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tactics not working with the players being picked


ws6blue

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soap box time folks...................

last couple matches at home we have played against teams who have out manouvered our tactics - 4231 seems to be the way to block out the middle whilst breaking fast and pressing our back-line, so arese & scouse got that right

they also pressed way up the pitch and yes in both games our players cocked up (malouda & mikel)

our play is so predictable teams know we DO NOT have a creative midfielder, other than Mata who from the wing just flits in and out so when we have the ball they know we go short and slow then wide to a fullback attacking - like clockwork

we play 433 but the front 3, particularly the wide players arn't quick or direct enough

players are rotated so much, we never play the same team twice - so how/why was drogs picked ahead of nico or nando up front, why wasn't daniel started, why mikel and not miereles or romue - I could go on

avb says we are developng a new system & strategy so be patient - so what is it exactly - lose 4 out of 12 games is way off acceptable, and PL now no chance

I must be missing something cos I don't get it

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He is 100% right in what he says.

It does take time to develop what we are trying to achieve.

However. The points that you make are somewhat correct. People are getting frustrated at the selections the gaffa is making. As I think it is clear for us to see certain players are not good enough/ do not fit with the system/style we want to play.

I disagree completely that we are predictable. Or at least that we have been this season. Yesterday I agree we were, but we also adopted the old set up, which was slow patient and predictable.

At united , against the goners we were in fact extremely unpredictable in an attacking sense, unfortunately the defending and individual mistakes were criminal.

But I do think this guy is the right man to lead us where we want to go. Just give him time and have a little faith , I think january could tell us alot

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I agree completely with our tactics now working. We've been so effective with the 4-3-3 over the years because we've had the right kind of players for it, now we don't. A few years ago we had wingers such as Robben, Duff, J.Cole and SWP. They all had such great pace and agility, and then we'd have Drogba in the middle who is the best target man around. That is the best way to play a 4-3-3 formation, with attacking and fast wingers and a strong target man in the middle. Now, we don't have any natural wingers other than Malouda (who lacks so much pace now) and Mata (who I believe is best played behind the striker as he likes to have a free role around the pitch).

I've said it many times this season when we've been struggling and I'll say it again. We should play a 4-2-3-1. I know AVB used that tactic in the second half against United and Liverpool, both halves we played better than the first in. Why would this formation work better?

Well firstly Fernando Torres was so effective at Liverpool because he had Gerrard sitting behind him. Torres doesn't work at all well in a 4-3-3 (especially with our wingers), he's no way near the type of player Drogba is at all. With Mata sitting behind him, I think he'll see so much more of the ball. Lampard and Ramires/Meireles can sit in the middle as all of them are capable of defending and bombing forward. We all know what Lampard is capable of and Ramires is a typical box-to-box midfielder. When playing better teams, both central midfielders can sit back with Mata being the main outlet in attack in the centre with the two wingers and striker ahead of him. I do believe this is the best formation for our team, especially getting the best out of Torres. With that being said I think that we should get rid of Drogba and Mikel, and get rid of Anelka and Malouda (once we find better wingers).

What does everyone think?

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Surely the first half of the game yesterday went a certain way towards illustrating why we need to move on from the tactics of previous seasons. Surprisingly AVB opted for the sort of lineup that we could have expected under Carlo (with Mata added obviously). The result being that we showed the worst of last season's form with no creativity combined with the worst of this season with our defensive frailties. At least in the second half we looked much better going forward. Although we are clearly struggling with the defensive high line I also think our defense is showing signs of age. There were signs the last few seasons and especially in our bad moments last season. I'm not convinced that we wouldn't be struggling defensively even with AVB's tactics.

I notice Luiz has taken a lot of stick on the Chelsea forums yet he hasn't started that many games this season. Before Luiz it was Bossie getting the stick. In fact JT and Ash are about the only 2 consistent faces in the back 4 and they have been just as culpable as others.

In the short term AVB has 2 options:

1) Ditch the high line and play a system that suits the key players. I don't favor this option as we will inevitably lose some of our attacking options with this approach.

2) Stick with his High Line and try to find the best matched players in our squad for that system. As many have pointed out Pujol at Barca is no quicker than JT but does well in that system. However it is the midfield in front of him and even the strikers tracking back that make that system work. We need players that have the energy and commitment to make this system work. I can't help but think that the likes of Drogba and Malouda are not committed to redefining their roles at this stage of their careers. Sturridge and Torres should be starting ahead of them. Romeu needs to come in ahead of Mikel as he knows this system from his Barca career. Ramires is the on midfielder who can run and cover ground all day so he should stay in place. But Lamps maybe should be getting subbed more often or rested for games so that he can maintain the energy levels needed.

I think AVB can make his system work but he certainly needs to start picking his best time and not worrying about ruffling egos.

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I've actually thought that the concept of just having Cole bomb forward and have Ivan drop into the back three instead of Mikel and picking a more attacking midfield in his place. Ramires could certainly slide out a little wider on that side as he did with Brazil and Benfica.

So with the ball we'd look a bit more like this:

---------------Cech-------------------

------Ivan------Luiz------JT---------

----------------------------------------

Ramires-Meireles-Lampard-Cole

-----------------------------------------

--Danny------Torres-------Mata--

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I was thinking in terms of a true 3-5-2, not only when we had the ball. This would make it not so crucial that the FBs have to get back quickly on counters, as we'd have at least 1 extra CB. The middle midfield 3 could also have more flexibility in terms of who attacked and who stayed back.

Mata and Sturridge are not traditional wide men anyway, so the 3 up top tends to go to waste. With just two up top, Mata is given more license to roam inside nearer the striker, which he tends to like to do, and Bossa and Ash can bomb forward and provide width all they like.

Cheers,

Butch

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A 3-4-3 would be interesting with Luiz as libero and Bosingwa and Cole as wing-backs, although we'd need incredible discipline to keep out a team with one or three up front.

-----------------------------Cech

-------------Ivanovic------Luiz------Terry

Bosingwa------Ramires------Mikel-------Cole

-------------Sturridge---Anelka----Mata

Of course the other five players are entirely up for discussion, but that particular back five (plus Cech) would be very interesting to watch, even if it is just a pipe dream.

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AVB had a full summer, uninterrupted by any major tournament, to access the squad and make necessary changes. If certain players weren't good enough or didn't suit the system he was trying to implement,why haven't they been replaced, at least a few, here and there? I remember him insisting on several occasions on how the squad is still full of quality and there's no need for massive improvement. I wonder if he was toeing the party line or really believed that. There's a suspicion that our inability to get rid of the number of underperforming aging stars is directly due to their high wages which no other club understandably wants to take on. Failure to land a couple of players AVB wanted like Pastore, Perreira and Modric for one reason or another probably didn't help,either.

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I agree that Mata seems to be more dangerous when he's given license to roam. And in a 4-2-3-1 with him sitting behind Torres, he'd have that freedom. But then who do you put out wide at LAM and RAM?

I like the idea of having 2 of Lamps, Meireles, and Ramires in the deeper midfield spots, as they can take turns defending and making runs up field.

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AVB had a full summer, uninterrupted by any major tournament, to access the squad and make necessary changes. If certain players weren't good enough or didn't suit the system he was trying to implement,why haven't they been replaced, at least a few, here and there? I remember him insisting on several occasions on how the squad is still full of quality and there's no need for massive improvement. I wonder if he was toeing the party line or really believed that. There's a suspicion that our inability to get rid of the number of underperforming aging stars is directly due to their high wages which no other club understandably wants to take on. Failure to land a couple of players AVB wanted like Pastore, Perreira and Modric for one reason or another probably didn't help,either.

You answer your own question. He may have wanted to bring in certain players but failed to do so. The players he has are on top money and in no hurry to be shipped out. He has made some big mistakes in tactics and selection, and he has also been let down by his players, who continue to under-perform and make game-changing mistakes. Like Carlo he seems to lack faith in youth, so maybe the youngsters just aren't as good as we'd like to think. He (and Robbie dM) have a massive and very difficult job on their hands, but we've been the architects of our own downfall in the defeats v QPR, Arse and the Dippers.

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Well at the

I agree that Mata seems to be more dangerous when he's given license to roam. And in a 4-2-3-1 with him sitting behind Torres, he'd have that freedom. But then who do you put out wide at LAM and RAM?

I like the idea of having 2 of Lamps, Meireles, and Ramires in the deeper midfield spots, as they can take turns defending and making runs up field.

Well it would be Sturridge on the right (as he does at the moment) as I think he's doing a good job their to be honest. And at the moment it'll have to be Malouda/Anelka/Kalou on the left until we find a decent winger instead of them. Or play Mata on the left with Lampard on more of an attacking role right behind Torres. Don't know why AVB just doesn't try it from the start.

One thing I never understand with our previous managers is why they don't try new things? They have always seemed to stick to the same formation/tactic and when they seem to leave it til too late or when its not necessary.

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I think AVB has a straight choice to make, pick the players that suit his system and have the balls to drop the ones that dont. Or pick a system to suit the players he wants to pick.

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I have never been a fan of using fullbacks as our main source of attacking width. It leaves the defence short numbered and they are defenders by trade, they are not as good at attacking and crossing as proper wingers. That's what we need, a couple of really decent wingers to support the attack and leave the fullbacks back covering where they should be.

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I think AVB has a straight choice to make, pick the players that suit his system and have the balls to drop the ones that dont. Or pick a system to suit the players he wants to pick.

Couldnt have said it better myself. Systems are there to suit the players at your disposal,AVB has to adapt his to suit until he has the personnal to play exactly the way he is wanting to.

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This is just a general post, as I agree with many that sturridge has done very well in the rw position. However one of the main problems that he lacks is defensive capabiities. Avb's system requires him to track back etc. This is my only criticism of studdg.

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I think a 4-2-3-1 is the way to go from now untill January, thats the only way i can see us getting results.

Cech in goal obviously because thats a no brainer. Ivan at right back, with Luiz and Terry in the centre and Ashley left back. Then we have to continue with it and get some consistancy at the back or well will be forever conceding. The positives of having a deeper lieing two in midfeild are obvious because we have multiple players who can rotate those positions; Frank, Rami, Meireles, Mikel, Josh, Romeu, Essien (when fit). Then infront of the deeper 2 can be a 3 that just roam, move and rotate constantly. I would say mata would be the central one of the three with Danny and Anelka as the other two. That three is capable of playing in any of the three positions behind the striker. But in think bringing mata central will bring massive benifits for the team collectively and also for Torres, which brings me on to the striker. We play better with torres upfront, yes it can be frustrating watching him but i still maintain the beleif that its a matter of time before he explodes. He started the season very well, his movement was great and despite one or two mistakes and an open goal here or there his finishing was actually quite decent. The red card at swansea halted his progress and i think he has found it hard to get back into the rythm of things so far.

Boas should scrap his rotation policy for now. Its great being able to rotate when you have a squad brimming with confidence and everyone walks out onto the pitch thinking they are going to win ala Man City, but we dont have that luxury. Once we get some results under our belt and get a run going we can flirt with the thought of rotation but what we need right now is consistancy, something we havent shown so far. I wont name any names but some players simply arent up to it anymore so i think spending in january is a must. Modric is looking more and more like a 40m player every time i see us play.

If we can get him and a top class left winger then i think we will have a very capable and strong squad. I dream of this line up on our first game in Feb;

------------Cech

---Ivan-Luiz-Terry-Cole

--------Rami-Modric------

Sturridge-Mata-Di Maria(one can dream)

-----------Torres

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Though Lampard has scored goals this season , at times I tend to think he forgets this new tactical approach of AVB and still tries to pass to the wing and runs into the box looking to score. This is good when it happens right but when the forward players who are in a better position and are looking for the ball don't receive it on time , it makes me sick of seeing it .

Mata's best position is behind the striker or in the hole and not on the wing. He has to be creating things and not wait on the wing waiting for someone to pass him when he is in a good position .

If you want your wingbacks to provide the width , they should have a decent cross . People like Baines , Alves , Ramos etc., A.cole is good bombing forward but is it any good for us when he comes forward ? This is the good time to nurture betrand who has a good cross or Van Anholt who can cut inside and cause havoc.

I would like to see a 4-2-3-1 formation or a 4-3-1-2 formation with torres , studge as strikers and mata behind them.

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Tactics are one issue, but I think we'd be a little better off if we hadn't had damaging individual clangers from Cech, Bosingwa, Alex, Terry, Cole, Ivan, Mikel, Drogba, Torres, Sturridge, Malouda, Kalou (to name virtually the entire squad) that have cost us goals and points so far this season. AVB must be wondering what they hell his players are up to. Bad goals and dropped points have wrecked any consistency, cohesion and confidence we might have achieved by now.

EDIT: Forgot about Kalou in Valencia

Edited by Backbiter
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Tactics are one issue, but I think we'd be a little better off if we hadn't had damaging individual clangers from Cech, Bosingwa, Alex, Terry, Cole, Ivan, Mikel, Drogba, Torres, Sturridge, Malouda, Kalou (to name virtually the entire squad) that have cost us goals and points so far this season. AVB must be wondering what they hell his players are up to. Bad goals and dropped points have wrecked any consistency, cohesion and confidence we might have achieved by now.

EDIT: Forgot about Kalou in Valencia

I read an interesting article regarding our repeated individual errors:

http://www.weaintgotnohistory.com/2011/11/23/2580694/chelsea-tactical-problems

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That's a good article, but his solution isn't. It's perceptive that the individual errors are nothing to do with tactics, but the effect of them on our defending is. How anyone could look at our team and think it would be improved by Anelka and Bosingwa is hard to fathom.

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