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Posted

Do you honestly believe John Stones is 'a turd'? Come on mate, he's a good young player with potential to be top class.

 

I was referring to Luiz (and even that was in jest 'cos I still like him even though defending isn't his strong point!)



Posted

How can you use the example of PSG hahahahahahaha. That league is worse than the Scottish league lol.

Carvalho is one of the greatest defenders ever in the premiership and his partnership with Terry only conceded 15 goals in the prem in there first season together. Luiz wasn't even half the defender Carvalho was.

 

As good as Carvalho was, I still feel our best ever CB partnership was JT & Gallas. Think one season we went on a run of 16 games without conceding a single goal. They complemented one another so well it was like the best Insurance policy you could ever ask for.

Posted

As good as Carvalho was, I still feel our best ever CB partnership was JT & Gallas. Think one season we went on a run of 16 games without conceding a single goal. They complemented one another so well it was like the best Insurance policy you could ever ask for.

Personally I did rate Carvalho better as a CB. Gallas was superb anywhere across the back 4 and maybe that played against him in the end. The swap for Cole was a superb deal though.



Posted

Misunderstood the 'last word' bit of the op. But here's mine.

Jose's gone, those players are gone another chapter in the 50yrs. of me following this enigma of a club has closed. Moving on with optimism and hope. God I love this club.

Posted

I haven't waded into this debate (or posted much on here at all recently, actually) but I feel this is a good thread to throw my thoughts in and move on.

 

Mourinho

During his first spell here, undoubtedly one of the world's best 3 managers. However what I feel people keep missing is that football changes and managers need to adapt - look at Van Gaal, clearly a world class manager in the 90s but such a disappointment at Manure.

 

Since Mou's last spell here, the focus in football seems to have moved from defence to attack. Just look at our defensive records in his first two seasons compared to the last few (as well as any league winning teams); back then a 0.5 goal/game striker was considered incredible - look at what Suarez and Aguero have been doing in recent seasons. Here's a great article on it by Gary Neville

 

Now, I don't think it's contentious to say that Mourinho is a defensive coach. He's clearly more comfortable setting up defensively and seems to feel that it allows him more control over his team and when the game is no longer as defensive as it once was, he's no longer as good as he once was. Since his treble with Inter, he's won a cup and a league in Spain (impressively beating Barca to the league but it was a two horse race with the other manager clearly burnt out and weary) and done the same here - limping over the finish line with defensive football.

 

I think defensively he's still the best coach out there but until we go back to being all about defence, he's not in the top 3.

 

Personality wise - he's always been one to deflect blame, make excuses and be petty. The Eva fiasco is embarrassing and sickening. Not because I like her for the way she looks, but because it's a horrendous way to treat a professional doing their job. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a massive part of the reason our squad has underperformed - look at the Wilkins sacking and the way the players seem to have reacted to that one. The "he loves this club" bullsh*t is self serving tripe that people lap up because they want it to be true. If he loved this club he wouldn't have been clamouring for the Utd job the moment he got sacked.

 

Transfers

Utterly dismayed at the sale of Mata. It's a consolation that he's not doing well at Manure for reasons I can't ascertain - but I am certain he'd have succeeded here with a different manager. He's not hugely different to Fabregas - slightly less robust, more mobile, better in the final third and had excellent chemistry with Hazard/Oscar. Couldn't play in a midfield 2, but would be fine in a midfield 3 with Matic and Oscar/Ramires (which we seemed to play last season). People write this off as "we got better" - yes, we did, but it was very short term thinking. Building the team slightly differently with his involvement would have produced far better results imo.

 

KDB - If Mata was sold to accommodate this guy, I'd have accepted it I suppose. More suitable to playing slightly deeper than Mata (though not sure he'd be good in a midfield 2, sure he can play in a 3). Pure example of Mourinho's stubbornness/favouritism imo. Ball dropped. Oh well.

 

Lukaku - Mismanaged by Mourinho, but would have our fans baying for his blood had he stayed. Watched him miss chance after chance against Manure on the weekend; he's only 23 in a few weeks so it's something you should expect and be patient with. But our fans wouldn't have that patience - I remember seeing Sturridge at the same age miss a couple of more difficult chances, some good saves, against West Brom and came on here to see him getting torn a new one by the fans. And that was only a league match. Still think it was a mistake to sell him, but Costa is the finished article which seems to be the only thing our fans will accept, and Lukaku would have been booed by our fans way before reaching the level he's currently at.

 

Other - some transfers have been laughable. Lets buy Salah and Cuadrado, give them 10 mins here and there without letting them get into any sort of rhythm (players always talk about the rhythm being important) and then loan/sell them at a huge loss because they haven't set the world alight. Lets buy one of the best LBs in the world but continue playing our incredible RB at LB, and let the really slow, defensively suspect CB continue at RB. Then sell him back for a fraction of the price! These all look like Mourinho signings, and the lack of opportunity is his doing.

 

Last summer's lack of investment again looks to me like partially Mourinho. People are quick to point the finger at the board for the signings, which they do have the final say on but from the profile of players we have signed, the ones we have sold etc I think it's very obvious that Mourinho has a large say in things. He was stuck on Stones and Pogba and the club tried to get them but failed. In Stones' case we pushed real hard for what he wanted but didn't pay over the odds and signed Djibodji as a last minute alternative - perhaps not the best signing but how many other good CBs can you get last minute like that? Bear in mind we still had JT, Cahill, Zouma and Ivan all capable of playing CB at a high level so it's not like we desperately needed to buy.

 

Not absolving the board of any responsibility here, but I've seen too many posts here making excuses for Mourinho when it's clear that he had a very large part to play in all this.

 

Final word - saw someone claiming that Mourinho would have made Stones far better. Are we forgetting David Luiz? I was/am a big fan of the guy and was excited to see Mourinho turn him into a world class CB but he seemed to give up on that one pretty quickly.

 

This is incredible, really incredible post.. you so much nail it.. 



Posted

There can never be a better CB pairing in the PL than Ricky and JT. Fact

 

No, that's an opinion. Best ever CB pairing was JT & Gallas. Fact.  :wink: 

Posted

No, that's an opinion. Best ever CB pairing was JT & Gallas. Fact. :wink:

Fair enough. I will agree to disagree ;) You need to factor in the own goals Gallas threatened to score[emoji14]
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Posted

I would second what Nibs said. I thought JT and Gallas were amazing.

 

I'm in the minority but I didn't think Riccy was THAT special. People say he carried JT at times when infact it seemed JT was carrying him all the time. He was prone to mistakes aswell. I was much more confident with Gallas partnering JT.

Posted (edited)

No idea where to put this and didn't want to start a new thread but something got me thinking. We went through a period of buying young players with potential to 'mould' into Chelsea players. So you had the likes of Mata, De Bruyne, Lukaku, Hazard, Oscar, Courtois etc.

 

Each of these players went up in value as you'd expect they would.

 

Then under Jose it changed slightly, so we bought players like Willian, Fabregas, Costa, Matic etc. most (if not all) I'd say we could sell for a profit, no? That's despite then generally being older, around 26-27 (again, might be a bit off on Matic and Willian but both were players who have gone up in price) and helped us win immediately.

 

 

But just look at the three names we're being associated with under Conte today; Nainggolan (28 in a week or so), Bonucci (29 soon) and Benatia (29). Now I'm sure we'll be linked with other players, most pointlessly Dembele from Fulham, but it does seem as though we seem to be focussing on the 'win now' category of players who likely won't have much sell-on value.

 

Now there's the possiblity we get a Stones, Marquinhos or Manolas in who are all younger, but Bonucci seems to be the first choice. It makes me wonder what the plan is for this club now because looking at those players' profiles it seems like something is changing. Or maybe it's not and it's nothing. 

 

Just a thought.

Edited by ShedEnder91


Posted

Hmm never considered the ages of the players were bringing in. I actually don't really care about sell on value etc Football is often about the here and now and you can always add youth to that and they will produce for the future.

Posted (edited)

Still transfer rumors at this stage and besides if true we are replacing experience with experience, we aren't buying a squad, just quality additions to get the club competing again. A squad of 23+ players, so many slots for youth. No problems with the transfer strategy there for me.

Edited by summer is coming
Posted

Still transferrumors at this stage and besides if true we are replacing experience with experience, we aren't buying a squad, just quality additions to get the club competing again. A squad of 23+ players, so many slots for youth. No problems with the transfer strategy there for me.

 

You're right. We might simply be buying experience, which we sorely need, and hoping the Academy provides the young blood.

 

I think the problem is that when we were buying younger players in 2012, they would be the established players comes 2016 but instead we're having to buy ready-made players to slot in and fill the gaps. That's no doubt partly down to us making a massive change in 2013 by hiring Jose.

 

What it might suggest is the Conte's remit is to win now and he'll be judged primarily on short-term goals. That doesn't always work out well for us.



Posted

No idea where to put this and didn't want to start a new thread but something got me thinking. We went through a period of buying young players with potential to 'mould' into Chelsea players. So you had the likes of Mata, De Bruyne, Lukaku, Hazard, Oscar, Courtois etc.

 

Each of these players went up in value as you'd expect they would.

 

Then under Jose it changed slightly, so we bought players like Willian, Fabregas, Costa, Matic etc. most (if not all) I'd say we could sell for a profit, no? That's despite then generally being older, around 26-27 (again, might be a bit off on Matic and Willian but both were players who have gone up in price) and helped us win immediately.

 

 

But just look at the three names we're being associated with under Conte today; Nainggolan (28 in a week or so), Bonucci (29 soon) and Benatia (29). Now I'm sure we'll be linked with other players, most pointlessly Dembele from Fulham, but it does seem as though we seem to be focussing on the 'win now' category of players who likely won't have much sell-on value.

 

Now there's the possiblity we get a Stones, Marquinhos or Manolas in who are all younger, but Bonucci seems to be the first choice. It makes me wonder what the plan is for this club now because looking at those players' profiles it seems like something is changing. Or maybe it's not and it's nothing. 

 

Just a thought.

 

That's the worrying thing for me. Who knows what was said when the club met and appointed Conte but you would bet your life it was along the lines of "This Club HAS to play CL football and that is your priority so make sure you acheive it no matter how".

 

Conte will be fairly certain that he won't finish top 4 by blooding the youth so it will be a case yet again of buying already established players who he knows and trusts. I sincerely hope that's not the case as that is exactly what I don't want but I seriously cannot see our Board accepting another season out of the CL and the risk of our "Global Brand" slipping further.

 

Early days so let's wait and see but right now I'm looking forward to watching tonight's Youth FA Cup final second leg more than I am the first team next season.

Posted (edited)

Will the fans accept being a midtable side while blooding the youth though? I mean we lost a game or drop points and the match day threads are full of negatives.

We don't at this time have a huge stadium or the global branding of United, Madrid and co so not getting CL football is going to hurt us much more than those sides. Also our owner doesn't seem to want to shell out hundreds of millions of pounds every season and tbh why should he?

I honestly don't think the majority of fans these days or club would accept anything less than CL football next season.

Edited by Chelsbear
Posted

Will the fans accept being a midtable side while blooding the youth though? I mean we lost a game or drop points and the match day threads are full of negatives.

We don't at this time have a huge stadium or the global branding of United, Madrid and co so not getting CL football is going to hurt us much more than those sides. Also our owner doesn't seem to want to shell out hundreds of millions of pounds every season and tbh why should he?

I honestly don't think the majority of fans these days or club would accept anything less than CL football next season.

 

If that's accurate, that just goes to show how spoilt & fair weather our supporters have become. Sure, it's great to be in the CL but I honestly won't miss it next season. The Group stages are a bore and even the latter knock-out stage has become predictable with similar fixtures every season.

 

Of course I want us to be successful and win things but would honestly rather we built long-term and brought through youngsters (as long as they are good enough - NOT just for the sake of it) rather than sign players yet again, just for the short-term - the "quick-win". 


Posted

If that's accurate, that just goes to show how spoilt & fair weather our supporters have become. Sure, it's great to be in the CL but I honestly won't miss it next season. The Group stages are a bore and even the latter knock-out stage has become predictable with similar fixtures every season.

Of course I want us to be successful and win things but would honestly rather we built long-term and brought through youngsters (as long as they are good enough - NOT just for the sake of it) rather than sign players yet again, just for the short-term - the "quick-win".

Well you look on here, social media and then in the pubs etc. when we are doing poorly and folk want heads to roll. Either the manager, players, Managing Director or whoever else.

Of course there will be fans like you and myself who would love to stick with a philosophy of a manager being allowed to bring through as many youngsters as possible and develop them over a period of seasons to see where we can go. The trouble with that though is £ is king in football now and if you spend 1 or 2 seasons not being involved in Europe or challenging for titles then you risk being in limbo for years to come. Roman and his people have spent an absolute fortune in getting Chelsea in the mix in the global footballing market, I honestly don’t see them risking falling behind in the hope of doing a United.

Arsenal are a prime example I suppose, we see them playing youngsters and bringing through young talent but all they have to show for it is a few FA cups and then you look at how much everyone including me has a go at them being a small minded club and so on. Recently they have started to spend big and I assume they will continue that to try and stay in the mix.

Conte being the new manager will have his own plans I’m sure and as every new manager will see players he trusts and would want them in instead of taking a chance on the young boys we have in our ranks, that’s probably to be expected. You would like to think if there is someone who sticks out they would be brought into the mix like RLC and given the chance but the demands at a club like this are HUGE.

I just think what I want is pretty unlikely to happen given the way football is these days and unless we are successful fairly instantly then we will continue to see the revolving door spinning while our youngsters tend to be overlooked.

Posted

I certainly will not miss the Champions League either. Seems to me there's so much focus on getting the CL money yet the teams in it don't actually give a sh*t about playing it until the latter stages.



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