Just now, dkw said:

So 7 players is now the squad? As for pep adapting, city play in the exact same way as his other teams, so does klopps. 

I’m not saying 7 players make a squad, I was highlighting some of the premium players.

Peps City team play nothing like his Barca team, nor could they.

1 hour ago, shedpensioner said:

These players would get in anywhere, well apart from Jorginho lol

I disagree with most of your post, but on this one I even have Guardiola's backing. Jorginho was one of City's biggest target last summer, and would have started there if not for Sarri's arrival in Chelsea.

Edited January 3, 20197 yr by opinionsarelike

The decline in performances is a lot down to one thing, The lack of training pitch time.

He is coming in, trying to teach the squad a totally different brand of football to what the players are accustomed too, he has a broken pre season where most of the key players are on holiday from the world cup then when they come back they are getting upto speed for the first few weeks and by the time they are we end up starting the midweek marathon where we have played in every single midweek since the PAOK away game in September which renders training time as manly warm downs, that is a killer when learning a completely new system and style of play.

Imagine you are doing weekly theory test's for driving (to pluck a random example), the first few weeks you have all the time in the world to revise and perfect things, but after that practice time is cut down significantly, eventually it's going to start to show in your results, won't it?

The chances created and attacking play in the final 3rd isn't anywhere near what it could be, but one thing he has got right is how we are defending and how comfortable we are on the ball. Now i know some may reply with "possession is pointless if you do nothing with it" and all the usual stigma cliche's and as a rule i would agree, but with us/Sarri it's not the end game it's a hopeful building block onto bigger things. I remember a few years ago that video came out on YouTube of Napoli expertly playing the ball out of the back under extreme pressure and people on here were posting about it with the green eyed monster wishing our defenders could do that, well after six months we are doing that, we have been seamlessly playing out of trouble even against Liverpool and City with defenders that were supposedly not capable of it. The 65%-70 possession per match and how comfortable we are in possession is a starting block to where we are trying to go and in fact i think Sarri's done very well to implement that so early, i actually thought that was the part of his tactics that were going to take the longest to implement but it's been done seamlessly.

Also i am very impressed with how good we look defensively, again that's another part i thought was going to take a while and i expected us to be vulnerable at the back for pretty much the duration of season one, the last two against Palace and Southampton both barely got a sniff at a chance, apart from the last ten minutes against Palace i didn't even remotely fear we would concede, that is quite remarkable all things considered, now i may get the usual counter of "it's only Palace and Southampton" well they have smashed a combined four past City recently and we gave neither a sniff. While we are on the subject of City remember how awful Pep and Klopp's defense was in the early stage? For Sarri to have us looking quite solid so early is a massive plus for me.

Now when a manager is not getting it all his own way there's always one thing you need to ask, can you see what he's trying to do? It doesn't matter how well he's currently doing it but just to focus on the question. Moyes would be the greatest example of the answer to that question being no, there was no real blueprint or idea on what he was trying to achieve and it looked like he was making it up as he went along. An example of yes would be Klopp at Liverpool, didn't get it all his own way for the first two years but the blueprint was there, what he was trying to achieve was there. With Sarri i can see what he's trying to do he wants us to play with speed and decisiveness but unfortunately that's beyond some of the current players, it's not even about getting the best players it's about getting players more suited to the style. Willian doesn't fit his desired tactics, neither does Barkley, neither do the forwards, neither does Alonso from an attacking POV, Kante's getting there but still learning the ropes, we can't consistently play the style he wants but we are trying to work towards it, for example Alonso's post hit at the end of the Leicester game would have been a typical Sarri goal.

All things considered Sarri right now i wouldn't say should get a free hit, but there is definitely mitigating circumstances which means he deserves the benefit of the doubt and we should give him a couple of windows to see where he could take us. Now don't get me wrong if we are still performing with such sketchy end product this time next year i will be as skeptical as anyone but what would the options be at the minute? Bottle it and go pragmatic for the end of the season and be back to square one in the summer? The big pro argument for that in the past is it would put us with a chance of the major trophies (2009, 2012) that isn't the case anymore so we have nothing to really lose by seeing the process though unless we bomb badly. With the emergence of what City, Liverpool and to an extent Spurs are doing we need to build something sustainable to keep up, the sticky plaster route was only ever going to work for so long!!

Edited January 3, 20197 yr by Argo

3 hours ago, enigma said:

Football is volatile, just because the changes are not immediate doesn't mean they aren't happening.

You can already see the changes Sarri is trying to make, for e.g playing out from the back - successfully.

Kante evolving in his new position. Hazard as good as ever. Sure we are not blasting teams away, but the team is slowly changing.

People who critique Sarri, also must remember that this is his first time in England, working in a new league, and even the elite level coaches like Mourinho have failed in the past couple seasons with an arguably as good team. 

The league is definitely more competitive, but the club wouldn't have hired Sarri if the idea wasn't to build for the future. 

I bet many said the same regarding AVB Scolari etc......there were hired for long term success. Sadly you dont have that in epl and at elite level today. He said himself he needs 3-4 months to get us going......but instead its steadily getting worse. I want him to do well here and win titles, but god damn it we are so slow and boring to watch. Its lacking big time......surely some changes/comprimises has to be made to get us better going, no? Until he has the players he wont get Sarii ball out of this team.......its not gonna happen.

20 hours ago, Argo said:

The decline in performances is a lot down to one thing, The lack of training pitch time.

He is coming in, trying to teach the squad a totally different brand of football to what the players are accustomed too, he has a broken pre season where most of the key players are on holiday from the world cup then when they come back they are getting upto speed for the first few weeks and by the time they are we end up starting the midweek marathon where we have played in every single midweek since the PAOK away game in September which renders training time as manly warm downs, that is a killer when learning a completely new system and style of play.

Imagine you are doing weekly theory test's for driving (to pluck a random example), the first few weeks you have all the time in the world to revise and perfect things, but after that practice time is cut down significantly, eventually it's going to start to show in your results, won't it?

The chances created and attacking play in the final 3rd isn't anywhere near what it could be, but one thing he has got right is how we are defending and how comfortable we are on the ball. Now i know some may reply with "possession is pointless if you do nothing with it" and all the usual stigma cliche's and as a rule i would agree, but with us/Sarri it's not the end game it's a hopeful building block onto bigger things. I remember a few years ago that video came out on YouTube of Napoli expertly playing the ball out of the back under extreme pressure and people on here were posting about it with the green eyed monster wishing our defenders could do that, well after six months we are doing that, we have been seamlessly playing out of trouble even against Liverpool and City with defenders that were supposedly not capable of it. The 65%-70 possession per match and how comfortable we are in possession is a starting block to where we are trying to go and in fact i think Sarri's done very well to implement that so early, i actually thought that was the part of his tactics that were going to take the longest to implement but it's been done seamlessly.

Also i am very impressed with how good we look defensively, again that's another part i thought was going to take a while and i expected us to be vulnerable at the back for pretty much the duration of season one, the last two against Palace and Southampton both barely got a sniff at a chance, apart from the last ten minutes against Palace i didn't even remotely fear we would concede, that is quite remarkable all things considered, now i may get the usual counter of "it's only Palace and Southampton" well they have smashed a combined four past City recently and we gave neither a sniff. While we are on the subject of City remember how awful Pep and Klopp's defense was in the early stage? For Sarri to have us looking quite solid so early is a massive plus for me.

Now when a manager is not getting it all his own way there's always one thing you need to ask, can you see what he's trying to do? It doesn't matter how well he's currently doing it but just to focus on the question. Moyes would be the greatest example of the answer to that question being no, there was no real blueprint or idea on what he was trying to achieve and it looked like he was making it up as he went along. An example of yes would be Klopp at Liverpool, didn't get it all his own way for the first two years but the blueprint was there, what he was trying to achieve was there. With Sarri i can see what he's trying to do he wants us to play with speed and decisiveness but unfortunately that's beyond some of the current players, it's not even about getting the best players it's about getting players more suited to the style. Willian doesn't fit his desired tactics, neither does Barkley, neither do the forwards, neither does Alonso from an attacking POV, Kante's getting there but still learning the ropes, we can't consistently play the style he wants but we are trying to work towards it, for example Alonso's post hit at the end of the Leicester game would have been a typical Sarri goal.

All things considered Sarri right now i wouldn't say should get a free hit, but there is definitely mitigating circumstances which means he deserves the benefit of the doubt and we should give him a couple of windows to see where he could take us. Now don't get me wrong if we are still performing with such sketchy end product this time next year i will be as skeptical as anyone but what would the options be at the minute? Bottle it and go pragmatic for the end of the season and be back to square one in the summer? The big pro argument for that in the past is it would put us with a chance of the major trophies (2009, 2012) that isn't the case anymore so we have nothing to really lose by seeing the process though unless we bomb badly. With the emergence of what City, Liverpool and to an extent Spurs are doing we need to build something sustainable to keep up, the sticky plaster route was only ever going to work for so long!!?

Congratulations ! Very intelligent considerations !  I can add a simple number 16 like the goals conceded. The second best defense of the Premier, better of Tottenham and City, the half of Arsenal and United. This is the job, the first thing on which a trainer can affect, much more than the offensive phase that is more related to the whip of the singles in the last 20 meters. There are problems, it's undeniable, the ball must move faster, the pressing must be more intense, but for this there is not magic wand, it depends above all on the attitude of the players. Give him time, support and possibly players. Bye 

On 03/01/2019 at 16:31, opinionsarelike said:

I disagree with most of your post, but on this one I even have Guardiola's backing. Jorginho was one of City's biggest target last summer, and would have started there if not for Sarri's arrival in Chelsea.

Hypothetical but based on performance this season I don't think he would have been picked ahead of Fabinho. And if KDB had been fit and available I don't think he would have edged him out either.

Our Georgie boy passes the ball neatly but there really isn't a lot more. So far.

9 hours ago, Master&Commander said:

Congratulations ! Very intelligent considerations !  I can add a simple number 16 like the goals conceded. The second best defense of the Premier, better of Tottenham and City, the half of Arsenal and United. This is the job, the first thing on which a trainer can affect, much more than the offensive phase that is more related to the whip of the singles in the last 20 meters. There are problems, it's undeniable, the ball must move faster, the pressing must be more intense, but for this there is not magic wand, it depends above all on the attitude of the players. Give him time, support and possibly players. Bye 

Are you Sarri? If so please buy Joelinton for CF also Adam Lallana is your backup false 9 (he can also play left centre midfield). Keep Hazard and play CHO more often. PS Barkley is sh*t. Keep up the good work. Thanks. 

 

Edited January 4, 20197 yr by the special one

24 minutes ago, just said:

Hypothetical but based on performance this season I don't think he would have been picked ahead of Fabinho. And if KDB had been fit and available I don't think he would have edged him out either.

I think the movement Guardiola's teams have, with two rampant full backs, two attack minded midfield players and a very mobile trio up front, would have made Jorginho's qualities stick out. It's night and day difference to how the Italian played for Napoli, with their well drilled system and willing off-the-ball runners, and the static players in front of him in today's team (where everyone barring Kanté seems unwilling and/or unable to make good runs).

I do agree that it is a hypothetical, but Jorginho was undeniably a big target for Guardiola. Maybe Fernandinho would have played the more difficult matches for them, but then again, Guardiola fielded two number ten's in his midfield against a pretty decent Liverpool-team. 

23 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

I think the movement Guardiola's teams have, with two rampant full backs, two attack minded midfield players and a very mobile trio up front, would have made Jorginho's qualities stick out. It's night and day difference to how the Italian played for Napoli, with their well drilled system and willing off-the-ball runners, and the static players in front of him in today's team (where everyone barring Kanté seems unwilling and/or unable to make good runs).

I do agree that it is a hypothetical, but Jorginho was undeniably a big target for Guardiola. Maybe Fernandinho would have played the more difficult matches for them, but then again, Guardiola fielded two number ten's in his midfield against a pretty decent Liverpool-team. 

Outside of his passing I am not sure what his other qualities are? Obviously, not a goal threat, no pace to speak of, bit lightweight defensively, no aerial power, can't dribble past opponents, or power past them. 

If players are available he moves the ball well and retains possession which is what Sarri wants. But I was expecting him to be a Pirlo type orchestrator and, so far, he really isn't.

Edited January 4, 20197 yr by just

11 hours ago, the special one said:

Are you Sarri? If so please buy Joelinton for CF also Adam Lallana is your backup false 9 (he can also play left centre midfield). Keep Hazard and play CHO more often. PS Barkley is sh*t. Keep up the good work. Thanks. 

 

if I were him, I wouldn't be able to do it because I deal only me with pitch and not of market. 

10 hours ago, just said:

Outside of his passing I am not sure what his other qualities are? Obviously, not a goal threat, no pace to speak of, bit lightweight defensively, no aerial power, can't dribble past opponents, or power past them. 

If players are available he moves the ball well and retains possession which is what Sarri wants. But I was expecting him to be a Pirlo type orchestrator and, so far, he really isn't.

He does control the games.

When the ball is in the middle and one our team mates are under pressure, he's always in a position to receive a pass something that prevents us being dispossessed in dangerous areas who then issues a pass into an opponent in more space. It's probably our biggest defence against the counter attacks, look at the Palace game for example, they are one of the most dangerous counter attacking side in the league and they didn't have any counters against us or look like they were going to. His role may not be spectacular to the romantic, but in terms of what we are trying to build and especially the period of the process we are in he is probably our most important player right now.

And as alluded to above, he can pick our passes when there's movement in front of him, his pass to Alonso (who set up Pedro against Arsenal) proof of that.

There's many problems with this side right now but Jorginho isn't one of them!

10 hours ago, just said:

Outside of his passing I am not sure what his other qualities are? Obviously, not a goal threat, no pace to speak of, bit lightweight defensively, no aerial power, can't dribble past opponents, or power past them. 

If players are available he moves the ball well and retains possession which is what Sarri wants. But I was expecting him to be a Pirlo type orchestrator and, so far, he really isn't.

Jo, as you said, moves very well and fast the ball and besides he knows how to intercept very well the lines of passages of the opponents . He needs to give the best the team very short in the pitch. In the large spaces is always in trouble.  

54 minutes ago, Master&Commander said:

if I were him, I wouldn't be able to do it because I deal only me with pitch and not of market. 

Good luck today, up the Chels! 

(PS play CHO)

11 minutes ago, the special one said:

Good luck today, up the Chels! 

(PS play CHO)

CHO+10 always

but  dear Callum grow a pair come on !

23 hours ago, Argo said:

He does control the games.

 

There's many problems with this side right now but Jorginho isn't one of them!

Jorginho doesn’t control the games, controlling a game means you are the most influential player in attack & defence & every good thing your team does comes through you. This is not the case with Jorginho.

Jorginho is one of the problems in this team right now, but I don’t blame him, he’s stifling the team because although this system worked in Italy it won’t work in England with a player that doesn’t have the athleticism needed for the English game. Change to 4213 and I think we’ll see the best of the players currently at our disposal.

edit: my preferred team would be

Kepa

Dave Rudiger Luiz Alonso

Kante Jorginho 

RLC

CHO Giroud Hazard

then I think we see the ball moving freely & great attacking football.

Edited January 6, 20197 yr by shedpensioner

5 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

Jorginho doesn’t control the games, controlling a game means you are the most influential player in attack & defence & every good thing your team does comes through you. This is not the case with Jorginho.

Jorginho is one of the problems in this team right now, but I don’t blame him, he’s stifling the team because although this system worked in Italy it won’t work in England with a player that doesn’t have the athleticism needed for the English game. Change to 4213 and I think we’ll see the best of the players currently at our disposal.

edit: my preferred team would be

Kepa

Dave Rudiger Luiz Alonso

Kante Jorginho 

RLC

CHO Giroud Hazard

then I think we see the ball moving freely & great attacking football.

Im sorry but he does, and you have basically deleted my explanation explaining why. 

3 minutes ago, Argo said:

Im sorry but he does, and you have basically deleted my explanation explaining why. 

People will already have read your post, I was highlighting what I was replying to.

1 hour ago, shedpensioner said:

Jorginho doesn’t control the games, controlling a game means you are the most influential player in attack & defence & every good thing your team does comes through you. This is not the case with Jorginho.

Jorginho is one of the problems in this team right now, but I don’t blame him, he’s stifling the team because although this system worked in Italy it won’t work in England with a player that doesn’t have the athleticism needed for the English game. Change to 4213 and I think we’ll see the best of the players currently at our disposal.

edit: my preferred team would be

Kepa

Dave Rudiger Luiz Alonso

Kante Jorginho 

RLC

CHO Giroud Hazard

then I think we see the ball moving freely & great attacking football.

UHmmmm the football is football in Italy, in england, in Japan or Burkina Faso. If the team is short in the pitch Jorginho don't have any problem of athleticism.  The target is to control the game not to run after the opponents.  The target is to be a team not 11 players. If you didn't want this you could hold Conte, great coach, maybe the best for another kind of game.

11 minutes ago, Master&Commander said:

UHmmmm the football is football in Italy, in england, in Japan or Burkina Faso. If the team is short in the pitch Jorginho don't have any problem of athleticism.  The target is to control the game not to run after the opponents.  The target is to be a team not 11 players. If you didn't want this you could hold Conte, great coach, maybe the best for another kind of game.

The thing with Jorginho, he's a very good player imho, not perfect but we could have a lot worse. There a very few players better than him capable of playing as a playmaker, Thiago, Pjanic, Bentancur, Fernandinho, and I'd argue Jordan Henderson. The problem we have isn't Jorginho, it's who replaces him when he's injured/suspended, Drinkwater?

Edited January 6, 20197 yr by the special one

7 minutes ago, the special one said:

The thing with Jorginho, he's a very good player imho, not perfect but we could have a lot worse. There a very few players better than him capable of playing as a playmaker, Thiago, Pjanic, Bentancur, Fernandinho, and I'd argue Jordan Henderson. The problem we have isn't Jorginho, it's who replaces him when he's injured/suspended, Drinkwater?

Perhaps he could be try Kovacic  in the middle, with Barkley and Kantè on the side.

5 hours ago, Master&Commander said:

UHmmmm the football is football in Italy, in england, in Japan or Burkina Faso. If the team is short in the pitch Jorginho don't have any problem of athleticism.  The target is to control the game not to run after the opponents.  The target is to be a team not 11 players. If you didn't want this you could hold Conte, great coach, maybe the best for another kind of game.

Yes football is football but each league has a different style & characteristic! In England the league is about power & pace, in Italy it is about defence, Spain is about attack, I could go on. 

It’s what makes the Champions League so exciting watching these different styles pitted against each other.

7 hours ago, Master&Commander said:

UHmmmm the football is football in Italy, in england, in Japan or Burkina Faso. If the team is short in the pitch Jorginho don't have any problem of athleticism.  The target is to control the game not to run after the opponents.  The target is to be a team not 11 players. If you didn't want this you could hold Conte, great coach, maybe the best for another kind of game.

It might be the same game but aspects of it are def not the same........there is a reason so many players and managers fail in epl or need time to adjust, more than other leagues. Epl will always be about directness, pace and power.

1 hour ago, shedpensioner said:

Yes football is football but each league has a different style & characteristic! In England the league is about power & pace, in Italy it is about defence, Spain is about attack, I could go on. 

It’s what makes the Champions League so exciting watching these different styles pitted against each other.

The style and the characteristics are done to be overcome. Chelsea with Sarri must have the ambition to be a model in England and in Europe .  

On 03/01/2019 at 17:10, Argo said:

The decline in performances is a lot down to one thing, The lack of training pitch time.

He is coming in, trying to teach the squad a totally different brand of football to what the players are accustomed too, he has a broken pre season where most of the key players are on holiday from the world cup then when they come back they are getting upto speed for the first few weeks and by the time they are we end up starting the midweek marathon where we have played in every single midweek since the PAOK away game in September which renders training time as manly warm downs, that is a killer when learning a completely new system and style of play.

Imagine you are doing weekly theory test's for driving (to pluck a random example), the first few weeks you have all the time in the world to revise and perfect things, but after that practice time is cut down significantly, eventually it's going to start to show in your results, won't it?

The chances created and attacking play in the final 3rd isn't anywhere near what it could be, but one thing he has got right is how we are defending and how comfortable we are on the ball. Now i know some may reply with "possession is pointless if you do nothing with it" and all the usual stigma cliche's and as a rule i would agree, but with us/Sarri it's not the end game it's a hopeful building block onto bigger things. I remember a few years ago that video came out on YouTube of Napoli expertly playing the ball out of the back under extreme pressure and people on here were posting about it with the green eyed monster wishing our defenders could do that, well after six months we are doing that, we have been seamlessly playing out of trouble even against Liverpool and City with defenders that were supposedly not capable of it. The 65%-70 possession per match and how comfortable we are in possession is a starting block to where we are trying to go and in fact i think Sarri's done very well to implement that so early, i actually thought that was the part of his tactics that were going to take the longest to implement but it's been done seamlessly.

Also i am very impressed with how good we look defensively, again that's another part i thought was going to take a while and i expected us to be vulnerable at the back for pretty much the duration of season one, the last two against Palace and Southampton both barely got a sniff at a chance, apart from the last ten minutes against Palace i didn't even remotely fear we would concede, that is quite remarkable all things considered, now i may get the usual counter of "it's only Palace and Southampton" well they have smashed a combined four past City recently and we gave neither a sniff. While we are on the subject of City remember how awful Pep and Klopp's defense was in the early stage? For Sarri to have us looking quite solid so early is a massive plus for me.

Now when a manager is not getting it all his own way there's always one thing you need to ask, can you see what he's trying to do? It doesn't matter how well he's currently doing it but just to focus on the question. Moyes would be the greatest example of the answer to that question being no, there was no real blueprint or idea on what he was trying to achieve and it looked like he was making it up as he went along. An example of yes would be Klopp at Liverpool, didn't get it all his own way for the first two years but the blueprint was there, what he was trying to achieve was there. With Sarri i can see what he's trying to do he wants us to play with speed and decisiveness but unfortunately that's beyond some of the current players, it's not even about getting the best players it's about getting players more suited to the style. Willian doesn't fit his desired tactics, neither does Barkley, neither do the forwards, neither does Alonso from an attacking POV, Kante's getting there but still learning the ropes, we can't consistently play the style he wants but we are trying to work towards it, for example Alonso's post hit at the end of the Leicester game would have been a typical Sarri goal.

All things considered Sarri right now i wouldn't say should get a free hit, but there is definitely mitigating circumstances which means he deserves the benefit of the doubt and we should give him a couple of windows to see where he could take us. Now don't get me wrong if we are still performing with such sketchy end product this time next year i will be as skeptical as anyone but what would the options be at the minute? Bottle it and go pragmatic for the end of the season and be back to square one in the summer? The big pro argument for that in the past is it would put us with a chance of the major trophies (2009, 2012) that isn't the case anymore so we have nothing to really lose by seeing the process though unless we bomb badly. With the emergence of what City, Liverpool and to an extent Spurs are doing we need to build something sustainable to keep up, the sticky plaster route was only ever going to work for so long!!

Great post, and i particularly liked the bit i have highlighted.

34 minutes ago, atomis said:

Epl will always be about directness, pace and power.

Is that why Guardiola beat the points record by some distance playing a style many deem as indirect, with many small and physically not-so-big players?