Caught an interesting comment yesterday on England.

I thought Rice was struggling to bring the ball out of defence nearly always passing it back to the CBs.

One of the commentators added Henderson was brought in as he helps the others by being vocal as at times we looked  'skititish' in defence.

The only person I've noticed being vocal at SB is Jorginho.

 

On 30/11/2022 at 15:18, Gol15 said:

Maybe cause unlike West Ham we do have tons of possession and we struggle to break the defensive lines and Rice would have to adapt a lot more in comparison to the players we have had in the recent years.

If it's true that Kovacic was poor in his first season then Rice with his default playstyle might just struggle in the pivot, I have no doubt that Rice has already the experience to hide his weaknesses as much as possible but when it comes to our own buildup, doing that will be much more evident in comparison to how he can afford to position himself while playing for England.

I'm the one that responded to your formation where you did put Rice in front of Mount and Kovacic and while Kovacic will have to come deep in order to recieve the ball, Rice going forward while Mount also comes deep would be counter-productive and unnatural for us, if we are pressed Rice wouldn't be able to help out by dropping deeper and in case Rice does recieve the ball would he be able to put a better final pass instead of Mount or would he be able to run with the ball better than Kovacic? I doubt it.

We do need at least 2 DM players since Kante and Jorginho are leaving and since RLC is a poor backup. So even if we do sign Rice we need another player. And that other player is as a key signing as Rice would be if not even more.

I honestly don't care whether rice fit us but I don't understand how you discuss player fit without ever talking about his strength. 

And there is this crazy discussion that you need to be "technical" player to play in possession football. Haaland is not technical whatsoever, Kyle walker is not really a technically gifted player. Both are key player for city.

I even watched de paul played for Argentina. The guy is clearly not technical. If you ask him to get involve heavily in the build up and then you are screwed but if you ask him to screen you CB then everything is good. 

22 hours ago, Argo said:

Its quite the state of affairs where outrightly mocking a crucial part of a UCL win is considered fair game but criticising a West Ham United player is considered an agenda but I disgress.

Regarding the bolded bit that's not true, even i said he'll be decent if we dumb down our system. Problem is, that will in turn mean building a team with the consistency to fight City over 38 games will become even harder than it already is.

We are already playing 343. I don't know how you dumb down 343.

50 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

We are already playing 343. I don't know how you dumb down 343.

Cece possesion (even against lesser sides) and play on the counter.

On 30/11/2022 at 09:56, Argo said:

Regarding the bolded bit that's not true, even i said he'll be decent if we dumb down our system. Problem is, that will in turn mean building a team with the consistency to fight City over 38 games will become even harder than it already is.

I'm not sure if it was you who said that Rice would suit Arsenal or if it was someone else, but if he'd suit Arsenal, who are this season challenging City and playing good football, how can he not improve us? And Arsenal are not playing counterattack, as far as I've seen them.

2 minutes ago, RMH said:

I'm not sure if it was you who said that Rice would suit Arsenal or if it was someone else, but if he'd suit Arsenal, who are this season challenging City and playing good football, how can he not improve us? And Arsenal are not playing counterattack, as far as I've seen them.

I said he wouldn't (especially if it was Partey he was replacing). I said Liverpool he may do well as they are the outlier in terms of relying on their midfield in possesion.

Watching Enzo last night confirmed what I already knew but It really stuck out further how much more comfortable he was at progressing the ball between lines. I know people may say a DM's first job is to defend but when you are expected to have 60-70% most weeks then what they do then the reality is how good they are in possesion is crucial.

11 minutes ago, Argo said:

I said he wouldn't (especially if it was Partey he was replacing). I said Liverpool he may do well as they are the outlier in terms of relying on their midfield in possesion.

Watching Enzo last night confirmed what I already knew but It really stuck out further how much more comfortable he was at progressing the ball between lines. I know people may say a DM's first job is to defend but when you are expected to have 60-70% most weeks then what they do then the reality is how good they are in possesion is crucial.

Ok, my mistake then.

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I honestly don't care whether rice fit us but I don't understand how you discuss player fit without ever talking about his strength. 

And there is this crazy discussion that you need to be "technical" player to play in possession football. Haaland is not technical whatsoever, Kyle walker is not really a technically gifted player. Both are key player for city.

I even watched de paul played for Argentina. The guy is clearly not technical. If you ask him to get involve heavily in the build up and then you are screwed but if you ask him to screen you CB then everything is good. 

If you don't care then why does it matter how someone discusses to begin with?

Halland is a poacher for Man City, he's surrounded by technical players. Kyle Walker is a full-back and there is a reason why this particular Argentinian squad looks to be one of the weakest they have had in the last 20 years.

Rice doesn't need to be technical but if we pay 100m and he's playing like Bakayoko then there is nothing to talk about.

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Haaland is not technical whatsoever

Yep and despite all his goals and broken records there's every chance they're going to miss out on the title to Arsenal of all teams (after winning it back to back before him).

It's been pretty clear all season as a team they're below the borderline autopilot side we've seen the past two campaigns, it was (I guess rightly) ignored when he was scoring three hat tricks in a month but since his goals have (relatively speaking) dried up, City have lost ground.

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I even watched de paul played for Argentina. The guy is clearly not technical. If you ask him to get involve heavily in the build up and then you are screwed but if you ask him to screen you CB then everything is good. 

I'm glad you mention Argentina because it's absolutely no coincidence they suddenly have their best performance at the tournament when Enzo Fernandez is put the 'sitting' position.

You can tactically work around technically limited players in some positions even in a possesion based system, but the man infront of the back four isn't one of them.

On 30/11/2022 at 09:56, Argo said:

Its quite the state of affairs where outrightly mocking a crucial part of a UCL win is considered fair game but criticising a West Ham United player is considered an agenda but I disgress.

Regarding the bolded bit that's not true, even i said he'll be decent if we dumb down our system. Problem is, that will in turn mean building a team with the consistency to fight City over 38 games will become even harder than it already is.

Fair game? You, Sconne and Gol rightly call out anyone that says anything about Jorginho as an agenda the same way its being done about Rice on here.

Are you sure you're not a Liverpool fan with that victim mentality?

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Fair game? You, Sconne and Gol rightly call out anyone that says anything about Jorginho as an agenda the same way its being done about Rice on here.

Are you sure you're not a Liverpool fan with that victim mentality?

You have been trashtalking our own player for years now, how is that even comparable to not liking the idea of spending 100m on Rice? LOL look at yourself first before trying to call out others...

Edited December 1, 20223 yr by Gol15

4 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Fair game? You, Sconne and Gol rightly call out anyone that says anything about Jorginho as an agenda the same way its being done about Rice on here.

Are you sure you're not a Liverpool fan with that victim mentality?

I've constantly criticised Jorginho for years and wanted him gone/improved on for years. 

You, as well as others, suggested Rice should directly replace Jorginho, meaning the position he plays and the influence he provides will equal or better. My argument is that the data and the eye test suggests otherwise. 

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You have been trashtalking our own player for years now, how is that even comparable to not liking the idea of spending 100m on Rice? LOL look at yourself first before trying to call out others...

Do you have notifications turned on for the mention of Jorhinho's name? There's no way you're able to white knight this quickly otherwise.

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I've constantly criticised Jorginho for years and wanted him gone/improved on for years. 

You, as well as others, suggested Rice should directly replace Jorginho, meaning the position he plays and the influence he provides will equal or better. My argument is that the data and the eye test suggests otherwise. 

Apologies to lump you in with Gol then, i was just naming a couple of posters i could remember from the previous few weeks about that topic.

34 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Fair game? You, Sconne and Gol rightly call out anyone that says anything about Jorginho as an agenda the same way its being done about Rice on here.

Are you sure you're not a Liverpool fan with that victim mentality?

I've never had any issue with the notion he could be upgraded on and even agree with it.

I only started getting "involved" when he was being mocked and talked about like some sort of chancer even after a dominant UCL win (even Bosingwa got cut some slack after Munich and he was genuinely sh*t most of the rest of the time). I probably did a few times but I can't remember making a single post in the Jorginho thread during the Lampard era and I don't think i was particularly active on it in the Sarri era either.

As I shown with Chilwell I'll happily hold my hands up if proved wrong (although I was always more hopeful he would as my worries with him was more aggression in attack and his tendency to let things get very bad when off form which is a lot easier to "fix" than the worries I have with Rice coming into a possesion heavy system) and I'll be beyond delighted if I have actually called this wrong as I don't think I can handle another expensive stylistical mismatch after Lukaku, especially if the DM/DLP I think will be the best/generational one of the next era ends up at a rival.

43 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Do you have notifications turned on for the mention of Jorhinho's name? There's no way you're able to white knight this quickly otherwise.

Apologies to lump you in with Gol then, i was just naming a couple of posters i could remember from the previous few weeks about that topic.

No argument, try again.

PS. I was one of the few people that fully supported Lampard wanting Rice about 2 seasons ago prior to him getting sacked, you got absolutely nothing on me as usual.

20 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

No argument, try again.

PS. I was one of the few people that fully supported Lampard wanting Rice about 2 seasons ago prior to him getting sacked, you got absolutely nothing on me as usual.

You've missed the point again, well done.

The post was people jumping to the defence of Jorginho and calling it a agenda and not for Rice. I couldn't care less what your opinions were yesterday, nevermind 2 years ago. Try to stick to the topic being dicsused next time.

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You've missed the point again, well done.

The post was people jumping to the defence of Jorginho and calling it a agenda and not for Rice. I couldn't care less what your opinions were yesterday, nevermind 2 years ago. Try to stick to the topic being dicsused next time.

No I haven't missed anything, you actually don't get to call someone having an agenda after you kept a big one alive for so long, sorry but...

The best way to resolve this once and for all is for Declan "Bomba" Rice and Jorginho "ho, ho hoe" to settle it in the Octagon. UFC stylie. All in combat. Last man standing gets the job.

20 seconds later. We will have a result.

1 hour ago, just said:

The best way to resolve this once and for all is for Declan "Bomba" Rice and Jorginho "ho, ho hoe" to settle it in the Octagon. UFC stylie. All in combat. Last man standing gets the job.

20 seconds later. We will have a result.

I feel a better idea would be to just ask someone who's played with both.

 

19 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I've constantly criticised Jorginho for years and wanted him gone/improved on for years. 

You, as well as others, suggested Rice should directly replace Jorginho, meaning the position he plays and the influence he provides will equal or better. My argument is that the data and the eye test suggests otherwise. 

If you want a better player on the ball Enzo Fernandez will probably be better than jorgi. 

If you want a better player defensively, any proper dm will be better. 

Now what do you want from your dm ? 

 

I'm become more and more unconvinced he is the right one.

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

If you want a better player on the ball Enzo Fernandez will probably be better than jorgi. 

If you want a better player defensively, any proper dm will be better. 

Now what do you want from your dm ? 

 

If the plan is to sit deeper, play more direct and be content with 40% possession even I think Rice would be fine.

If we want to dominate the ball most weeks then technical (and tactical) excellence is an absolute minimum requirement for that role. 

Edited December 2, 20223 yr by Argo

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

If the plan is to sit deeper, play more direct and be content with 40% possession even I think Rice would be fine.

If we want to dominate the ball most weeks then technical (and tactical) excellence is an absolute minimum requirement for that role. 

Do you think that Xhaka or Partey are more technical than Rice? (Genuine question)

14 minutes ago, RMH said:

Do you think that Xhaka or Partey are more technical than Rice? (Genuine question)

Partey yes, I think he has fantastic dribbling and passing range. Unfortunately since he's stopped getting the injuries he's proved a gamechanging signing for Arsenal and is probably the one player they really can't afford to lose.

Xhaka is having a good season but I still feel he's a ticking time bomb and will likely be the first to be upgraded on.

15 hours ago, Argo said:

I feel a better idea would be to just ask someone who's played with both.

 

But how do you think the fight would go Argo? I think Rice would have to take the fight to him as they'd be a lot of sideways and backwards movement from Jorginho. In the clinch I could see Jorgi fighting dirty poking Rice in the eye with his superb pointing finger.