3 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Look back literally a page and there are suggestions for Rice to be the DM with two #8s. People are so desperate for Jorginho to go they are pretending Rice is a better player than he actually is.

He's a more physical and defensive player which is great, but we don't utilize Jorginho for that, we utilize his ability to lead transition effectively. It's always been Jorginho + one of Kante or Kovacic. So to "replace" Jorginho, we need someone that can do what he does and more. Declan Rice, for me, isn't it. If you want to see examples this WC of players leading transitions and are brilliant off the ball, look at Enzo Fernandez and Sofyan Amrabat. The former is a player I'd like to see partner Rice in a midfield base. 

 

Sconnie, I have a simple question that requires a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Do you think Jorginho is a good defender?

1 minute ago, just said:

Sconnie, I have a simple question that requires a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Do you think Jorginho is a good defender?

No. 

Just now, Sconnie Blue said:

No. 

Next simple question. 

Do you think he is a good attacker?

1 minute ago, just said:

Next simple question. 

Do you think he is a good attacker?

No. 

 

Thanks for this Sconnie. Third and final simple "yes" or "no" question.

Do you think a good "defensive" midfielder should be able to defend reasonably well?

2 minutes ago, just said:

Thanks for this Sconnie. Third and final simple "yes" or "no" question.

Do you think a good "defensive" midfielder should be able to defend reasonably well?

Yes. A "defensive midfielder' by trade should be able to defend reasonably well. 

Thanks Sconnie. I would have given exactly the same answers to all three questions.

2 minutes ago, just said:

Thanks Sconnie. I would have given exactly the same answers to all three questions.

No problem. On the topic of simple questions, I have one which also requires a Yes or No answer. 

Do you believe the deepest lying midfielder should be able to lead a build up and retain the ball against the best teams in the world?

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

No problem. On the topic of simple questions, I have one which also requires a Yes or No answer. 

Do you believe the deepest lying midfielder should be able to lead a build up and retain the ball against the best teams in the world?

No.

But like you I believe he should be able to defend well when needed.

4 minutes ago, just said:

No.

But like you I believe he should be able to defend well when needed.

So how do we compete against our rivals when the deepest midfielders in Rodri, Fabinho, Partey, and Casemiro, are all able to defend + lead a build up and retain the ball effeciently? 

 

8 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

So how do we compete against our rivals when the deepest midfielders in Rodri, Fabinho, Partey, and Casemiro, are all able to defend + lead a build up and retain the ball effeciently? 

 

That reminds me of when United fans use to try and argue with me Wan Bissaka was better than Reece because of the formers reputation for well timed slide tackles.

4 minutes ago, Argo said:

That reminds me of when United fans use to try and argue with me Wan Bissaka was better than Reece because of the formers reputation for well timed slide tackles.

I mean if you want a DM that can defend we can get that Alvarez bloke from Ajax who is utterly horrific on the ball and has a passing game that makes Jorginho look like Pirlo.

You only have to see the Napoli and Liverpool matches where his first touch has led to goals. 

Edited December 12, 20223 yr by Sconnie Blue

57 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

So how do we compete against our rivals when the deepest midfielders in Rodri, Fabinho, Partey, and Casemiro, are all able to defend + lead a build up and retain the ball effeciently? 

 

Define "leads a build up"? Is it transitioning defensive situations into attacking chances? Is it carrying the ball forwards at pace? Hitting consistent quick, accurate long balls? Dribbling past opponents?

All the players you have listed can do some of these things. Jorginho cannot. Not one.

As for retaining the ball. Yes, that's great. But it's about as useful as tits on a fish if it is mostly passive. Moving it over predominantly short distances. With hardly any speed, vision or forward incision. That's just possession for the sake of possession. Something Jorginho is good at.

But I digress. We have both agreed a "defensive" midfielder should be able to defend. The clue is in the name. Should be able to effectively screen the back line behind him. We have agreed Jorginho cannot do this well. Therefore, he shouldn't play there.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 20223 yr by just

8 minutes ago, just said:

Define "leads a build up"? Is it carrying the ball forwards at pace? Hitting consistent quick, accurate long balls? Dribbling past opponents?

All the players you have listed can do some of these things. Jorginho cannot. Not one.

As for retaining the ball. Yes, that's great. But it's about as useful as tits on a fish if it is mostly passive. Moving it over predominantly short distances. With hardly any speed, vision or forward incision. That's just possession for the sake of possession. Something Jorginho is good at.

But this has gone past Jorginho now, all of us pretty much agree we need a new player in that area, even Gol appears on board.

So it comes down to accessing the question, is Rice a more suitable player for our system than players we could potentially have or could have had in recent times, like Enzo, De Jong, Guimares, Tchouameni or even Kalvin Phillips?

Like I said on the previous page, the deeply ironic thing about this is if we weren't so obsessed with this romantic reunion with Rice we'd have likely replaced Jorginho already.

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

But this has gone past Jorginho now, all of us pretty much agree we need a new player in that area, even Gol appears on board.

So it comes down to accessing the question, is Rice a more suitable player for our system than players we could potentially have or could have had in recent times, like Enzo, De Jong, Guimares, Tchouameni or even Kalvin Phillips?

Like I said on the previous page, the deeply ironic thing about this is if we weren't so obsessed with this romantic reunion with Rice we'd have likely replaced Jorginho already.

For the record, when there were rumors of Lampard wanting Rice in January prior to getting sacked, I openly said in the Jorginho thread that the club should give Lampard what he wants be it Rice even. I was in the minority at the time.

I also openly said prior to Tchouaméni joining Real Madrid that we should go for him, adding that I was very much hoping that Frenkie De Jong comes to our team very recently and I honestly do think that Edson Alvarez would be a good player for us.

I have also openly said that I fully expect Jorginho to leave once his contract is done, I have never ever tried to argue that he should be given an extension.

Me not agreeing with those that don't understand just how good of a player Jorginho has been for us is a totally different subject altogether. People just chose to blame him for everything for no reason and that's not my problem.

21 minutes ago, Argo said:

But this has gone past Jorginho now, all of us pretty much agree we need a new player in that area, even Gol appears on board.

So it comes down to accessing the question, is Rice a more suitable player for our system than players we could potentially have or could have had in recent times, like Enzo, De Jong, Guimares, Tchouameni or even Kalvin Phillips?

Like I said on the previous page, the deeply ironic thing about this is if we weren't so obsessed with this romantic reunion with Rice we'd have likely replaced Jorginho already.

Fully on board with that Argo. I don't particularly rate Kalvin Phillips personally, I think Rice has much more to his game than Phillips.

 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I mean if you want a DM that can defend we can get that Alvarez bloke from Ajax who is utterly horrific on the ball and has a passing game that makes Jorginho look like Pirlo.

You only have to see the Napoli and Liverpool matches where his first touch has led to goals. 

Alvarez would do well in the PL, maybe not a star player but his profile fits more to this league in comparison to both Jorginho and Kovacic as he'll have a much easier time adapting to the league and to any default playstyle. Having some bad matches in Europe doesn't mean he's a bad player.

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

So how do we compete against our rivals when the deepest midfielders in Rodri, Fabinho, Partey, and Casemiro, are all able to defend + lead a build up and retain the ball effeciently? 

 

It's actually 2 different ideas that have been here, one is that Rice can play solo as the DM player and the other is that Rice doesn't need to be our anchor at all.

You are saying that Rice needs a partner in the pivot, I'm convinced that Rice alone won't make us any better at scoring goals or conceding less goals as our rebuilding needs at least two summer transfer windows.

We'll all end up wrong once Potter starts playing Rice as a wing-back though.

51 minutes ago, Argo said:

But this has gone past Jorginho now, all of us pretty much agree we need a new player in that area, even Gol appears on board.

So it comes down to accessing the question, is Rice a more suitable player for our system than players we could potentially have or could have had in recent times, like Enzo, De Jong, Guimares, Tchouameni or even Kalvin Phillips?

Like I said on the previous page, the deeply ironic thing about this is if we weren't so obsessed with this romantic reunion with Rice we'd have likely replaced Jorginho already.

I totally agree with that. We need a player to substitute Jorginho, but not a player that is a like for like with Jorgi. Ideally someone who is strong and good at defending, but is also capable to start the transition. Is Rice that player? I’m not sure, but of those you mention, only Enzo could be interested in coming. Alternatively, Rice could partner more technically gifted midfielders, as Sconnie suggests with Enzo, for example. Or maybe could work with Kova. In any case, I think that we need at least two midfielders.

Edited December 12, 20223 yr by RMH

10 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

No problem. On the topic of simple questions, I have one which also requires a Yes or No answer. 

Do you believe the deepest lying midfielder should be able to lead a build up and retain the ball against the best teams in the world?

No. 

Casemiro is horrible at building up under pressure. He has been starter for rm for years 

 

Edited December 13, 20223 yr by Bob stark

12 hours ago, just said:

Fully on board with that Argo. I don't particularly rate Kalvin Phillips personally, I think Rice has much more to his game than Phillips.

 

I think the more important question is what is our system?

why do we want to keep this system? 

 

23 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

why do we want to keep this system? 

What even is the system atm? If we are looking for a transition to 4-3-3 it's clear we need Rice or someone like him so i'm all for bringing him in. Don't think he joins if we miss out on Top 4 though so that could be a devestating blow. He's not going to come here to compete in the same European competition as West Ham with no guarantees of us even getting back to the Champions League any time soon.

10 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

What even is the system atm? If we are looking for a transition to 4-3-3 it's clear we need Rice or someone like him so i'm all for bringing him in. Don't think he joins if we miss out on Top 4 though so that could be a devestating blow. He's not going to come here to compete in the same European competition as West Ham with no guarantees of us even getting back to the Champions League any time soon.

Under Potter so far it is diamond chameleon system. 

 

3 hours ago, OriginalS said:

 Don't think he joins if we miss out on Top 4

Off the top of my head Kante, Kova, Jorginho, Pogba, Di Maria, Ibra, Casemiro, peak Auba, Ronaldinho (three times), Ribery, Yaya, Tevez, David Silva, Suarez all went to clubs without UCL.

We've by many accounts convinced Nkunku and got Gvardiol potentially interested despite UCL football being in jeopardy next season while another club likely to miss out have appeared to have convinced Bellingham and Enzo (gulp).

Frankly if Rice is that short sighted then I want him even less than I already do.

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It's actually 2 different ideas that have been here, one is that Rice can play solo as the DM player and the other is that Rice doesn't need to be our anchor at all.

You are saying that Rice needs a partner in the pivot, I'm convinced that Rice alone won't make us any better at scoring goals or conceding less goals as our rebuilding needs at least two summer transfer windows.

We'll all end up wrong once Potter starts playing Rice as a wing-back though.

Yeah it's evident our midfield needs surgery. Something I wanted back in 2020 but what's 3 years late? Jorginho isn't going to turn us into league title contenders and even at their best Kovacic and Kante are very limited going forward. 

Going to need 2-3 new quality CMs between January and in the summer. Honestly annoying reading the constant reports of attackers when our midfield is in a dire state. Liverpool are apparently in for both Enzo and Bellingham...

Edited December 13, 20223 yr by Sconnie Blue