VAR - Has a line been crossed?

[strider6004]

Liverpool claimed a conspiracy over the Diaz goal being ruled out for offside.

So the PGMOL decided to allow them to see the Audio script, which for me shows the shxt show VAR is for offside decision making, it is just too slow.

Basically they decided too late it was onside so did not stop the game and restart.

Now there are two points about this for me, VAR's decision making is one and then have Liverpool now set a precedent that any team might now insist on seeing the Audio transcript for VAR?

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12975648/var-audio-released-from-liverpools-disallowed-goal-by-luis-diaz-in-defeat-at-spurs#:~:text=The VAR audio from Luis,showed he was actually onside.

Fun and games ahead, I would get rid of VAR for off-sides and focus on just red card decisions. 

 

 

 

[Mod]

I heard the audio yesterday and wasn’t really surprised just how blasé the refs are. I completely expected it to sound the way it did.

I think with its release and maybe an investigation, it may prompt it to be ran better. If only for a few months, for it to quiet down and the same stuff going on again.

The Cucurella takedown was worse than this and would love for that audio to be released.

Klopp and Liverpool have every right to be pissed and just goes to show the corrupting power the refs have. You can’t even question their actions or you’ll get an FA charge.

[Sconnie Blue]

VAR crossed the line when it relegated Bournemouth. 

[Backbiter]

5 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

VAR crossed the line when it relegated Bournemouth. 

I think you're mixing up Bournemouth and Sheff U, if you're alluding to the failure of goalline technology at Villa Park the other year.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12008740/aston-villa-0-0-sheffield-united-visitors-denied-by-tech-error-on-premier-leagues-return#:~:text=The match officials did not,goalkeeper%2C defender%2C and goalpost.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Backbiter

[Backbiter]

1 hour ago, strider6004 said:

Liverpool claimed a conspiracy over the Diaz goal being ruled out for offside.

So the PGMOL decided to allow them to see the Audio script, which for me shows the shxt show VAR is for offside decision making, it is just too slow.

Basically they decided too late it was onside so did not stop the game and restart.

Now there are two points about this for me, VAR's decision making is one and then have Liverpool now set a precedent that any team might now insist on seeing the Audio transcript for VAR?

 

 

 

 

Why was it too late to stop the game when they realised their mistake? Play continues for a while after the ref has missed a handball or a red card offence, while the footage is checked. Eventually the VAR team tell the ref what they've found, he stops the game, and they go back to the offence (effectively rendering the intervening action irrelevant and consigning it to football oblivion). This is possible when the officials miss a handball or serious foul play, but the imbeciles in charge have somehow ruled that it's not been possible when the officials have missed a legitimate goal.

That makes zero sense, and I can't understand why more is not being made of it.

I remember raging when VAR decided LoCelso did not deserve a red for his stamp on Azpi, but moments later change their mind and decided it was a red card. But they allowed him to remain on the pitch, even though they knew he should have been sent off, and Spuds should have been down to 10 men.That was bonkers, and so is this.

 

[Backbiter]

Quote

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp wants the Premier League game against Tottenham to be replayed after Luis Diaz's goal was wrongly disallowed by the video assistant referee.

VAR Darren England and assistant Dan Cook did not overrule when Diaz was flagged offside at 0-0 on Saturday.

Liverpool lost 2-1 thanks to a 96th-minute own goal from Joel Matip.

"Something like this never happened, so that is why I think a replay is the right thing to do," said Klopp.

BBC Sport understands there is no prospect of the Premier League considering a replay and it is unclear whether there has been a formal request from Liverpool.

Looking forward to a replay of the 2005 CL 2nd leg and the 2009 CL 2nd leg...

[Sconnie Blue]

He's right. Let's replay the 2021 EFL cup while we are at it and have Liverpool begin the match with 10 men. 

[Jangz]

only self entitled Liverpool and deluded Klopp can ask for a replay.. worse errors have been made in football than this..Lamps goal in the Germany QF.. Hand of "God".. 

What a loser that wants to replay a minor EPL game, suck it up and move on cry babies..

[strider6004]

4 hours ago, Jangz said:

only self entitled Liverpool and deluded Klopp can ask for a replay.. worse errors have been made in football than this..Lamps goal in the Germany QF.. Hand of "God".. 

What a loser that wants to replay a minor EPL game, suck it up and move on cry babies..

Totally agree Klopp is showing a lack of judgement in requesting that, mistakes happen and the game goes on.

Yet if we can get a better system worth while getting audio conversations;

[Sconnie Blue]

 

[andy]

I think VAR has been generally a good, my gut feel is a lot more decisions have been correct than wrong. I personally don’t like the offside when there is a stray pubic hair, however they can’t really go back to attacker benefit of the doubt as it brings back in subjectivity 

I also think it was wrong of PGMOL to apologise to Liverpool and release the audio. I am involved in grass roots football and we are desperately trying to get the players, coaches and parents to accept mistakes will happen and it is never right to question the referee even if they are wrong. There is a huge issue getting youngsters into ref’ing because of the abuse they get. 
 

That should start at the top level of the game, refs will make mistakes, even video assisted referees. Therefore Klopp and Liverpool need to draw a line under this and pipe down. If they get what they want it could open the flood gates in a bad way 

Also like many have pointed out. We seen worse decisions every week why are Liverpool so special. 
 

[PloKoon13]

12 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 

 

Hmm... even trying to overlook my own bias, this doesn't sit right.

The argument is that the incorrect decision was caused by human error and process failure (which is also evidenced by the audio they released). What, therefore, is the logic of banning a single official from officiating the wronged team's fixtures? He didn't call the offside because he hates Liverpool.

Is it possible that this is a particularly cynical ploy to drown out 'the PGMOL are incompetent' narrative by stirring conspiracist fans into a fury of perceived injustice?

[Niall1905]

Yeah, for once, Liverpool fans acting as if they’re the only ones to be wronged is justified.

The only comparible situation is the goal line tech not working meaning the goal wasn’t given.

In no way do I think the match should be replayed but rival fans and clubs should be backing Liverpool standing up to PGMOL here. This isn’t a bad call. This is them getting the call right but providing the wrong information. It’s not a subjective decision that ended up being questioned, but a fact that lack of reasonable process prevented from being used.

We’ve been f**ked down the years, against that mob more than once. But this is an unprecedented level of f**k up.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Niall1905

[Backbiter]

2 hours ago, Niall1905 said:

Yeah, for once, Liverpool fans acting as if they’re the only ones to be wronged is justified.

The only comparible situation is the goal line tech not working meaning the goal wasn’t given.

In no way do I think the match should be replayed but rival fans and clubs should be backing Liverpool standing up to PGMOL here. This isn’t a bad call. This is them getting the call right but providing the wrong information. It’s not a subjective decision that ended up being questioned, but a fact that lack of reasonable process prevented from being used.

We’ve been f**ked down the years, against that mob more than once. But this is an unprecedented level of f**k up.

You think an accidental miscommunication is a worse scandal than a deliberate decision to screw us over to save the VAR's mate the trouble of having to look at a monitor?

I don't.

[strider6004]

The issue I have is football is meant to be a fast game, if you have to wait for several minutes to see 4 or 5 takes of different views of off-side then that is too long.

A couple of recent sports headlines:

IAN HERBERT: Jurgen Klopp is sounding like a man losing his grip on reality. What a breathtaking sense of entitlement and extraordinary lack of perspective to demand a replay.

CHRIS SUTTON: Sorry Jurgen, but this is utter tripe to demand a replay... plenty of teams have been wronged by diabolical decisions - it is football!

 

[dkw]

3 hours ago, Niall1905 said:

Yeah, for once, Liverpool fans acting as if they’re the only ones to be wronged is justified.

The only comparible situation is the goal line tech not working meaning the goal wasn’t given.

 

We`ve had 2 referees come out and admit to cheating us out of points, that is much much worse than anything Liverpool have had done to them. 

Loads of teams have been done by VAR, some worse than this one decision that went against the dippers, a  offside decision that was actually flagged by the linesman anyway. The only difference is the level of whining and moaning by a bunch of cretinous over indulged f**kwits, including the manager and bellends in the media.

[Niall1905]

1 hour ago, Backbiter said:

You think an accidental miscommunication is a worse scandal than a deliberate decision to screw us over to save the VAR's mate the trouble of having to look at a monitor?

I don't.

Didn't say anything was worse or better than anything. 

What I'm saying is Liverpool's current situation is only comparable to the Goal Line Technology not working and avoiding a goal being given. It's the only case where VAR officials have come to a decision but not communicated that to the on field refs. 

Dean being a twat and admitting that he was swayed during the game but not admitting to it until months later after he retired is completely different. Of course deliberately misleading is worse. Arguably its the clubs fault for not banging the drum loud enough when the comments came out. At least Liverpool have the balls to keep the pressure on.

But this is the whole point. Football fans are so obsessed with 'one upping' each other on who's been most hard done by that they ignore the fact that no one should be hard done by. Lets all argue over others fans being lucky and that they'd be worse of if x, y or z happened. PGMOL will love that, because although left in a bad light, they get left to carry on f**king up whilst we do nothing but laugh at Liverpool. 

Officiating in the country is rotten to the core. The same inept pricks that were awful in their day are now in control of deciding how new technology is used now. Webb, who has never used VAR, is in charge of telling refs how to use VAR. It all needs ripping out and starting again. There is a reason why the only person who knew what was going on and had control in that VAR room was a graduate only responsible for controlling the tech.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Niall1905

[Backbiter]

1 hour ago, Niall1905 said:

Didn't say anything was worse or better than anything. 

What I'm saying is Liverpool's current situation is only comparable to the Goal Line Technology not working and avoiding a goal being given. It's the only case where VAR officials have come to a decision but not communicated that to the on field refs. 

Dean being a twat and admitting that he was swayed during the game but not admitting to it until months later after he retired is completely different. Of course deliberately misleading is worse. Arguably its the clubs fault for not banging the drum loud enough when the comments came out. At least Liverpool have the balls to keep the pressure on.

But this is the whole point. Football fans are so obsessed with 'one upping' each other on who's been most hard done by that they ignore the fact that no one should be hard done by. Lets all argue over others fans being lucky and that they'd be worse of if x, y or z happened. PGMOL will love that, because although left in a bad light, they get left to carry on f**king up whilst we do nothing but laugh at Liverpool. 

Officiating in the country is rotten to the core. The same inept pricks that were awful in their day are now in control of deciding how new technology is used now. Webb, who has never used VAR, is in charge of telling refs how to use VAR. It all needs ripping out and starting again. There is a reason why the only person who knew what was going on and had control in that VAR room was a graduate only responsible for controlling the tech.

It isn't, though. We know that VAR officials have seen blatant offences but decided not alert the ref, because it's happened to us. And has no doubt happened on other occasions. The media has reacted as if this is the first time when it isn't.

[axman2526]

6 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

 

Hmm... even trying to overlook my own bias, this doesn't sit right.

The argument is that the incorrect decision was caused by human error and process failure (which is also evidenced by the audio they released). What, therefore, is the logic of banning a single official from officiating the wronged team's fixtures? He didn't call the offside because he hates Liverpool.

Is it possible that this is a particularly cynical ploy to drown out 'the PGMOL are incompetent' narrative by stirring conspiracist fans into a fury of perceived injustice?

Probably protecting the ref knowing if he steps foot near Anfield he will get mugged and his car jacked.

[Niall1905]

53 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

It isn't, though. We know that VAR officials have seen blatant offences but decided not alert the ref, because it's happened to us. And has no doubt happened on other occasions. The media has reacted as if this is the first time when it isn't.

It is though. 

I am talking about a failure in process, not a lack of integrity. 

Mike Dean and, as you say, many others have probably influenced games for a wide range of reasons. This has been happening long before VAR. Its a separate issue that needs addressing but it isn't the same as this. There is no way to nail a referee on doing that unless they openly admit it. 

For this offside, the process of VAR understanding the on field decision, checking it and relaying what they understand to be the correct decision to the referee completely failed. This is not a subjective decision that can be swayed by bias or backing up a friend. It is a pure fact that they botched up because they are bad at their job. It cannot be compared to any other decision, unless we know that categorically in that moment the referee was trying to give one decision and ended up giving the opposite.

The fact of the matter is, we were effected by something you cannot mitigate for. There is no way to ensure that type of decision doesnt happen again. Yes we should have kicked up a fuss, but there isn't really a way to stop it. But for the offside, VAR can introduce new processes that should be followed on each review and if a similar occurrence happens. No doubt Klopp is just looking for some favourable decisions further down the line but at least it might initiate some form of procedural change.

[Backbiter]

Yes, it's a failure of communication, and of process. Yes, both issues need to be addressed. For me, the simple solution to the confusion was to have alerted the ref once they realised, which was VERY quickly. As I've posted before, what stopped them? is the protocol that you can't stop the game when they identify something the officials have missed? Because I'd argue that's exactly what the ref does when the VAR team alert him to a handball he missed that needs to be reviewed, or a dangerous challenge the ref let go that warrants another look. This isn't difficult to address, and this whole issue is a hell of a lot less sinister than what has happened to us.