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Final words on Mourinho, KDB, Lukaku and anything else


Eton Blue at the Chelsea Megastore

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I am not sure the extremely highly paid Jose Mourinho has ever managed a side who truly 'punched above their weight', so I for one am delighted that he will be some other clubs problem from now on.

You're talking crap now.

 

FC Porto (2003-2004)

  • Champions League winners - Finished 2nd in the group stages with Real Madrid finishing top. In the knockout stages, they defeated Manchester United (finished 3rd in the EPL), Lyon (French league champions), Deportivo La Coruna (finished 3rd in the La Liga six points short of top spot) and defeated an in-form AS Monaco 3-0 in the final.
  • League leaders in Portugal finishing 8 points clear on top ahead of second-placed Benfica.
  • Lost in extra time in their domestic knockout competition to Benfica.
  • A narrow 1-0 loss to a very strong AC Milan in the UEFA Super Cup.
  • Best players in no particular order included: Ricardo Carvalho, Paulo Ferreira, Deco, Maniche, Costinha, Derlei, Benni McCarthy, Bosingwa and Pedro Mendes. A good group of players with Deco being the standout amongst that group but hardly world beaters compared to other top European sides.

Inter Milan (2009-2010)

  • Champions League winners - Finished 2nd in the group stages behind Barcelona. In the knockout stages, they defeated Chelsea (finished 1st and won the FA Cup that season), CSKA Moscow, Barcelona (regarded as the greatest team of this era) and defeated Bayern Munich 2-0 in the final. In previous years, Inter were continually being knocked out in the last 16 so to lift this team to new heights was extraordinary.
  • 1st in Serie A - Finished 2 points clear on top with AS Roma finishing 2nd. Inter had won the Serie A three seasons in a row before Mourinho arrived, but Mourinho did well to consolidate this and win it in 2009 and 2010.
  • Coppa Italia winners - Defeated AS Roma in the final 1-0.
  • Statistically Inter's greatest season ever.
  • Mourinho left at the end of the 2009-2010 and Benitez came in and the team started underachieving instantaneously under him.
  • The squad was better than Porto's 2003-2004 squad but considering the competition surrounding them, they had no right to win the Champions League that year yet they achieved the ultimate prize.

Tell me again how Mourinho hasn't managed a side that has "punched above its weight".

Edited by Jezz
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A different opinion to yours is not stupid, just different ...  first season back JM won NOTHING ... mostly did worse in every competition than did Benitez the season before.

Premier League

2012-2013 = 3rd (75 points) - Di Matteo attained 24 points in 12 matches and we were 4 points short of being top of the ladder when he was sacked. Benitez attained 51 points in 26 matches which is slightly worse than Di Matteo's record.

2013-2014 = 3rd (82 points) - In 2012-2013, 82 points would have seen us clearly finished 2nd spot, whereas 75 points in 2013-2014 would have seen us finish 4th or 5th on the ladder.

 

FA Cup

2012-2013 = Semi Finals (Lost to Manchester City 2-1).

2013-2014 = 5th Round (Lost to Manchester City 2-0).

 

League Cup

2012-2013 = Semi Final (Lost to Swansea)

2013-2014 = 5th Round (Lost to Sunderland)

 

Champions League

2012-2013 = Last 16 (won Europa League)

2013-2014 = Semi Final (Lost to Atletico Madrid)

 

Premier League = Mourinho was better

FA Cup = Benitez was better (Both lost to the same opponent)

League Cup = Benitez slightly (Losing to Swansea was shocking. We lost to Sunderland in extra time in 2013-2014)

Champions League/Europa League = Mourinho easily. Champions League semi final is superior to winning the Europa League due to the level of competition that is existent here.

 

Conclusion: Mourinho was better in the Premier League and Champions League, which are harder competitions than the FA Cup and League Cup. In the FA Cup, Benitez was better but both managers both lost to the same opponent. In the League Cup, Benitez was slightly better but there's not much difference in my opinion in that competition.

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You're talking crap now.

 

FC Porto (2003-2004)

  • Champions League winners - Finished 2nd in the group stages with Real Madrid finishing top. In the knockout stages, they defeated Manchester United (finished 3rd in the EPL), Lyon (French league champions), Deportivo La Coruna (finished 3rd in the La Liga six points short of top spot) and defeated an in-form AS Monaco 3-0 in the final.
  • League leaders in Portugal finishing 8 points clear on top ahead of second-placed Benfica.
  • Lost in extra time in their domestic knockout competition to Benfica.
  • A narrow 1-0 loss to a very strong AC Milan in the UEFA Super Cup.
  • Best players in no particular order included: Ricardo Carvalho, Paulo Ferreira, Deco, Maniche, Costinha, Derlei, Benni McCarthy, Bosingwa and Pedro Mendes. A good group of players with Deco being the standout amongst that group but hardly world beaters compared to other top European sides.

Inter Milan (2009-2010)

  • Champions League winners - Finished 2nd in the group stages behind Barcelona. In the knockout stages, they defeated Chelsea (finished 1st and won the FA Cup that season), CSKA Moscow, Barcelona (regarded as the greatest team of this era) and defeated Bayern Munich 2-0 in the final. In previous years, Inter were continually being knocked out in the last 16 so to lift this team to new heights was extraordinary.
  • 1st in Serie A - Finished 2 points clear on top with AS Roma finishing 2nd. Inter had won the Serie A three seasons in a row before Mourinho arrived, but Mourinho did well to consolidate this and win it in 2009 and 2010.
  • Coppa Italia winners - Defeated AS Roma in the final 1-0.
  • Statistically Inter's greatest season ever.
  • Mourinho left at the end of the 2009-2010 and Benitez came in and the team started underachieving instantaneously under him.
  • The squad was better than Porto's 2003-2004 squad but considering the competition surrounding them, they had no right to win the Champions League that year yet they achieved the ultimate prize.

Tell me again how Mourinho hasn't managed a side that has "punched above its weight".

 

The debate is now Porto and Inter milan. Porto has always been the top dog in their league regardless of whoever their manager is.. Inter milan's dominance in serie A thanks largely to calciopolli incident as well as massive influx of some talented signings at that time.. Domestically, I wouldn't say it's much of an achievement for its success...  

 

Jose's greatest achievement is that he was able to turn those 2 rather 'unfancied' sides to win the CL, his fans loved to big that up and made it seems like it was some great feat.. now that seems legit but what about his failure to win the CL with rather 'fancied' sides like chelsea and real madrid? He had numerours attempts at both clubs but still couldn't deliver.. was he unlucky with the fancied clubs? or was his lucky with the unfancied clubs?

 

It's good to say not to underrate jose's achievement but at the same time, it's also good not to overrate his achievement.. 

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Jose's greatest achievement is that he was able to turn those 2 rather 'unfancied' sides to win the CL, his fans loved to big that up and made it seems like it was some great feat..

 

Un...f**king....believable
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Porto has always been the top dog in their league regardless of whoever their manager is..

 

Except they hadn't won the league in four years before Jose, were fifth when he took over and then he took them to two consecutive league wins and not just the Champions League win, but also the UEFA Cup the year before.

 

Sorry for not reading the rest of your post.

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Is Stones the same player under Mourinho as he is under Martinez? 

 

Let's flip that - is Zouma the same defender under Martinez? Does coaching matter to a player's development at all?

 

Stones and Pogba - they were the only two players available? There weren't any others that a Technical Director with a huge network of scouts could identify? 

 

It was John Stones or Papy Djilobodgi and no middle ground? 

 

Why does Jose get to insist on signing Falcao, but not on selling Cech to Arsenal? I'm quite happy to include Jose in the discussion on acquiring players but I also think the blame should be shared. 

 

So what did the club actually do last summer to improve the squad?

 

Under what circumstances you think that stones could be better off under jose's guidance? you're trying hard to force an opinion based on your already established assumption which is half baked imo.. you mentioned zouma but if you're looking at bigger picture, jose had rather bad record with youngsters so your assumption is optimistic at best.. 

 

This so called no middle ground target that you mentioned, forgive me to 'assume' that jose being difficult in this case.. could it be that jose didn't have the so called middleground target? we know how he made it out on 'all egg on single basket' when he was chasing rooney and if you think the club or emenalo should still have taken the initiative for the middleground target as part of his job, then maybe you need to consider jose's stubborness.. he just won't play the players he didn't recommend.. when the club looked at middleground target like salah, felipe etc being wasted, they could be forgiven to be wary on wasting money..

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Except they hadn't won the league in four years before Jose, were fifth when he took over and then he took them to two consecutive league wins and not just the Champions League win, but also the UEFA Cup the year before.

 

Sorry for not reading the rest of your post.

 

No need to apologize, you're entitled to do that.. it's fair play.. 

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Under what circumstances you think that stones could be better off under jose's guidance? you're trying hard to force an opinion based on your already established assumption which is half baked imo.. you mentioned zouma but if you're looking at bigger picture, jose had rather bad record with youngsters so your assumption is optimistic at best..

You seriously don't think stones would be better of learning of José mourinho rather than Martinez? Are you kidding me. Edited by dkw
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Ironic that the examples quoted of Jose being a wonderful over-achieving manager don't include any reference to either of his stints at Chelsea ... :rolleyes:

 

 

@Jezz ... your analysis of the respective JM vs FSW seasons is broadly the same as mine, though I would say 3rd is 3rd regardless of points (although fair comment we did actually contend in 2013/14 until all the Little Horse bollocks from our manager - in 2012/13 we were never a factor in the title race ... but ultimately 3rd is 3rd  :smile:  )  ... under Di Matteo/Benitez we did better in both domestic cups, and Jose did get us to CL Semis, but did not win a European competition, whereas it was Di Matteo that took us out of CL, and Rafa won the only European Competition open to him, which makes it a draw on Europe for me, as I tend to agree that SF in the CL vs a Win in the Europa has some merit. There is however only record in the history books of one trophy in those two seasons, and it wasn't on Jose's watch ...

 

When you factor in the stance that Mourinho is supposed to be a much better manager than FSW, plus he didn't have to operate at games under a cauldron of hate, and FSW didn't have the benefit of making any signings other than Demba Ba to replace Sturridge (JM had Willian, Schurrle, Eto'o, van Ginkel, and then in January Matic and Salah, in addition to what we had the year before, minus a few leaving that he didn't want) , then I stand by my view that Mourinho's first season back was below expectations ... he did not get the team to perform materially better than Di Matteo/FSW the previous year despite new investment and the total support of the fanbase.

 

None of which matters, of course, as it is abundantly clear across several threads that some of you will hear no criticism of Mourinho at all, even when it is valid, whereas I and some others won't budge on our opposite position either.

 

So we'll just have to agree to disagree and hopefully all move on under Conte, which is what this whole thread is supposed to be about ... drawing a line and remembering the common ground that we are all Chelsea supporters, which presumably means our hopes for the success of the team and the club are aligned ...

 

We certainly shouldn't be subjected to personal attacks or ridicule for having differing opinions on how that should be achieved though. Far too much cheap bullying on here, everyone should be better than that ...

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thats because you can't overachieve once you reach a certain status of club and resources. no manager, once they reach the top really, truly overachieves. their previous work demands they get the best clubs, the best resources and ultimately the best players. guardiola won the double having reprogrammed a club's first team squad in his first season at bayern. people have called him a failure in his current job. once you reach a certain level the way you're judged changes.

 

but jose's career is littered with defenders or defensive players who have vastly improved under his guidance. should zouma fully recover he will benefit massively from the time he spent under mourinho's tutelage. there is not a better coach of reactive football or of defensive spatial structure working today.

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I was so disappointed by Jose second time around. I love Jose and was so excited for his return. However considering both the board and Jose wanted to build a dynasty, Jose simply played a short term game. He didn't develop youth and paid lip service to them.

As I said, so disappointed that Jose didn't do what he said he would - build a legacy.

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I was so disappointed by Jose second time around. I love Jose and was so excited for his return. However considering both the board and Jose wanted to build a dynasty, Jose simply played a short term game. He didn't develop youth and paid lip service to them.

As I said, so disappointed that Jose didn't do what he said he would - build a legacy.

Yeah and I often stuck up for him thinking he'll play them yet when he said he would this season he still didn't. I'll be greatful always for what he achieved with but I worry if next was on goes badly that we'll see ge did more harm than good.

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It's six of one half a dozen of the other for me. We all knew what Jose was when he returned and his second spell didn't give any surprises.

He is first of all a winner and he won us a title which is bloody hard to do and for which we owe him gratitude.

He is also someone who rarely integrates youth players or gives a chance to players who he doesn't feel are worthy. Santon and Varane are the exception. So we saw that RLC, Solanke etc. who he said would be playing for England were never close. Mata the club's best player was sold. KdB and Lukaku weren't in his mind there yet. Eto'o served a purpose for one year, but meant Lukaku left, that is Jose's style.

Finally he is competitive to the point of toxicity. We knew this was the man who poked Vilanova in the eye, who hated Real's Spanish players being friends with Barcelona players. Evagate is symptomatic of that. His reaction when we began to lose was symptomatic of that.

In summary we knew what Jose was when he returned. He is a winner and he loves this club. But he has always had his faults. This is the price you pay because he wins things. I don't think you can seperate the two. I'm not sad he has gone. I don't think his approach has been good for the club in the long term. But titles are hard to win and I'll always be thankful for the three he won for us.

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And then he won the league in England, then Italy, then Spain, then Italy.

 

Do you think success is something you get given to you? I don't understand the need to denigrate people's achievements.

 

Success isn't given to you however it is much easier to achieve with millions to spend. Don't get me wrong, Mourinho is a good coach to get in for a year or two if you can give him a few hundred million to splash and get you a few quick titles.

 

Porto - £20million spent (This would have been a lot of money in 2002)

 

Chelsea -  £140milion 1st season

                 £80million 2nd season (on a team that had just won the league)

                 £80million 3rd season (This year would miss out on silverware)

 

Inter Milan - £50million 1st season

                    £83million 2nd season

 

Real Madrid - The year before Mourinho joined had spent £225million on new players. Surely Mourinho won't need to spend much money to win the league?

                       £82million 1st season

                       £43million 2ns season

 

Chelsea (second stint) - £105million 1st season

                                       £118million 2nd season

                                       £71.9million 3rd season

 

Its very interesting that Mourinho never stays anywhere longer than about 3 years and he either gets bored or the team crumbles under him.

 

At the end of the day he served his purpose and got us some silverware, i just hope that we can get a manager that can stay and do it in the long run. 

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I think the above is one of those posts that those who want to deride Mourinho's achievements will like and those who want to defend his achievements will pick apart. They might ask for net spend figures, they might ask for comparative spending or point out that other teams have spent as much and won considerably less. They might even point to the success of teams after he left, both positively and negatively.

 

Ultimately I don't think it's going to change anyone's thinking because no-one was probably under the impression that top clubs didn't spend money.

 

But just to show how these figures can be interpreted, in the last two seasons Chelsea have a NET spend (which accounts for what's going out of the club and not just what's coming in) of £14 million. Man City have a NET spend of over ELEVEN times that (£160 million). There may even be similar instances of that throughout his career and whilst the figures you've put down might be completely correct, there's zero context to them

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Only just come across this thread - new threads don't seem to show under my new content like they used to? But good thread anyway Bobby.

 

Some good posts, but I have to agree with JM7:

 

 

I was so disappointed by Jose second time around. I love Jose and was so excited for his return. However considering both the board and Jose wanted to build a dynasty, Jose simply played a short term game. He didn't develop youth and paid lip service to them.

As I said, so disappointed that Jose didn't do what he said he would - build a legacy.

 

The excitement when Jose returned and the talk was of him staying for a decade and building a dynasty, well that soon evaporated. It became clear it was going to be a case of same old, same old.

 

Thanks for the trophies and thanks for the memories, but bot so thankful for the state we were left in and the much weaker, less balanced squad. 

Guess if he hadn't returned we would always have wondered "what might have been?, Well now we know and although he did still bring success, it appeared to come at a cost and wasn't all it was cracked up to be so we can put that one to bed.

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