Clear and Obvious ...I think not 

I've often thought they should train up specialist VAR referees who simply master the rules of the game. 

So much of refereeing traditionally has been about someone being 'good' at managing a game, strategically managing when a decision needs to be made on a foul, letting play go, deciding when a booking is needed to reign in a series of tackles etc. Of course they also need to know the rules, but it is seemingly more nuanced that black and white rules when you're on the pitch managing situations. 

The mistake is, these referees who are then on VAR are applying the same rationale. They are interpreting situations based on what they would do on the field and bringing in subjective decision making centred around their experience in the middle. Thats not what VAR should be. 

I would have a completely seperate set of referees responsible for operating VAR, referees who are not responsible or aware of how to manage a game situation and, more importantly, do not know the main ref or have reason to emphasise with him. 

This then leaves VAR as a means to identify areas where rules have been broken, which they can highlight to the onfield referee and allow them to make the decision. Which was supposedly how it was always meant to be. No doubt the on field ref will see himself as superior to the VAR as he'll be the only 'real' referee and therefore more empowered to use the evidence to make his own decision rather than just going with what VAR are suggesting. 

Conersations need to be made available on a live feed, seeing the replays they are seeing real time as with rugby. But, as with Rugby, the referee is more than empowered to make the final call, even if VAR have recommended a review. 

So Wolves just put forward a motion to scrap VAR. A vote is to be taken place, with 14 votes needed to knock the abomination out. I’m sure it wont go through, but maybe, just maybe we can celebrate scoring goals again!

 VAR needs a time limit, 30 seconds max if it takes longer to make a decision then it isn't CLEAR AND OBVIOUS. 

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

 VAR needs a time limit, 30 seconds max if it takes longer to make a decision then it isn't CLEAR AND OBVIOUS. 

Bang on,  3 minutes of them desperately hunting for a reason to disallow a goal is ridiculous. 

3 minutes ago, dkw said:

Bang on,  3 minutes of them desperately hunting for a reason to disallow a goal is ridiculous. 

I'd literally say they should only get 2-3 replays at full speed. 

And only one ref in the box. 

With the expectation that most decisions stay on field. 

20 minutes ago, Scott said:

 VAR needs a time limit, 30 seconds max if it takes longer to make a decision then it isn't CLEAR AND OBVIOUS. 

Yes, that would help. Still you cant celebrate though, because you have to wait for the check in the first place so for me - scrap the bloody thing

I dunno, it would be nice to celebrate goals again but then I’d f*cking hate it if Romero got away with that tackle.

53 minutes ago, dkw said:

Bang on,  3 minutes of them desperately hunting for a reason to disallow a goal is ridiculous. 

But if they did, tv/others would find a reason and say VAR should have seen it. 
 

My view is that VAR never seems as controversial in Europe. It’s only in the PL that it’s so controversial. It’s English refs.

Should be voted out of the game. Stupidity of the highest order must say.

So VAR faces a vote from PL clubs as to whether to kick it out of the game.

 

Has so much potential, but these refs and this organization just cannot use it properly.

 

Most importantly I want to go back to celebrating goals, and not waiting 5 minutes and hoping it counts.

 

Get rid.

Last night's refereeing was another example of how incompetent refs can ruin a potentially useful tool. I'd say get rid of the refs altogether and bring some AI element. James was stupid to do what he did, but if his was deemed violent conduct so was Lamptey's aggression on Mudryck, which the refs at VAR didn't think worth of sending off. Also, if Jackson's goal was a foul, then so it was Brentford's at the Bridge earlier this season (and it was more of a push than a nudge). They are so inconsistent and biased that they are embarrassing themselves and teams are starting to speak up.

21 minutes ago, RMH said:

Last night's refereeing was another example of how incompetent refs can ruin a potentially useful tool. I'd say get rid of the refs altogether and bring some AI element. James was stupid to do what he did, but if his was deemed violent conduct so was Lamptey's aggression on Mudryck, which the refs at VAR didn't think worth of sending off. Also, if Jackson's goal was a foul, then so it was Brentford's at the Bridge earlier this season (and it was more of a push than a nudge). They are so inconsistent and biased that they are embarrassing themselves and teams are starting to speak up.

But you do realise that all of the above, were decisions missed by the onfield ref too, right? James deserved a red, the ref didnt see it. Lamptey deserved a red, the ref didn't see it. Jacksons goal was disallowed on the pitch. The Ref gave us a penalty, that wasn't a penalty. Ref didn't give brighton a penalty, which could have been a penalty. If we had the ref on his own last night with no var, the decisions would have been worse than what they were!

It is impossible for 'VAR' to not work, all it is is a video replay system. In fact 'VAR' works perfectly, it shows the referees all of the replays they need to see and lets the onfield ref watch some back when needed. 

However, the officals designated as the referee using VAR are just as useless as the ones on the pitch. I've made my points previously on how I believe VAR officials should be non matchday refs and specially trained just for reffing via VAR and I stand by it. Every other sport has a much more effective use of video replays, POGMOL are just incompetant.

EDIT: You know what, reading your response again, you've just said the same as me. I think I need another coffee!

Edited May 16, 20242 yr by Niall1905

12 minutes ago, Niall1905 said:

But you do realise that all of the above, were decisions missed by the onfield ref too, right? James deserved a red, the ref didnt see it. Lamptey deserved a red, the ref didn't see it. Jacksons goal was disallowed on the pitch. The Ref gave us a penalty, that wasn't a penalty. Ref didn't give brighton a penalty, which could have been a penalty. If we had the ref on his own last night with no var, the decisions would have been worse than what they were!

It is impossible for 'VAR' to not work, all it is is a video replay system. In fact 'VAR' works perfectly, it shows the referees all of the replays they need to see and lets the onfield ref watch some back when needed. 

However, the officals designated as the referee using VAR are just as useless as the ones on the pitch. I've made my points previously on how I believe VAR officials should be non matchday refs and specially trained just for reffing via VAR and I stand by it. Every other sport has a much more effective use of video replays, POGMOL are just incompetant.

Yes, I do realise. But that there in field ref can be justified as just human error/incompetence while making split second decisions, and it is understandable even if annoying. VAR has all the technology and all the time in the world NOT to make those mistakes, and they still make them. That is bias, corruption, you name it. That's why I wrote get rid of the referees that sit in the VAR and bring in some AI. Otherwise we're ruining a tool with a lot of potential and we might as well go back to the old times of no VAR.

I'm also convinced that referees would referee differently if they didn't have VAR. They've stopped refereeing because they know that VAR will correct them. it's like having automatic correction on the mobile, you don't write properly because you expect that autocorrect will change your v to a b or whatever. You'd make more of an effort if you didn't have autocorrect. Anyway, that's my opinion.

EDIT: By the way, I like your option of having VAR specialised referees, preferably from an independent body that are not pals with the infield referees to avoid not making a call not to embarrass your mate...

Edited May 16, 20242 yr by RMH

While the officials aren't the best, football would be infinitely better without VAR. As many have said, you can't celebrate a goal properly anymore because some subjective foul or debatable offside might rule it out. I was sick to the back teeth of it from the beginning but I think the Coventry 4th goal being ruled out against Man Utd should have been breaking point for everyone. One of the greatest comebacks in English football history ruined because of a, let's face it, inconclusive offside decision by someone sitting miles away from the stadium.

Football is the biggest and best sport in the world and these governing bodies are implementing things that make it less enjoyable for the fans.

Put it this way, you will find very very few EFL fans clamouring for the use of VAR in those leagues. It's such a breath of fresh air being at a game when you know if a goal goes in then it's a goal.

People will give the 'it's not the technology, it's the officials' argument but we can have the best officials in the world and there will still be a delay within games, it's inevitable and that's why it has to be scrapped. 

10 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

While the officials aren't the best, football would be infinitely better without VAR. As many have said, you can't celebrate a goal properly anymore because some subjective foul or debatable offside might rule it out. I was sick to the back teeth of it from the beginning but I think the Coventry 4th goal being ruled out against Man Utd should have been breaking point for everyone. One of the greatest comebacks in English football history ruined because of a, let's face it, inconclusive offside decision by someone sitting miles away from the stadium.

Football is the biggest and best sport in the world and these governing bodies are implementing things that make it less enjoyable for the fans.

Put it this way, you will find very very few EFL fans clamouring for the use of VAR in those leagues. It's such a breath of fresh air being at a game when you know if a goal goes in then it's a goal.

People will give the 'it's not the technology, it's the officials' argument but we can have the best officials in the world and there will still be a delay within games, it's inevitable and that's why it has to be scrapped. 

100%
Goal line technology is great as it’s black or white and is done in an instant. If the rumoured technology for offside works similarly I wouldn’t mind that either in the future

What we have now is killing the game and yes - the english referees are awful at using it. But that is not an argument for keeping something that just doesn’t work. Its the fifth year I think, and they’re not getting better at it - if anything the opposite. Save football, get rid of video refereeing unless its fully automated and instant

I have defended VAR all along and I will defend technology coming into top football. My dream is we have AI officiating football. I hate the concept of human referee. In the future it will surely happen.

The refs get paid a fraction of what players make. They should get as much as it would take away one of the major excuses. They would be part of the super-star group as they are part of the match. Now they are this outlayer group that doesn't fit the match but they still have way too much to say how the game ends up unfolding. Many referees have an opinion about the game and they bring in their persona. That is not needed. We just need balanced calls. 

Now with VAR in the low paid sad bunch is even in more trouble. Their main objective seems to be to get out of the match unscathed. They make calls that make no sense and they don't know how to use VAR. It is pretty unbelievable still at this point. 

If clubs, players and refs think we should get rid of VAR we should. I just think we need to develop systems to make officiating the least visible part of the game. 

Ref is either super-pro or it is done with technology. What we have now is far from optimal.

 

I agree with the principle of VAR - and for me it isn't ambitious enough. I do not accept that Refs are able to decide a game by making decisions, which at times, are scandelous and indefensible.  I want 100% correct decisions, and the only way to get that is by having a professional, and consistent application of a VAR system.

The problem is that the officials implementing it are absolutely a) useless and b) inconsistent. In my mind, as I have said before, we need managers challenges.

We should:

- stop the current VAR review process, the back room team are far too often wrong and inconsistent.

- Instead we should have a challenge system. 3 challenges per half, per team - to be made by one of the 2 managers within a set time (30 seconds?)of any given incident.

- If a manager challenges any decision, then the Ref MUST go to a screen, watch the replay, and decide to uphold his initial decision or overturn. Whatever happens, he  MUST explain to both managers s why he is making his decision. This conversation would be broadcast, on mic, for the watching world to hear.

- By implementing this we would

    a) cut out the allegations of corruption from the VAR backroom officials;

    b) Put more power into the hands of the managers to challenge perceived unjust decisions

    c) Get live, and in real-time, justification of why decisions being made -

    d)  Have greater accountability and transparency from refs

    e) We get the added drama of challenges and watching the conversation happen.

    f) the only downside that I see, is that it would add to the length of the game. But to clarify - I don't care about the delay....I just want decisions to be correct.

 

Take the example of the Cucurella hair pull by Romero. We all saw it. The ref didnt give a foul, and Spurs scored. In this case, the Chelsea manager could have challenged, the ref would have been forced to look at the reply, and would have seen the clear hair pull. The ref would then have had to decide if pulling hair is allowed in the rules of the game. If he thinks it is, then he has to justify it, and explain his decision to the manager, being broadcast to the world..... the more likely decision would be that he would see that pulling hair is not allowed, and so therefore calls the foul, and ruled out the spurs goal.

Edited May 16, 20242 yr by nonotnowjim

1 hour ago, AndyDowsleftflank said:

100%
Goal line technology is great as it’s black or white and is done in an instant. If the rumoured technology for offside works similarly I wouldn’t mind that either in the future

What we have now is killing the game and yes - the english referees are awful at using it. But that is not an argument for keeping something that just doesn’t work. Its the fifth year I think, and they’re not getting better at it - if anything the opposite. Save football, get rid of video refereeing unless its fully automated and instant

Works very well in Europe. The PL is implementing it next season. Midway through the season for some reason.

2 hours ago, Niall1905 said:

But you do realise that all of the above, were decisions missed by the onfield ref too, right?

Not necessarily correct, its glaringly obvious that refs are now choosing to "miss" things (or at least not make dfecisions) as they know VAR will pick it up and make the decision for them.

 

Sky Sports poll which has had 65,000 votes so far. The clubs won't consult the fans because they know what the answer will be.

I think semi-automated offside will help big time, because offsides and the time it takes, the drawing of the lines is one of the things people dislike most.

It should have been brought in ages ago like in the Champions League.

Live tannoy of the conversations so that we can hear, especially for the match goers benefit.

Re-train the referees, I’m not even joking, as some of the decisions we have in the Premier League (International and UEFA club competitions are generally fine) are almost scandalous and ain’t even subjective in a lot of cases.

I honestly think VAR can work - offsides will be better soon, it just needs tweaking.

The whole PGMOL system is borderline corrupt IMO, Klopp, Arteta for example can get away with more or less anything whereas a Gary O’Neil will be charged and banned.

The standard of referees in this country is at rock bottom and there is no accountability at all.

3 hours ago, RMH said:

Yes, I do realise. But that there in field ref can be justified as just human error/incompetence while making split second decisions, and it is understandable even if annoying. VAR has all the technology and all the time in the world NOT to make those mistakes, and they still make them. That is bias, corruption, you name it. That's why I wrote get rid of the referees that sit in the VAR and bring in some AI. Otherwise we're ruining a tool with a lot of potential and we might as well go back to the old times of no VAR.

I'm also convinced that referees would referee differently if they didn't have VAR. They've stopped refereeing because they know that VAR will correct them. it's like having automatic correction on the mobile, you don't write properly because you expect that autocorrect will change your v to a b or whatever. You'd make more of an effort if you didn't have autocorrect. Anyway, that's my opinion.

EDIT: By the way, I like your option of having VAR specialised referees, preferably from an independent body that are not pals with the infield referees to avoid not making a call not to embarrass your mate...

That is true but it adds to the failings of VAR, because Howard Webb is on record saying he wants there to be a 'high bar for overturning on-field decisions'. In reality, a lot of these on-field decisions are non-decisions, so red cards and pens that are not given by the ref are also not given by VAR because they say there is 'not enough to overturn them', even though the ref has either missed the incident, got it wrong or just bottled it with a non-decision.

The people in charge of the technology in the Prem have proved they can not be trusted to use it consistently or responsibly.

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Not necessarily correct, its glaringly obvious that refs are now choosing to "miss" things (or at least not make dfecisions) as they know VAR will pick it up and make the decision for them.

Its a fair point and one that I hadn't considered. But the 2 (what should have been) reds were definitely missed by the ref and are perfect examples of why we need some sort of video review.

I suppose thats where the lines are blurred, VAR should simply be a way of notifying the ref "Did you see that hit his hand", "Did you see that elbow", "Did you see he got the ball there". If the ref has missed something, giving them the chance to review it with the new evidence.

38 minutes ago, Niall1905 said:

Its a fair point and one that I hadn't considered. But the 2 (what should have been) reds were definitely missed by the ref and are perfect examples of why we need some sort of video review.

I suppose thats where the lines are blurred, VAR should simply be a way of notifying the ref "Did you see that hit his hand", "Did you see that elbow", "Did you see he got the ball there". If the ref has missed something, giving them the chance to review it with the new evidence.

I was wondering about the missed stuff and how the linesman now interact with the ref, as in the past they could easily have seen it and instigated a card with the ref. They seem to now stay quiet as VAR takes over. So it VAR could again be detrimental in on pitch decisions being ignored.