24 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Ahh yes, spending £200m on three young lads that have never played in a league with an intensity even close to the premier league will save us. 

Nkunku is the one likely to make a difference and even he has several large question marks above his head.

This obsession with PL proven is what led to us signing the likes of Torres over Aguero and thinking someone like Lukaku was a safer option than Luis Diaz (and continuing with the more fluid system). Ofcourse they'll be examples of it working but the main point is it's not the bullet proof strategy it's made out to be, especially when said players are coming into systems they have no track record in as those two did and Rice will.

And as I've said multiple times, if we're going to insist of sticking with HG/PL players than Kalvin Phillips was a lot safer a bet for our system due to his experience under Bielsa.

9 minutes ago, Argo said:

This obsession with PL proven is what led to us signing the likes of Torres over Aguero and thinking someone like Lukaku was a safer option than Luis Diaz (and continuing with the more fluid system). Ofcourse they'll be examples of it working but the main point is it's not the bullet proof strategy it's made out to be, especially when said players are coming into systems they have no track record in as those two did and Rice will.

And as I've said multiple times, if we're going to insist of sticking with HG/PL players than Kalvin Phillips was a lot safer a bet for our system due to his experience under Bielsa.

Torres in his prime was a much better striker than Aguero ever was. Worth the gamble if he regained his form. Injury had killed him, not really sure what this has to do with anything. 

Lukaku and Diaz aren't comparable. Ones a winger, ones a striker. We needed a striker at the time. 

We need a holding mid, Phillips isn't that. You're comparing apples with oranges a lot here.

Edited November 28, 20223 yr by RIP Mourinho

8 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Torres in his prime was a much better striker than Aguero ever was. 

Couldn't disagree more.

8 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Lukaku and Diaz aren't comparable. Ones a winger, ones a striker. We needed a striker at the time. 

Literally covered that part, we would have been a lot better off if we committed fully to a more fluid system instead of signing the athesis of our style of play at that point.

9 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

We need a holding mid, Phillips isn't that. You're comparing apples with oranges a lot here.

Yes he is, and unlike Rice he excels in the build up part of the game.

 

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/kalvin-phillips-leeds-united-yorkshire-pirlo-bielsa/

"Phillips is a defensive midfielder with a superb passing range and great tactical awareness. Most often used as a single pivot at the base of a midfield, he withdraws into deeper positions to assist the team in building possession in the defensive third. A player with impressive stamina, he is also capable of offering consistent movements across the pitch to create forward passing options and avoid being screened."

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Yes West Ham want more than 100 otherwise one of the top 6 team would have signed him by now. 

 

He's not even worth the price of Casemiro.

10 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Torres in his prime was a much better striker than Aguero ever was.

I'd take Aguero all day long and twice on match days ... he outscored Torres at the beginning of his career, in the "prime" of his career, AND at the end of his career.

Torres is for sure the better bodybuilder post football though 🙂 

Just now, Sexyfootball said:

I'd take Aguero all day long and twice on match days ... he outscored Torres at the beginning of his career, in the "prime" of his career, AND at the end of his career.

Torres is for sure the better bodybuilder post football though 🙂 

Aguero is among the best striker that have ever played in the PL. Easy pick.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Couldn't disagree more.

Literally covered that part, we would have been a lot better off if we committed fully to a more fluid system instead of signing the athesis of our style of play at that point.

Yes he is, and unlike Rice he excels in the build up part of the game.

 

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/kalvin-phillips-leeds-united-yorkshire-pirlo-bielsa/

"Phillips is a defensive midfielder with a superb passing range and great tactical awareness. Most often used as a single pivot at the base of a midfield, he withdraws into deeper positions to assist the team in building possession in the defensive third. A player with impressive stamina, he is also capable of offering consistent movements across the pitch to create forward passing options and avoid being screened."

Torres was the best number 9 on the planet in his prime, Aguero wasn't even as good as Suarez in his.

We had a 'fluid system' with Havertz as false 9. Doesn't work and Diaz wouldn't have helped with our scoring deficiencies. 

As much of a lone defensive mid as Kante is. Look at a Bielsa system and you'll understand. Zero positional play its just run and gun. 

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Aguero is among the best striker that have ever played in the PL. Easy pick.

Among them yes, falls into the top 5.

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Torres was the best number 9 on the planet in his prime, Aguero wasn't even as good as Suarez in his.

He wasn't even Spain's best striker.

He had outstanding athleticism and underrated strength but technically he was below Villa, Henry, Eto'o, Drogba etc hence why those three could still impact games when they lost their athletic qualities while Torres became one of the worst players in the PL.

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

 

We had a 'fluid system' with Havertz as false 9. Doesn't work and Diaz wouldn't have helped with our scoring deficiencies. 

Maybe, maybe not. But atleast it would have been somewhat fun to watch as opposed to the nightmare of being subjected to Mr first touch.

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

As much of a lone defensive mid as Kante is. Look at a Bielsa system and you'll understand. Zero positional play its just run and gun. 

Possibly, but it still doesn't change the fact we need our DM/DLP to be good on the ball and assist with playing out of the back, and he's much more equipped (unless we dumb down our system to Moyes ball).

Edited November 28, 20223 yr by Argo

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

He wasn't even Spain's best striker.

He had outstanding athleticism and underrated strength but technically he was below Villa, Henry, Eto'o, Drogba etc hence why those three could still impact games when they lost their athletic qualities while Torres became one of the worst players in the PL.

Maybe, maybe not. But atleast it would have been somewhat fun to watch as opposed to the nightmare of being subjected to Mr first touch.

Possibly, but it still doesn't change the fact we need our DM/DLP to be good on the ball and assist with playing out of the back, and he's much more equipped (unless we dumb down our system to Moyes ball).

He absolutely was Spain's best striker, they just had that Barca/Madrid clique in the national team. Form 07- early 2010 he was the Prem's best striker, hate to say it but he was better than Drogba until the Ancelotti season for Drogba. Eto'o wasn't even Milan's best striker and Henry was playing out wide at Barca. Agree he was dogsh*t after the injury but before that he was bullying the best CB's in world football for fun and scoring like it was going out of fashion for the time. 

Agree Lukaku was a terrible signing, just think Diaz was a poor choice to use as an example. 

Rice can play out from the back with two dynamic number 8's next to him. 

12 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

He absolutely was Spain's best striker, they just had that Barca/Madrid clique in the national team. Form 07- early 2010 he was the Prem's best striker, hate to say it but he was better than Drogba until the Ancelotti season for Drogba. Eto'o wasn't even Milan's best striker and Henry was playing out wide at Barca. Agree he was dogsh*t after the injury but before that he was bullying the best CB's in world football for fun and scoring like it was going out of fashion for the time. 

In Spain he always looked like an awkward fit even in his prime while Villa looked right at home in their system.

Also Rafa's Liverpool had serious problems breaking sh*thouse teams down in that era, in part because Torres simply didn't have the guile and craft when denied space.

Benitez had to tailor the system to his needs to get his maximum effectiveness, that alone puts him below the afore-mentioned in my last post.

17 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Rice can play out from the back with two dynamic number 8's next to him. 

Yet he's had a chance to prove that in this world cup and I constantly see him hiding behind opponents.

At one point in the USA game he literally left what felt like half a six a side pitch space worth of open grass in an area he should have been patrolling and making a passing option.

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

In Spain he always looked like an awkward fit even in his prime while Villa looked right at home in their system.

Also Rafa's Liverpool had serious problems breaking sh*thouse teams down in that era, in part because Torres simply didn't have the guile and craft when denied space.

Benitez had to tailor the system to his needs to get his maximum effectiveness, that alone puts him below the afore-mentioned in my last post.

Yet he's had a chance to prove that in this world cup and I constantly see him hiding behind opponents.

At one point in the USA game he literally left what felt like half a six a side pitch space worth of open grass in an area he should have been patrolling and making a passing option.

David Villa was amazing, I remember when the tiki-taka wasn't producing the winning goal he took it upon himself to solve some matches. Pretty sure the Spanish themselves would pick Villa over el Nino any day of the week.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Argo said:

 

 

Around 70m, meaning close to 60 is far more realistic than the initial 100m pricetag.

If I'm to guess, I would say Man United and Liverpool are those two clubs. And I wouldn't mind him signing for either of them. If it was Spurs then it would look like Conte is getting super backed which would be a problem but the status quo stays the same if he signs for Man United or Liverpool from our point of view, we just need to rebuild.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

If I'm to guess, I would say Man United and Liverpool are those two clubs. And I wouldn't mind him signing for either of them. If it was Spurs then it would look like Conte is getting super backed which would be a problem but the status quo stays the same if he signs for Man United or Liverpool from our point of view, we just need to rebuild.

I'm hearing Liverpool and Arsenal.

He could be a pretty decent signing for Liverpool as they are the outlier in terms of needing their midfield to be very good on the ball to compete but with Arsenal, let's just say I'll be delighted if he takes Partey's place in that team.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

I'm hearing Liverpool and Arsenal.

He could be a pretty decent signing for Liverpool as they are the outlier in terms of needing their midfield to be very good on the ball to compete but with Arsenal, let's just say I'll be delighted if he takes Partey's place in that team.

Reading he'd replace Xhaka.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

I'm hearing Liverpool and Arsenal.

He could be a pretty decent signing for Liverpool as they are the outlier in terms of needing their midfield to be very good on the ball to compete but with Arsenal, let's just say I'll be delighted if he takes Partey's place in that team.

I'm not sure, I believe that Arsenal could become stronger with Rice in a similar way as Spurs. If he goes to Liverpool for example, they would still play the same and that style stopped working for Klopp but Arsenal runs fast counters and no overthinking in possession...

I like him and would love him playing for us,but I understand that's just my opinion. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I'm not sure, I believe that Arsenal could become stronger with Rice in a similar way as Spurs. If he goes to Liverpool for example, they would still play the same and that style stopped working for Klopp but Arsenal runs fast counters and no overthinking in possession...

Rice-Partey pivot is very balanced. 

6 hours ago, Bluesince66 said:

I like him and would love him playing for us,but I understand that's just my opinion. 

I would definitely take him for 70m in today's market. We paid 63m for Cucurella. I don't think he is worth 100m+ but i would definitely be having him for the numbers quoted above.

1 hour ago, WhiteWall said:

I would definitely take him for 70m in today's market. We paid 63m for Cucurella. I don't think he is worth 100m+ but i would definitely be having him for the numbers quoted above.

The problem with that is we'll then possibly put any money we save on his transfer fee into his wage packet which will in turn make shifting him impossible if it doesn't work out.

It is strange that this thread never talk about what Rice is good at which is far more important that what he cannot do. Maybe it just doesn't suit people agenda. 😅😅

It is easy to tinker your team to hide player weaknesses. It happen all the time to every team. Liverpool is playing a rb who cannot defend. That sound crazy but does it matter? Nope, because Trent is one of the best deep creator in PL. 

And it is quite clear a lot of people here has never watched how rm build up with Casemiro because when I said I will put my dm high, most people think I played my dm as no 10.

We also have been hiding player weaknesses for a while now. Our best CB is Silva, the guy is amazing but clearly he is not comfortable going wide hence we have been playing back for a while now. 

Edited November 30, 20223 yr by Bob stark

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

It is strange that this thread never talk about what Rice is good at which is far more important that what he cannot do. Maybe it just doesn't suit people agenda. 😅😅

It is easy to tinker your team to hide player weaknesses. It happen all the time to every team. Liverpool is playing a rb who cannot defend. That sound crazy but does it matter? Nope, because Trent is one of the best deep creator in PL. 

And it is quite clear a lot of people here has never watched how rm build up with Casemiro because when I said I will put my dm high, most people think I played my dm as no 10.

We also have been hiding player weaknesses for a while now. Our best CB is Silva, the guy is amazing but clearly he is not comfortable going wide hence we have been playing back for a while now. 

Maybe cause unlike West Ham we do have tons of possession and we struggle to break the defensive lines and Rice would have to adapt a lot more in comparison to the players we have had in the recent years.

If it's true that Kovacic was poor in his first season then Rice with his default playstyle might just struggle in the pivot, I have no doubt that Rice has already the experience to hide his weaknesses as much as possible but when it comes to our own buildup, doing that will be much more evident in comparison to how he can afford to position himself while playing for England.

I'm the one that responded to your formation where you did put Rice in front of Mount and Kovacic and while Kovacic will have to come deep in order to recieve the ball, Rice going forward while Mount also comes deep would be counter-productive and unnatural for us, if we are pressed Rice wouldn't be able to help out by dropping deeper and in case Rice does recieve the ball would he be able to put a better final pass instead of Mount or would he be able to run with the ball better than Kovacic? I doubt it.

We do need at least 2 DM players since Kante and Jorginho are leaving and since RLC is a poor backup. So even if we do sign Rice we need another player. And that other player is as a key signing as Rice would be if not even more.

Edited November 30, 20223 yr by Gol15

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It is strange that this thread never talk about what Rice is good at which is far more important that what he cannot do. Maybe it just doesn't suit people agenda. 😅😅

 

Its quite the state of affairs where outrightly mocking a crucial part of a UCL win is considered fair game but criticising a West Ham United player is considered an agenda but I disgress.

Regarding the bolded bit that's not true, even i said he'll be decent if we dumb down our system. Problem is, that will in turn mean building a team with the consistency to fight City over 38 games will become even harder than it already is.