Who has?

tancredi probably

Edited April 21, 201511 yr by launcher

I wasn't suggesting they play the same role but they typically occupy the same side/area of the pitch.

So buy Koke and expecting/hoping he'll emulate his Atletico form playing on the opposite side of the pitch seems a pretty big gamble for a player who would cost so much.

 

I agree that it's a risk, but then again that's true of any big money transfer. Chelsea fans know that better than most considering our history with Torres, Shevchenko, Veron, SWP, Sutton, etc...

 

I think one of Koke's biggest assets is his versatility; he can play more or less anywhere in midfield and his performance will suffer no detriment. Against Deportivo he played as the rightmost of the two advanced centre mids in a 4-3-3, and the space he occupied on the pitch reflected that:

 

(Atletico attacking right to left)

 

I think the biggest issue we would need to address regarding Koke would be attempting to fit him into a side which already has Fabregas.

I agree that it's a risk, but then again that's true of any big money transfer. Chelsea fans know that better than most considering our history with Torres, Shevchenko, Veron, SWP, Sutton, etc...

 

I think one of Koke's biggest assets is his versatility; he can play more or less anywhere in midfield and his performance will suffer no detriment. Against Deportivo he played as the rightmost of the two advanced centre mids in a 4-3-3, and the space he occupied on the pitch reflected that:

 

(Atletico attacking right to left)

 

I think the biggest issue we would need to address regarding Koke would be attempting to fit him into a side which already has Fabregas.

 

Not going to lie, a bunch of dots on a pitch doesn't really tell me anything... Except maybe he has no positional discipline? (I jest.. or do I?)

 

I'm not saying he CAN'T play in the middle or on the right but he's mostly deployed on the left and as I said in my reply to Xfaxtor we just seem to have a habit under Jose of playing our attacking mids in positions which don't necessarily play to their strengths. 

 

It's obviously a balancing act of getting the right blend of players to compliment each other and having that mix of flair and attacking players and those who can put in the pressing and defensive work and those who do a bit of both. 

 

Right now, I think it's the flair we lack at times, especially in attacking midfield with Hazard the only one who really regularly looks to (and successfully does) beat his man. 

I'd rather have Isco if we had the choice.

Not going to lie, a bunch of dots on a pitch doesn't really tell me anything... Except maybe he has no positional discipline? (I jest.. or do I?)

 

I'm not saying he CAN'T play in the middle or on the right but he's mostly deployed on the left and as I said in my reply to Xfaxtor we just seem to have a habit under Jose of playing our attacking mids in positions which don't necessarily play to their strengths. 

 

It's obviously a balancing act of getting the right blend of players to compliment each other and having that mix of flair and attacking players and those who can put in the pressing and defensive work and those who do a bit of both. 

 

Right now, I think it's the flair we lack at times, especially in attacking midfield with Hazard the only one who really regularly looks to (and successfully does) beat his man. 

 

The dots demonstrate the positions in which he received or won the ball, which are generally concentrated on the right, i.e. where he was stationed.

 

Koke acts as a conduit for possession for Atletico; he, generally speaking, sees more of the ball than any of their other players. This inherently means that his touches are going to be spread (to some extent) all over the park as he needs to move around to suit the positioning of his teammates at any given time, which also allows him quite a lot of positional versatility. Modric used to spend time out on the left for Tottenham, but he's obviously not a Duff or a Bale; his role is distribution, i.e. that of a passing midfielder. Again, Koke is versatile, it's the role rather than the position which is important, and he has enough defensive nous for it not to be an issue off the ball, where the position you are playing is more set in stone.

 

I think our attacking mids are more or less where they should be. The only possible exception is Willian, but I think we are stronger with him on the right than in his natural #10 role than we would be if we benched Oscar and started Cuadrado (probably) on the right.

Mata is clearly at his best behind the striker, but even at Man Utd they haven't been willing to sacrifice the defensive solidity centrally to incorporate him; Mata is incredibly talented but really needs a team to be built around him. Schurrle also has been sacrificed because José preferred somebody else in his preferred role (seemingly the left), but I am sure there is nobody who thinks we should have dislodged Hazard to fit him in.

 

I do agree that Koke isn't specifically what we need to improve the team, but I rate him very highly and would be sad to see him go elsewhere (admittedly 'Saha to Man Utd' logic). I think he would ultimately be Fabregas' successor and would be a key part of the starting XI for years to come; in the meantime he would be an excellent alternative (possibly even an upgrade) to both him and Oscar when either one of them is off form.

However, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'flair'; Koke and Modric have flair, Fabregas has flair, but you will rarely see any of them beat their man. Do you mean a right-sided analogue to Hazard who will be more effective in getting behind the defence than Willian? A Robben-style player?

The dots demonstrate the positions in which he received or won the ball, which are generally concentrated on the right, i.e. where he was stationed.

 

Oh I know what the dots represent but there is little context to them. Like I said they can easily be viewed as having a lack of positional discipline as they can for showing how versatile a player is. I just don't think it proves or disproves anything as a piece of information on its own. 

 

Koke acts as a conduit for possession for Atletico; he, generally speaking, sees more of the ball than any of their other players. This inherently means that his touches are going to be spread (to some extent) all over the park as he needs to move around to suit the positioning of his teammates at any given time, which also allows him quite a lot of positional versatility. Modric used to spend time out on the left for Tottenham, but he's obviously not a Duff or a Bale; his role is distribution, i.e. that of a passing midfielder. Again, Koke is versatile, it's the role rather than the position which is important, and he has enough defensive nous for it not to be an issue off the ball, where the position you are playing is more set in stone.

 

See this sounds great but (and granted you've already touched on this) we already have Fabregas as the player gets the ball a lot, moves around keeps play moving etc. What we don't want is a situation of too many cooks, where we've got lots of players moving around, passing the ball from left to right, opening up spaces but then no one actually getting in behind the defences. That's a problem we've had already with the likes of Willian and Fabregas liking the ball to feet rather than running beyond their man (something I thought Schurrle offered us). 

 

I think our attacking mids are more or less where they should be. The only possible exception is Willian, but I think we are stronger with him on the right than in his natural #10 role than we would be if we benched Oscar and started Cuadrado (probably) on the right.

Mata is clearly at his best behind the striker, but even at Man Utd they haven't been willing to sacrifice the defensive solidity centrally to incorporate him; Mata is incredibly talented but really needs a team to be built around him. Schurrle also has been sacrificed because José preferred somebody else in his preferred role (seemingly the left), but I am sure there is nobody who thinks we should have dislodged Hazard to fit him in.

 

The current attacking mids are about right but we've gone through Mata, KDB, Schurrle and Salah in 2 years to get to this point already and the jury is still very much out on Cuadrado and what exactly it is he does and offers the team.

 

My (possibly slightly laboured point)  is that you bring in Koke and does it potentially upset the balance of the side and what the roles are some of those already in the team? 

 

However, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'flair'; Koke and Modric have flair, Fabregas has flair, but you will rarely see any of them beat their man. Do you mean a right-sided analogue to Hazard who will be more effective in getting behind the defence than Willian? A Robben-style player?

 

Flair was probably the wrong word to use, what I probably should have said was direct on reflection. 

 

A Robben style player is basically exactly what I want. The sort of winger who just basically plays in style that says "don't worry lads, I've got this" and just relentless runs at defences at full tilt for 90 minutes. Gareth Bale would be the absolute ideal but that's extremely unlikely to happen. 

 

I'm not really up on football outside of the Premier League so I can't really offer names but that's the sort of player I think we should be targeting. 

Edited April 21, 201511 yr by ForeverCarefree

I agree with FC.

 

If we're spending that much money then it has to be a clear upgrade on a position we're struggling in and I don't think he's that. I think he's a good player and he'll provide depth and flexibility, but surely there are cheaper options who do exactly that.

 

It's about balance for me. We have a fantastic midfield 3 who compliment each other beautifully and what they need is reinforcements. Now that can be a transfer alongside a promotion from within but for the money be spoken about is he a real gamechanger? 

 

We have real depth issues and we also need to look seriously at finding JT's long-term replacement, but I'd really love someone who could compliment Hazard on the right-wing. That to me is what takes us to the next-level.

Koke would be a clear upgrade on Oscar though in my opinion. We could use both him and Bale to be honest. Koke would make us better as a team while providing depth and quality in several positions, while Bale would give us a cutting edge. I'm just not sure Bale is a very realistic option and I'm inclined to give Cuadrado a chance next season. 

Koke would be a clear upgrade on Oscar though in my opinion. We could use both him and Bale to be honest. Koke would make us better as a team while providing depth and quality in several positions, while Bale would give us a cutting edge. I'm just not sure Bale is a very realistic option and I'm inclined to give Cuadrado a chance next season. 

 

How does Koke adjust not just going from La Liga to the Premier League, but also going from being the primary playmaker to being someone who is there to supplement Hazard and Fabregas? 

We have real depth issues and we also need to look seriously at finding JT's long-term replacement, but I'd really love someone who could compliment Hazard on the right-wing. That to me is what takes us to the next-level.

 

isco as a nr 10 can complement hazard

isco as a nr 10 can complement hazard

 

So can Oscar, although in our formation I tend to think of Hazard as our number 10.

So can Oscar, although in our formation I tend to think of Hazard as our number 10.

Not at the level Isco could IMO.

He's a far better footballer than Oscar...he also turns up all year round which is a bonus.

Maybe having a player like him would actually give Oscar the wake up call he clearly needs.

Not at the level Isco could IMO.

He's a far better footballer than Oscar...he also turns up all year round which is a bonus.

Maybe having a player like him would actually give Oscar the wake up call he clearly needs.

 

He has the benefit of a winter break. I'm not saying Oscar has been consistent but Matic and Fabregas both had downturns after Christmas. That's why I want more options to rotate the midfield, but I'm not sure Koke is the prudent option.

Koke won't come imo, unless we sell Oscar. I doubt we'll sell Oscar since he's recently signed a new contract. On the other I don't see how is Koke and massive upgrade on Oscar... I really doubt he is. Yep, I do agree he creates more chances as stats show, but he takes sh*t loads of set pieces, free kicks from Atleti, if you remove those I think he creates almost the same as Oscar, both are of same age I think. Neither does Koke scores more than Oscar.

He has a bit better final ball I do agree, but he can't score as much as Oscar. I think he'll be a luxury signing.

 

I dunno why should we spend like 40m pounds on a similar player as Oscar. The problem Oscar has is well, he can't sustain his form for longer period of time, in early parts of season he becomes exceptionally good, but as the season goes on he goes missing far too often. 

I hope he improves his consistency next season, which  I believe he could. 

 

If we are to spend 40m+ pounds on a midfielder.. I think we should go for Pogba.. he'd give us something different that what we have currently. He'd allow us to dominate midfielders against any opposition. But still I think we don't need him as much.

Koke won't come imo, unless we sell Oscar. I doubt we'll sell Oscar since he's recently signed a new contract. On the other I don't see how is Koke and massive upgrade on Oscar... I really doubt he is. Yep, I do agree he creates more chances as stats show, but he takes sh*t loads of set pieces, free kicks from Atleti, if you remove those I think he creates almost the same as Oscar, both are of same age I think. Neither does Koke scores more than Oscar.

That's another area we are lacking badly in.

Our set plays are pretty poor just now especially free kicks, since Lampard left it seems no one has stood up to the plate. Oscar scored a few and Luis had a screamer but other than that the efforts on goal are awful.

We really do lack a set peiece specialist.

How does Koke adjust not just going from La Liga to the Premier League, but also going from being the primary playmaker to being someone who is there to supplement Hazard and Fabregas? 

 

It is a valid question although I don't really agree with the argument that Oscar has to facilitate Hazard and Fabregas and that's why he suffers creatively. I think talent dictates who supplements who as a playmaker, and talent will always shine through. Creative players will work well together and complement each other's creativity and not the other way round. 

Oh I know what the dots represent but there is little context to them. Like I said they can easily be viewed as having a lack of positional discipline as they can for showing how versatile a player is. I just don't think it proves or disproves anything as a piece of information on its own.

 

They demonstrate that Koke is perfectly capable of playing other positions than on the left while being equally effective and while also not getting in the way of Hazard (i.e. because the majority of his touches come on the right), which is what you argued against previously and why I posted it in the first place. He is not inherently a left midfielder.

 

 

They cannot be taken to demonstrate positional indiscipline, for example, here is a graphic of Willian's touches against QPR:

They are if anything more spread out yet clearly Willian doesn't lack for positional discipline.

 

 

 

See this sounds great but (and granted you've already touched on this) we already have Fabregas as the player gets the ball a lot, moves around keeps play moving etc. What we don't want is a situation of too many cooks, where we've got lots of players moving around, passing the ball from left to right, opening up spaces but then no one actually getting in behind the defences. That's a problem we've had already with the likes of Willian and Fabregas liking the ball to feet rather than running beyond their man (something I thought Schurrle offered us).

 

[...]

 

Flair was probably the wrong word to use, what I probably should have said was direct on reflection.

A Robben style player is basically exactly what I want. The sort of winger who just basically plays in style that says "don't worry lads, I've got this" and just relentless runs at defences at full tilt for 90 minutes. Gareth Bale would be the absolute ideal but that's extremely unlikely to happen.

 

I think you are right here in that we need a direct runner; I suppose theoretically that was what Cuadrado was supposed to offer, but obviously that hasn't worked out (yet at least). I rate Willian highly but it's not as if his game doesn't have room for improvement in a goalscoring sense. That said, signing Koke and getting that type of player aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It would likely rule us out of signing someone like Bale, but as you said that is unlikely to happen anyway.

There are still times when our passing looks laboured (less so than last season obviously) and we struggle to break down opposition defences. Koke's aforementioned versatility would provide us with a range of options:

 

 

Against a packed defence:

 

--------------Matic-----Fabregas

------Koke--------Oscar--------Hazard

 

In a possession-driven 4-3-3:

 

----------------------Matic

------------Fabregas-----Koke

------Willian/--------------------Hazard

----Cuadrado

 

Or as an alternative to one of Oscar or Fabregas in the XI/system we currently use. Considering the lack of consistency both of those players have demonstrated over the course of a whole season, it might be a good idea to have an alternative to one or both, doubly so considering we have nobody else in the squad who can come close to doing what Fabregas does. Koke would be able to do that, and I wouldn't be surprised if he surpassed him with time.

 

It might also be worth bearing in mind that Fabregas will be 29 at the end of next season and will have been playing as a consistent starter at the top level of football for over 12 years, a period during which he has played an average of 44 games a season of club football alone. He has remarkable fitness and (touch wood) doesn't seem particularly injury-prone, but that kind of commitment will take its toll on his body - my question is how long can he keep it up? We've been incredibly lucky this season in that Fabregas has always been available; without him we might have had serious problems in our creative play.

 

My (possibly slightly laboured point)  is that you bring in Koke and does it potentially upset the balance of the side and what the roles are some of those already in the team?

Ultimately I think this is the biggest argument against signing Koke. With his level of quality (and I imagine pricetag), it would be an incredible waste if he were not a consistent starter. There are other areas of the team which are probably in bigger need of improvement, and a large outlay on Koke may well prevent us from making a 'marquee' signing elsewhere; I don't know whether the Pogba rumours are true, but it would almost certainly put an end to that.

 

 

My desire to see us get him is from a personal hunch that he is going to become one of the best players of his generation. He has the rare combination of fantastic technique, fantastic vision, and the work rate and pressing ability to complement it. Another creative midfielder might not be at the very top of our list of transfer priorities (but it is on there), then again Koke isn't just 'another' creative midfielder. Admittedly a risk, as you said, but we would be guaranteed one of the top young talents in world football, who could well be one of our stars for the next decade.

I wasn't suggesting they play the same role but they typically occupy the same side/area of the pitch.

So buy Koke and expecting/hoping he'll emulate his Atletico form playing on the opposite side of the pitch seems a pretty big gamble for a player who would cost so much.

He made a name for himself last season playing on the right, putting in the same performances he has on the left this season. I understand your concern but in this instance it's really nothing to worry about as he's shown he plays well anywhere.

Not a fan of him, I think 30m is an overpay for him. Maybe it's because I barely watching him or just don't understand his type of playing but I can't see him as turning into a proper playmaker in the team.

Latest news: http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/574855/Chelsea-Felipe-Luis-Atletico-Madrid-Swap-Deal-Koke

 

Thoughts on this? I think it'll be great if the deal gets made, we definitely need upgrades in the centre of the pitch. Could lead fabregas to move into a number 10 position if Oscar gets sold in the summer (which seems like its a possibility)

Interested according to Di Marzio on Twitter.

Whats he saying?

Whats he saying?

Someone asked him about our interest in varane, griezmann and Koke. He just replied saying "interested in koke" I.e he has heard nothing to suggest we are legitimately linked with varane or griezmann but that we are keen on Koke.

Perhaps i'm not familiar enough with Koke, but is he not quite similar in style to Fabregas? Why would he come here to play on the bench? As i'm very doubtful that Jose would stick two relatively "luxury" players into the most important area of the field.

Despite his obvious creative quality, I don't think Koke is a luxury player, he has plenty of defensive nous and his work rate is admirable. Admittedly he's not as solid as Mikel or Ramires but he is far more solid than Fabregas. Probably at least on Oscar's level.