3 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

The absolute Pikachu shock on some faces when we don't go after Rice next year. 

It's evident his profile isn't translated towards a progressive system. 

This obsession with him because he supports Chelsea, Mount best mate and he played in Cobham.

Our fanbase show a WestHam captain more love than some of our players.

3 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

This obsession with him because he supports Chelsea, Mount best mate and he played in Cobham.

Our fanbase show a WestHam captain more love than some of our players.

He literally told the Matthew Harding stand to ‘f**k off’ after they beat us in 2019. 

Many fair points made in here. A couple of points to add:

- I think we're likely going to need two top class midfielders to replace Kante and Jorginho in the coming years, I fear for the club once Kante leaves, I think much of our quality relies on his ability to cover the pitch in both directions.

- I believe James will eventually move inside ala Kimmich which may mitigate this partially.

- I think overall runners and distributors work better in England than pure passers. The game is largely built up in the backline now and the role of the midfielder seems to be more about clever positoning and movement to break the lines with the ball and clever pressing without it.

- Rice and Bellingham are two good English options, Rice is more of a traditional holding player but seems to do well in the English system which is similar to our approach in recent years. In the end it depends on price. 

13 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

The absolute Pikachu shock on some faces when we don't go after Rice next year. 

It's evident his profile isn't translated towards a progressive system. 

What is this progressive system? 

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I think overall runners and distributors work better in England than pure passers. The game is largely built up in the backline now and the role of the midfielder seems to be more about clever positoning and movement to break the lines with the ball and clever pressing without it.

 

Hmm Thiago is doing fine for pool. Eriksen has been credited by many as the key reason why united has been better. Cesc was brilliant for us. 

I don't think it is about runner or passer. Like most it is about who do you have and what is your plan. 

 

 

 

 

On 21/09/2022 at 14:32, Argo said:

He's 'impressed' in a compact underdog system that duped Real Madrid into thinking Thomas Gravesen was good enough for them (likewise City/Lescott) and gave Tony Hibbert a PL career.

He impressed in an England team against world class players that made it the further than they ever usually get too. 

23 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Rice hasn't shown in any direct matchup against Jorginho that he's a better player at all (both in club and national teams) let alone a better passer or more intellingent and honestly a bigger goal threat really? You're either fully in love with Rice and have his picture on your forehead during pride parade or you're just fully clueless, if it's both I wouldn't be suprised. 

The irony of you talking about love of a player when you jump to Jorginho's defence over the slightest comment, laughable. 

11 hours ago, Bob stark said:

What is this progressive system? 

A system that looks to take the initiative in the match by dominating the ball and progressing further forward to the opposition box.

Declan Rice's best football came under a compact, reactionary system under Moyes and Southgate. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

He impressed in an England team against world class players that made it the further than they ever usually get too. 

If we're going down that route Kalvin Phillips looked light years ahead of him, especially in possesion.

8 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

 

The irony of you talking about love of a player when you jump to Jorginho's defence over the slightest comment, laughable. 

Laughable could be that you somehow believe that anything you ever said about Jorginho could be classified as "the slightest comment", you're really hating the guy to the fullest in every single comment for the past few years and then you come first to me implying that I'm trying to convince someone that Rice isn't good because of Jorginho even? Even though I never mentioned Jorginho to begin with, you're so hateful that I suggest that you should take a break or something, specially since you go as far with that comment as if I wasn't arguably the most hyped in regards when we were going after De Jong and Alvarez, you see basically most of your substance is just baseless ad-hominem that is very very far away from the reality.

But also at the bottom line, your own jumping in the defense of Rice is what exactly? Jumping to take dumb takes about Jorginho over and over again? You're the one that is laughable. When I talk about Rice or De Jong, I don't need to mention Jorginho at all, you on the other hand can't talk about Rice without trying to first and foremost push down Jorginho and that's your whole repertoire. RIP. 

Edited September 23, 20223 yr by Gol15

10 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

A system that looks to take the initiative in the match by dominating the ball and progressing further forward to the opposition box.

Declan Rice's best football came under a compact, reactionary system under Moyes and Southgate. 

 

 

So what you want is basically possession football. 

Rice will have 0 problems playing in possession football team. It comes down what you want him to do. If you want him to sit at the base making 1000 short passes per game then he is probably not your guy (I think you can coach him to do this but not ideal).  But why do you want him to do this though, get a Modric, a kroos, a Thiago or a cesc and let them do that while rice is sitting back and at times get forward. You can even drop rice as CB in possession. You have a gazillion option. 

Playing in possession football even in system as slow as pep system does not require you to be xavi and Iniesta, you can't be as bad as Bakayoko but you don't need to be xavi. 

I forget to add I assume by possession football you mean Pep's city 2021/2022 not 2022/2023 because in this current version of city, rice is probably better than Rodri. 

 

Edited September 23, 20223 yr by Bob stark

10 hours ago, Bob stark said:

So what you want is basically possession football. 

Rice will have 0 problems playing in possession football team. It comes down what you want him to do. If you want him to sit at the base making 1000 short passes per game then he is probably not your guy (I think you can coach him to do this but not ideal).  But why do you want him to do this though, get a Modric, a kroos, a Thiago or a cesc and let them do that while rice is sitting back and at times get forward. You can even drop rice as CB in possession. You have a gazillion option. 

Playing in possession football even in system as slow as pep system does not require you to be xavi and Iniesta, you can't be as bad as Bakayoko but you don't need to be xavi. 

I forget to add I assume by possession football you mean Pep's city 2021/2022 not 2022/2023 because in this current version of city, rice is probably better than Rodri. 

 

On what evidence? 

Rice isn't being asked to retain and progress the ball every match week at West Ham. You are taking a midfielder from a pragmatic system to one which would have Rice see and retain the ball far more than he's ever used to in his career. When has Rice ever been asked to retain and progress the ball against elite midfielders? He hasn't. His job is to sit deep, forgive possession, remain compact, and hit on the counter. 

As much as I criticize Jorginho, his technical quality was a huge part in why we literally walked circles around Real's midfield in 2021. There is virtually no way we replicate that with Rice. Unless you want to dumb down our approach and go back to the Conte era of football, I don't see how Rice can come in and be an upgrade on Jorginho. 

 

Edited September 23, 20223 yr by Sconnie Blue

I just heard he came out last night and said that England score loads of goals in training and that they’re going to be good at the World Cup because of that.

He's as delusional as Southgate, the thought of this guy being our record signing and next long term skipper....

55 minutes ago, Argo said:

I just heard he came out last night and said that England score loads of goals in training and that they’re going to be good at the World Cup because of that.

He's as delusional as Southgate, the thought of this guy being our record signing and next long term skipper....

England went to semi n final the last two tournament. 

4 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

England went to semi n final the last two tournament. 

Yep and i remember similar arguments being used to defend Ole, Mctominay, Wan Bissaka, Maguire etc when United finished 2nd and made a European final.

I fully expect Gareth to have his Ole vs Liverpool moment at the world cup, well another as he's already had one of them against Hungary.

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yep and i remember similar arguments being used to defend Ole, Mctominay, Wan Bissaka, Maguire etc when United finished 2nd and made a European final.

I fully expect Gareth to have his Ole vs Liverpool moment at the world cup, well another as he's already had one of them against Hungary.

Your argument make 0 sense. Ole finished 2nd and made European final. He did well. 

So why everything went south for ole last year. Honestly, it is so obvious. Heck I even predicted it and it got nothing to do with ole.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

Yep and i remember similar arguments being used to defend Ole, Mctominay, Wan Bissaka, Maguire etc when United finished 2nd and made a European final.

I fully expect Gareth to have his Ole vs Liverpool moment at the world cup, well another as he's already had one of them against Hungary.

I can actually see a Woy on the horizon at the WC

On 24/09/2022 at 14:43, Bob stark said:

England went to semi n final the last two tournament. 

And only really beat Germany.

Every time he faces a team with quality he loses. Context is important, yes he got there but he got there beating average teams.

On 24/09/2022 at 14:57, Bob stark said:

Your argument make 0 sense. Ole finished 2nd and made European final. He did well. 

So why everything went south for ole last year. Honestly, it is so obvious. Heck I even predicted it and it got nothing to do with ole.

In isolation maybe but it was so obvious he especially with those players weren't getting back to where they should be.

I'll give Southgate his dues for 2018 but Euro 2020 he f**ked up, me a random football fan could tell how frightened Saka looked in that game, to keep him out there was bad enough but to give him the 5th penalty was mindblowingly moronic management.

So so good last night for West Ham, everything starts with him.

Rice intercepting absolutely everything for England in an attacking system today but people on this forum still think he can’t do it lmao he’s the best available CDM in the world 

7 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Rice intercepting absolutely everything for England in an attacking system today but people on this forum still think he can’t do it lmao he’s the best available CDM in the world 

He's already joined the group of expensive signings that get i told you so's when they do the basics and he's not even here yet.

We’ve brought in all of these advisors and recruitment/scouting guru’s, but if next August both Liverpool and City snag superior footballers in Enzo Fernandes and Jude Bellingham, whilst we spend just as much for Declan Rice, then this will cement my confirmation that nothings really changed. 

Edited November 21, 20223 yr by Sconnie Blue

52 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

We’ve brought in all of these advisors and recruitment/scouting guru’s, but if next August both Liverpool and City snag superior footballers in Enzo Fernandes and Jude Bellingham, whilst we spend just as much for Declan Rice, then this will cement my confirmation that nothings really changed. 

In all honesty if we want to break transfer records, get flagships and make headlines, then the choice is to go all in for Jude. 

Bellingham would cost more than 100m and while he would be potentially worth it as he's only 19 and already looking like the best no matter in what group you put him, he won't have the ideal partner next to him but IMO Potter could even get away with pushing some academy player into the fire since Jude is just that good.

Rice would be a bit cheaper than Jude but still 100m so Potter would probably think that he has a very balanced central midfield but in reality he just replaced Jorginho and Kante with 1 player that cost more than them and in all honesty no end product will increase from having Rice and Kovacic together even if we switch to a 4-2-3-1.

I would go with the cheapest option, Fernandez isn't that much older than Jude, he's also just 21 and already amazing so for let's say 70m we could sign him and then even find him a partner as well for a total of let's say 140m. So maybe not the cheapest, if the second mystery player comes along but a better rebuild?

Edited November 21, 20223 yr by Gol15

If we are backing this sh*t manager get both.

10 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

We’ve brought in all of these advisors and recruitment/scouting guru’s, but if next August both Liverpool and City snag superior footballers in Enzo Fernandes and Jude Bellingham, whilst we spend just as much for Declan Rice, then this will cement my confirmation that nothings really changed. 

Rice and Bellingham aren't even close to the same profile of player so its a meaningless point. A holding mid to allow two numbers 8's to press is what we need, to replace J5. Bellingham would be signed for a 'box to box' role.