1 hour ago, WhiteWall said:

I agree Jim but thresholds and boundaries assessing the extent of severity of incidents is a natural result when every single player is effectively a cheat looking to gain any advantage they can. So if we have a situation where a defender holds a player from outside the box and the attackers gets inside the box before pitching himself to the floor, the ref then has a number of decisions to make.

We've all seen many incidents where attackers get penalties for being wrestled to the ground, yet the attacker has got as much of a hold on the defenders shirt as the other way about.

I think we all know that was a penalty but with the way all players manipulate and embellish situations I can see why some of these things are hard for refs. 

It is hard for refs - but this is why VAR needs to help them. In this case it was quite easy, and the only cheat in this incident was fofana. 

Was Fofana grabbing/holding the opposing player? Yes

Is Fofana allowed to grab/hold the opposing player? No

Did the ref implement the rules correctly? No

Given the ref didnt implement the rules, VAR should have intervened. 

On the issue of players making the most of it -  it should be irrelevent. The only thing that matters is has a foul occurred? It should'nt matter if the attacking player falls down, writhes around as if shot, stays on his feet to get into the box or or stays on his feet to try and shoot.... it is all irrelevent to the rules of the game. The refs need to start consistently implementing the rules - and not making them up as they go along, and if they miss something or get the rules wrong - then VAR must point it out.  

Just now, dkw said:

In that case Im more than happy with that though, leave it to the refs decision as it wasnt really a massive mitake.

Respectfully disagree. If that was a chelsea player being grabbed and pulled by an opposing defender, I would want a penalty. The rules do not allow for that to happen. it is therefore a foul, and therefore a (potentially gamechanging) penalty. 

Again - happy it was not given. But I would be fuming if it was the other way around, at a clearly incorrect and unjust decision.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Respectfully disagree. If that was a chelsea player being grabbed and pulled by an opposing defender, I would want a penalty. The rules do not allow for that to happen. it is therefore a foul, and therefore a (potentially gamechanging) penalty. 

Again - happy it was not given. But I would be fuming if it was the other way around, at a clearly incorrect and unjust decision.

I would be pissed off if we didnt get that, I agree. But also I would much rather have Refs decisions go than spend ages reviewing on VAR, which has now become a vehicle to find reasons not to give goals.

Refs make mistakes, the vast majority though make a hell of a lot less than the players/managers etc. Theres sh*t refs like Taylor who`s just garbage, but most are decent. The big problem is players spend 90+ minutes desperately trying to cheat them. 

Edited September 26, 20241 yr by dkw

37 minutes ago, dkw said:

I would be pissed off if we didnt get that, I agree. But also I would much rather have Refs decisions go than spend ages reviewing on VAR, which has now become a vehicle to find reasons not to give goals.

Refs make mistakes, the vast majority though make a hell of a lot less than the players/managers etc. Theres sh*t refs like Taylor who`s just garbage, but most are decent. The big problem is players spend 90+ minutes desperately trying to cheat them. 

Yeah - the implementation and time taken for decisions to be taken is a joke.

It should be all over in 30 seconds.  A potential foul that the ref has not.given. VAR Check. yep - confirmed it was a clear pull, which isnt allowed in the rules. The ref didnt give it, so he either missed the pull or made a clear error. There is no subjectivity. No grey area. Pulling is not allowed. It's a foul and a pen. All over in 30 seconds.  But instead the way it is implemented is so overly complicated - and they still get decisions wrong.

 

9 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I agree Jim but thresholds and boundaries assessing the extent of severity of incidents is a natural result when every single player is effectively a cheat looking to gain any advantage they can. So if we have a situation where a defender holds a player from outside the box and the attackers gets inside the box before pitching himself to the floor, the ref then has a number of decisions to make.

We've all seen many incidents where attackers get penalties for being wrestled to the ground, yet the attacker has got as much of a hold on the defenders shirt as the other way about.

I think we all know that was a penalty but with the way all players manipulate and embellish situations I can see why some of these things are hard for refs. 

 

So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

 

So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!

 

 

 

It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.

My first thought during the game was that he waited till he was in the box to drop to the floor. I agree its still a foul imo but maybe that's the point behind "threshold" from the panel.

15 hours ago, The Rising Sun said:

 

So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!

 

 

 

I don't think you can have a clear rule unless you want to put a rule saying you can only pull player for x seconds using whatever force. 😂😂😂

 

40 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I don't think you can have a clear rule unless you want to put a rule saying you can only pull player for x seconds using whatever force. 😂😂😂

 

There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 

15 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 

Not really, football is a contact sport. Everyone push, pull (attacker and defender). 

23 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 

This is a simple example. Both player are pushing and pulling, normal stuff

 

24 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 

There was as much pulling by the attacker as our player, both let go and play carried on. Its pretty much 50/50 so just carry on.

17 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.

If it's so obvious, why would the KMI Panel vote 3-2 in favour of a penalty being awarded, not 5-0? And why would it vote 4-1 in favour of not intervening?

I don't buy the 'unaware of the rules, corrupt or covering for others' as excuses. Far more likely is they have a better understanding of the rules than us. 

Bear in mind the KMI Panel comprises of former players and coaches, alongside PGMOL officials. It isn't just former refs trying to back their mates up. 

 

I feel the whole reason why we question it is because MOTD, Sky and BT keep highlighting contentious decisions and trying to paint things as black and white, when more often than not, they are grey. 

I think it was a foul on Summerville. I also think he went down too easily, and can see after multiple replays that it isn't black and white. That's what VAR is looking at now. Has the ref missed something obvious? No? Then no intervention needed. If the ref had given it on the pitch, I'm sure the pen would stand. 

 

I quite like the way they're doing it. The decision is more often than not being left to the one on the pitch, the one who is closest to it and has the best feel for the game. Remember when VAR was first released, everyone was yammering on about how decisions were being affected by some people hundreds of miles away looking at slow motion replays. 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Not really, football is a contact sport. Everyone push, pull (attacker and defender). 

Unfortunately, your opinion doesnt trump the facts. Yes, football is a contact sport - but pulling another player is not permitted within that. It is all set out in law 12: https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct 

Key aspects of Law 12 include: Direct Free Kicks: Awarded for fouls such as kicking, tripping, charging, striking, pushing, and, importantly, holding or pulling an opponent (this includes shirt-pulling). If committed in the penalty area by a defending player, a penalty kick is awarded.

Any form of pulling (such as pulling an opponent’s shirt or body) is a foul, as per the rules of the game. 

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Unfortunately, your opinion doesnt trump the facts. Yes, football is a contact sport - but pulling another player is not permitted within that. It is all set out in law 12: https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct 

Key aspects of Law 12 include: Direct Free Kicks: Awarded for fouls such as kicking, tripping, charging, striking, pushing, and, importantly, holding or pulling an opponent (this includes shirt-pulling). If committed in the penalty area by a defending player, a penalty kick is awarded.

Any form of pulling (such as pulling an opponent’s shirt or body) is a foul, as per the rules of the game. 

So it was a foul each then.

2 hours ago, Shweaves said:

If it's so obvious, why would the KMI Panel vote 3-2 in favour of a penalty being awarded, not 5-0? And why would it vote 4-1 in favour of not intervening?

I don't buy the 'unaware of the rules, corrupt or covering for others' as excuses. Far more likely is they have a better understanding of the rules than us. 

Bear in mind the KMI Panel comprises of former players and coaches, alongside PGMOL officials. It isn't just former refs trying to back their mates up. 

 

I feel the whole reason why we question it is because MOTD, Sky and BT keep highlighting contentious decisions and trying to paint things as black and white, when more often than not, they are grey. 

I think it was a foul on Summerville. I also think he went down too easily, and can see after multiple replays that it isn't black and white. That's what VAR is looking at now. Has the ref missed something obvious? No? Then no intervention needed. If the ref had given it on the pitch, I'm sure the pen would stand. 

 

I quite like the way they're doing it. The decision is more often than not being left to the one on the pitch, the one who is closest to it and has the best feel for the game. Remember when VAR was first released, everyone was yammering on about how decisions were being affected by some people hundreds of miles away looking at slow motion replays. 

I have no idea why these "former players and coaches" disagree. As I said, they are either unaware of the rules, blatently seek to go against them, or are covering the arses of others.

Luckily for us, the rules are published. They are not a secret. They are not ambiguous. They are black and white, and not grey.  See my post above which links to them.

The fact that summerville went down easily is irrelevent.  The "feel" of the game is irrelevent.  A foul is a foul, regardless of if the attacking players goes down or not. The game might be the nicest game ever, with zero fouls, but if a player then goes and headbutts another.- its a red card. 

A clear and obvious error was made. The ref either a) failed to implement the rules (a clear error) or b) didnt see the offence (a clear error). Therefore VAR must pick this up. 

Edited September 27, 20241 yr by nonotnowjim

1 minute ago, dkw said:

So it was a foul each then.

Then you give the foul to the one that happened first. 

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Then you give the foul to the one that happened first. 

You know that does not happen.

Just now, dkw said:

You know that does not happen.

Clearly - the refs are useless, incompetent and not doing their job (implementing the rules). VAR is here to help do that - but it isnt. 

10 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Not really, football is a contact sport. Everyone push, pull (attacker and defender). 

Pushing, pulling , grabbing, etc are contacts that are fouls.

Unless it's at a corner then it's allowed!

 

On 26/09/2024 at 16:50, nonotnowjim said:

It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.

We know that VAR actually saw the hair pull and knew it was a foul.

And the VAR ref admitted he let it go because the ref was a mate , and he didn't want to make the game any more difficult for him.

Corruption basically.

6 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Clearly - the refs are useless, incompetent and not doing their job (implementing the rules). VAR is here to help do that - but it isnt. 

You gotta remember we have a far better view of incidents than any referee on the pitch. I believe most of them ref the game honestly having to make decisions instantly with only one actual in game view of an incident.

But when I'm at a game, every ref's decision that goes against us is wrong!

 

5 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

You gotta remember we have a far better view of incidents than any referee on the pitch. I believe most of them ref the game honestly having to make decisions instantly with only one actual in game view of an incident.

But when I'm at a game, every ref's decision that goes against us is wrong!

 

Yep - which is why VAR is there to help. Or should be. Instead it seems mostly there to protect the refs dodgy decisions. Then these panels are then set up to protect the ref, and VARs dodgy decisions.

This one went for us. They usually dont though.

 

14 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Yep - which is why VAR is there to help. Or should be. Instead it seems mostly there to protect the refs dodgy decisions. Then these panels are then set up to protect the ref, and VARs dodgy decisions.

This one went for us. They usually dont though.

And the rules prevent VAR from intervening in 2nd yellows, even if it's clearly incorrect.

Or for diving outside the penalty box that VAR have clearly seen , but the ref hasn't..So if the free kick results in a goal, its ok. 

And I think we got the most penalties awarded to a team last season. Clearly Refs and VAR were correct each time!