as a person and I've sung his name umpteen times this season at matches. But after the Derby game I was very happy for Schurrle because I think he's a proper big-game player who gives us something that we were lacking. I've made no secret of my admiration for players who step up in tough spots and I've never seen that with Willian. That doesn't mean I don't like him and once again, anyone saying that can f**k right off.

 

 

Then it finally happens we off load Andre… and it’s because No one will pay us that for Willian… 

 

That's an oversimplification but not surprising. I said that the offer for Schurrle was too good to turn down. The fact that we would be unable to get a similar deal for Willian was a subsequent point but you're a bold-faced liar if you're actually saying that I didn't say the deal for Schurrle in-and-of itself was a tough proposition to turn down.

 

, Luiz, 50 million, KDB – 24? Andre 25 million, Mata 40 million… these are players barly in the first team, Luiz was probably the most regular…. And yet Willian who has been nailed on week in week out can’t raise around 25 – 30 million……. Like I say, I’m not football agent but in todays market I’m pretty sure a player like Willian goes for at least what we paid for him… the actual reason that he’s not being moved on is he  a big part of the reason we are top of the league.

 

Not to sound like a football agent but you haven't got a single one of those figures correct. 

 

Luiz went for less than that but the price was understandable from a marketing point of view for PSG. It was a gamble on their part and one which didn't pay off. I assume this doesn't need further elaboration.

 

De Bruyne went for about £16 million to a team in a league where he impress the year before.

 

Mata was a panic buy on United's part.

 

But if you can name a team in Europe who could afford Willian and would consider him at a price of around £30 million then I'm happy to hear suggestions. Think you're making far too much of what was a minor point that I made. 

 

 

the actual reason that he’s not being moved on is he  a big part of the reason we are top of the league.

 

The reason I think is because there's no value in the idea of moving him on when it wouldn't be financially prudent or make much footballing sense. 

 

I disagree that he's a big part of us being top of the league though. I think there's scope for improvement either from himself or from Cuadrado and for the sake of this club I hope it comes because whilst I think he's good enough for the Villas and Newcastles of this world, I worry about how he does against the top clubs in Europe. They're the teams I compare us to at the end of the day.

I'm really not trying to sound patronising but your comments make it seem like you have very little experience of the human body and illnesses

Now you've not been on this forum long and I'm sure you didn't mean any offence, but barak is actually part robot, part emperor penguin and his lack of experience of the human body is a very sensitive subject for him and we generally do our best not to mention it.

^ Now you've just gone and bloody mentioned it.

Excellent post Barak. Blue Daze, you make some valid points no doubt but it almost feels like you don't want to give a thought to what the other peraon is saying. Just as your's commands some thought, so do other's.

The whole Willian vs. Schurrle debate... I don't see any evidence that either Jose thought Schurrle was better or that he performed better in big games. Willian on the other hand has consistently been one of our best players in big games. This whole illness thing is clutching at straws. It is clear (from watching him) that he is less skillful than Willian and is technically inferior.

Excellent post Barak. Blue Daze, you make some valid points no doubt but it almost feels like you don't want to give a thought to what the other peraon is saying. Just as your's commands some thought, so do other's.

The whole Willian vs. Schurrle debate... I don't see any evidence that either Jose thought Schurrle was better or that he performed better in big games. Willian on the other hand has consistently been one of our best players in big games. This whole illness thing is clutching at straws. It is clear (from watching him) that he is less skillful than Willian and is technically inferior.

 

I actually think that Blue Daze is unfairly criticised and people often get personal (not in a particularly rude way, more like a patronising way) when countering his often well thought out responses.

 

Still love Willian though, sorry Blue Daze.

Edited February 9, 201511 yr by RichardCFC

Willians bang average I mean for the money spent i.e 30m pounds. If he were a player of 15m no one would even question his output but the fact is he's a f**king 30m pounds player and it's a lot of sum. For that amount people expect players who can create moments of magic and and can win games on their own for consistent basis. For 30m you can get players like Hazard, Sanchez, Reus.

 

That's the main complaint.

Willians bang average I mean for the money spent i.e 30m pounds. If he were a player of 15m no one would even question his output but the fact is he's a f**king 30m pounds player and it's a lot of sum. For that amount people expect players who can create moments of magic and and can win games on their own for consistent basis. For 30m you can get players like Hazard, Sanchez, Reus.

 

That's the main complaint.

I prefer to think of Willian as a 15mil player and credit that other 15mil as the price of sticking two fingers to Tottenham.  Well, 15 million less the cost of Willians airfare .  Well worth it. 

Willians bang average I mean for the money spent i.e 30m pounds. If he were a player of 15m no one would even question his output but the fact is he's a f**king 30m pounds player and it's a lot of sum. For that amount people expect players who can create moments of magic and and can win games on their own for consistent basis. For 30m you can get players like Hazard, Sanchez, Reus.

 

That's the main complaint.

 

Think this is where I'm at too. Someone said he was like Ji Sung Park and I think that's fair. Ferguson always liked his energy in big games to keep things tight and Willian does have that. He stops the other team from playing but he's rarely going to be a matchwinner. That's a perfectly valid component of your squad, but for £30 million you expect a bit more than energy and a good touch which is why I think we've gone for someone like Cuadrado who does have magic in his locker.

 

What I like about Willian is that as a squad option he can cover all 3 AM positions and not let you down. He'll work hard, he'll retain possession and he'll get the odd assist but I don't think he's ever going to be 'the man'. 

I prefer to think of Willian as a 15mil player and credit that other 15mil as the price of sticking two fingers to Tottenham.  Well, 15 million less the cost of Willians airfare .  Well worth it. 

 

It helps if you focus on the fact that 5 days later they bought Lamela and ignore the signing of Eriksen. 

 

Having said that, I don't know of many Spurs fans who give a f**k that we 'stole' Willian off them. It's a bizarre chant to be honest, although it's main strength is half of the lyrics are 'He Hates Tottenham!'

It helps if you focus on the fact that 5 days later they bought Lamela

 

Fun Fact: Willian has more goals than Lamela.

Edited February 9, 201511 yr by Stim

Think this is where I'm at too. Someone said he was like Ji Sung Park and I think that's fair. Ferguson always liked his energy in big games to keep things tight and Willian does have that. He stops the other team from playing but he's rarely going to be a matchwinner. That's a perfectly valid component of your squad, but for £30 million you expect a bit more than energy and a good touch which is why I think we've gone for someone like Cuadrado who does have magic in his locker.

 

What I like about Willian is that as a squad option he can cover all 3 AM positions and not let you down. He'll work hard, he'll retain possession and he'll get the odd assist but I don't think he's ever going to be 'the man'. 

Exactly.

Fun Fact: Willian has more goals than Lamela.

 

Over two seasons. 

 

Fun Fact 1: Lamela has 5 goals in 47 appearances, Willian has 7 in 70.

 

Fun Fact 2: This season they both have the same number of PL goals (1) and Lamela has 1 more (4) in all competitions than Willian (3).

 

Fun Fact 3: Lamela has more PL assists (4) than Willian (2)

 

Fun Fact 4: Lamela averages DOUBLE the number of tackles per game as Willian and QUADRUPLE the number of interceptions per game.

 

 

Conclusion

 

Facts/stats aren't fun and Lamela is sh*t and a waste of money at £30 million.

 

He hates Tottenham,

He hates Tottenham,

He hates Tottenham,

He hates Tottenham.

 

The sh*t from Spurs, they bought his flight.....

I am an away season ticket holder who has been to every game this season away from Stamford Bridge where I boycotted after being told to sit down and threatened to be evicted by a steward when being abused by a rival fan in the Shed Lower in 2009.

Along with 'Top Of The League' 'We're the only team in London to win the European Cup' the Willian song is favoured by us all not only because he chose us over Tottenham but by the way he gives 100 per cent every game, closes down defenders and wins the ball on countless occasions to spring us into attack and uses his close control to take out 3 players at a time to create space for Fabregas and Hazard to create chances.

Without question every one us us on away trips would have Willian as one of our top five performers this season, all he lacks is shooting accuracy, that goal at Norwich probably sent many into a false sense of security. He needs extra hours like Lampard used to on the training pitch and make no mistake his name will be cemented in our history forever.

To Jose he brings more to the table as a team player than Mata, Van Gaal is starting to see things clearer now too in that respect.

Negative just isn't in Willian's vocabulary so why so many negative points on this forum?

Facts/stats aren't fun and Lamela is sh*t and a waste of money at £30 million.

 

It's all in the delivery.

It's all in the delivery.

My original post about Lamela was actually mocking him and praising Eriksen.

Then you had to post a reply and I had a look at Lamela's stats. Now I'm depressed. Obviously they don't tell the whole story but considering he's still only 22 there seems to be scope for improvement.

Edited February 9, 201511 yr by Blue Daze

I am an away season ticket holder who has been to every game this season away from Stamford Bridge where I boycotted after being told to sit down and threatened to be evicted by a steward when being abused by a rival fan in the Shed Lower in 2009.

Along with 'Top Of The League' 'We're the only team in London to win the European Cup' the Willian song is favoured by us all not only because he chose us over Tottenham but by the way he gives 100 per cent every game, closes down defenders and wins the ball on countless occasions to spring us into attack and uses his close control to take out 3 players at a time to create space for Fabregas and Hazard to create chances.

Without question every one us us on away trips would have Willian as one of our top five performers this season, all he lacks is shooting accuracy, that goal at Norwich probably sent many into a false sense of security. He needs extra hours like Lampard used to on the training pitch and make no mistake his name will be cemented in our history forever.

To Jose he brings more to the table as a team player than Mata, Van Gaal is starting to see things clearer now too in that respect.

Negative just isn't in Willian's vocabulary so why so many negative points on this forum?

It's not just about goals, it's about creativity as well.

It is a bit pathetic that when someone criticises a player and gets accused of having some irrational hatred towards that player. There are no "Willian haters" or "Mikel haters", there are just people who don't rate these players, unless someone is truly abusive of a player, like the guy in the Salah thread. 

 

Blue Daze has made his reasons for not rating Willian clear, and if that's how he sees it then fair enough. I disagree with him but I'm not going to suggest that he hates Willian or that he doesn't understand football.