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Don't moan 'cos we all expected it didn't we ?


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Avram Grant isn't capable of managing a top side in Europe.

If u change your system and try to play open attacking football without the mentality and players to do it you ultimately will leak goals, lose points and chase gun ho instead of biding your time and letting class tell.

Without Drogba and JT we are not a top three outfit let alone Champions again.

If you change direction after so few games into a season and you oust one of the best managers in the business you can virtually write off your season.

Jose is the best man manager in the business and as substitutions go he knew when to act and got results and points when it looked impossible.

Arsenal and Man United have better players and better youngsters despite our new approach and appointment of Arneson.

We are on a par with Liverpool in the English game now because we both have sh*t managers.

Roman Abromovitch is a businessman, maybe a fan, but hasn't a clue about football and how managers and players tick.

We need Anelka and a settled backline.

We with the luck of the draw have an outside chance in the Champions League because the league had gone from the moment Jose was sacked. However we should be in double figure's and not 7/1 !!!!

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I take it you are in the camp that whilst accepting that

1. Without Drogba and JT we are not a top three outfit let alone Champions again; and

2. Arsenal and Man United have better players and better youngsters despite our new approach and appointment of Arneson.

Jose is entirely devoid of any blame for this.

Do you think we would have been challengers for the title with Jose in charge this season? I don't and I know for a lot of people it is convenient to claim that all of that was caused by the signing of Shevchenko that simply isn't the case.

it really is a 'can't win'scenario - you moan that he tries to chage his style without the players to do it whereas the likes of Callista and Bluenut moan that he doesn't change the style.

personally I agree with you that he shouldn't change the style until he brings in the players he thinks are capable of palying it. This squad are not capable of playing a more expansive game, they neither have the necessary skills or, to be quite frank, the quick footballing brain for it - the only two players out there today that actually looked like they were thinking abiout what they were doin were Ballack and Shevchenko, the rest were on autopilot.

And we do need a settled backline - however that is pretty hard to do when plaeyrs are getting injuured every week or sent off as they did today - none of this being Grant's fault.

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I take it you are in the camp that whilst accepting that

1. Without Drogba and JT we are not a top three outfit let alone Champions again; and

2. Arsenal and Man United have better players and better youngsters despite our new approach and appointment of Arneson.

Jose is entirely devoid of any blame for this.

Do you think we would have been challengers for the title with Jose in charge this season? I don't and I know for a lot of people it is convenient to claim that all of that was caused by the signing of Shevchenko that simply isn't the case.

it really is a 'can't win'scenario - you moan that he tries to chage his style without the players to do it whereas the likes of Callista and Bluenut moan that he doesn't change the style.

personally I agree with you that he shouldn't change the style until he brings in the players he thinks are capable of palying it. This squad are not capable of playing a more expansive game, they neither have the necessary skills or, to be quite frank, the quick footballing brain for it - the only two players out there today that actually looked like they were thinking abiout what they were doin were Ballack and Shevchenko, the rest were on autopilot.

And we do need a settled backline - however that is pretty hard to do when plaeyrs are getting injuured every week or sent off as they did today - none of this being Grant's fault.

I have to agree Jose is to some extent to blame for all his signings have not proved spot on. I totally disagree that Ballack and Shevchenko were not the start of our problems for it is certain he never wanted either and ultimately it was the start of he and Roman's frosty relationship.

But the over-riding factor that sums up my headline is ...

We sacked Jose and brought in Avram Grant - was it a good move ? Would have any top side in Europe done it ??

I predicted we'd win nothing under Grant and I stick by it, even though the CL might be within our grasp.

But what is a waste of time is people posting negative things when they were in the 'Give him a chance' brigade when it was blatantly obvious he isn't in Jose's or Chelsea's league.

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I am in the 'Give Him a Chance' camp however am more than prepared to criticise where I see it as being due. However having said that I wasn't happy when he was appointed for the very reason that his credentials don' stack up compared to some of the other potential candidates (Good God we could have got Capello!) but I think there is a difference between feeling that way and some of the criticism he gets on here.

Every week we see people desperatley trying to pick out all his faults and more often than not make some kind of circular reference back to Jose to somehow claim 'Jose wouldn't have done that' - some to the extent that that practically rewrite history and forget any mistake Jose ever made.

If Grant was replaced tomorrow by someone like Lippi then I would be delighted however what I don't buy into any kind of claim that the reason we won't win the title this season is entirely down to Grant (not saying you are saying this Star) - this squad is not good enough to win the league, Utd's is better and Arsenal's is better and even with Jose in charge I think we would have been in a battle for third spot.

Someone on another thread made some stupid post saying that uder Jose we were 2 points off the top when he was sacked and now we are 8 points - totally ignoring the fact that we were 2 points off the lead after 6 games and are now 8 points after 18 games - which pretty much means that statistically they have achieved the same this season. Now that alone as an argument is totally lame anyway but it is just an illustration of how pathetic the 'Have a go at grant' criticism sometimes gets to.

I am not aiming this at the likes of Bluenut, ethicalstrategy, Jack and Callista who although I disagree with a lot of what they are saying they at least use their brains to back up their position - it is aimed more at the people who, quite simply, haven't a bloody clue what they are talking about and simply hate Grant just for not being Jose.

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The main reason Grant annoys me is that he talks about this change in style as if it has already happened when it plainly has not.

I just don't like my intelligence being repeatedly insulted that's all.

I just think he is making himself a big stick with which to beat himself unnecessarily with, he's just making life more difficult for himself.

As for Jose being blameless, no of course not, lots of things have apparently gone on behind the scenes that were probably made far far worse by Jose's attitude I don't doubt that for a minute actually. And given that things finally appear to have reached a total meltdown in relations then his departure was in a way the best thing for Chelsea - and him.

So believe it or not I am in the give him a chance camp despite my annoyance over his blabberings post match which make me groan - we don't have the team to play the style he wants end of story.

Although I have to agree with others here who doubt the man's ultimate credentials for this job. I'm sorry but they guy was last getting in Harry's way at Portsmouth wandering around putting cones out and before that spent 20 odd years in the Israeli league hiding his burning light under a bush when Roman apparently discovered him.

Now he could be the new Wenger of course but I just feel in my gut he is the new Ranieri.

Nice guy, doesn't cause a stink in the press like Mourinho did, good enough coach to give you some great matches one moment and then some absolute dire displays the very next, good enough to be the bridesmaid but never the bride. He lacks for me the charisma, drive and determination to get Chelsea where they want to go now - although as I have never spoken to Roman personally I guess I'm not sure where the hell that is but presumably it's continued success a la Mourinho BUT with more style and panache.

Grant deserves a chance and he will get it (Roman has given him a contract after all icon_wink.gif) but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass because of it, hell Mourinho never did so why should Grant? If he's the great coach Roman believes him to be (hence his appointment) then he can live and die by the same high standards Mourinho set as far as I'm concerned. And that means having to cope with a terrible injury crisis but still getting players to perform, having to win every game no matter what, making key tactical subs at critical moments to try and change a game, facing the fury of the fans when we don't win be it fair or not, facing the media having a go at you non stop and leaping on what you say.

So give him time by all means to make mistakes and figure out where this team needs to go and develop a new style Chelsea if that's what makes Roman all gooey inside but at the end of the day he will (like it or not, fair or not) be judged on what Mourinho did - you can't get away from that and neither can Grant and the board however much they might like to.

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I'm with Star here, he doesn't have the track record or pedigree to manage any premier league club, let alone one that hasn't finished outside the top 2 for the last 4 years! I'll keep saying it until he proves me right, regardless of who he took over from, which DOES make it alot harder to swallow! And a 4 year deal,to boot, you're having a laugh!

Goodbye to the top 2 this season, hopefully top four finish, but that's not guaranteed!

Thanks Roman, after 3-4 games in you decided to write off the season, are the season ticket holders entitled to a refund for this year?

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For what its worth i dont think we will come close to the league again under grant, i dont think he has that winners mentality needed.. weather or not he has the tactical nouse is still up for debate.

I have however decided to judge him on a game by game basis for the time being untill he gets "his" sorted with "his" players then ill probably be a lot harsher on him than i am at the moment if he fails.

In answer to Loz's question about challenging for the title under Jose, simply put... yes i do believe we would be further up the table if Jose was still in charge. One thing id put everything i own on would be that we would not have shipped 4 goals yesterday!!

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I am in the 'Give Him a Chance' camp however am more than prepared to criticise where I see it as being due. However having said that I wasn't happy when he was appointed for the very reason that his credentials don' stack up compared to some of the other potential candidates (Good God we could have got Capello!) but I think there is a difference between feeling that way and some of the criticism he gets on here.

Every week we see people desperatley trying to pick out all his faults and more often than not make some kind of circular reference back to Jose to somehow claim 'Jose wouldn't have done that' - some to the extent that that practically rewrite history and forget any mistake Jose ever made.

If Grant was replaced tomorrow by someone like Lippi then I would be delighted however what I don't buy into any kind of claim that the reason we won't win the title this season is entirely down to Grant (not saying you are saying this Star) - this squad is not good enough to win the league, Utd's is better and Arsenal's is better and even with Jose in charge I think we would have been in a battle for third spot.

Someone on another thread made some stupid post saying that uder Jose we were 2 points off the top when he was sacked and now we are 8 points - totally ignoring the fact that we were 2 points off the lead after 6 games and are now 8 points after 18 games - which pretty much means that statistically they have achieved the same this season. Now that alone as an argument is totally lame anyway but it is just an illustration of how pathetic the 'Have a go at grant' criticism sometimes gets to.

I am not aiming this at the likes of Bluenut, ethicalstrategy, Jack and Callista who although I disagree with a lot of what they are saying they at least use their brains to back up their position - it is aimed more at the people who, quite simply, haven't a bloody clue what they are talking about and simply hate Grant just for not being Jose.

Sorry, Loz. I totally do not agree with you.

Like Star, I believed our season was shot the day we sacked, Jose. If he were in charge, even if we did not start as brightly, I would still believe we had a chance. With Grant, while I won't pin it down entirely to him, I don't believe we have a chance and our best shot is at 3rd place. I believe it is down mostly to the "upheaval" of Jose's departure and the "learning period" under the guidance of the new manager - both for the man in charge as well as the players.

I also do NOT believe we will win the Champions League. We WILL have to play a top team with a top manager somewhere down the line and I don't believe Grant has the capability of out-thinking a top calibre manager. He has NOT been able to change games for us so far with anything he has done. I'm not saying he won't improve, and I'm not saying it might not be down to the lack of suitable personnel, but the reasons are not important.

I DO believe we have the players to win the league. It is crazy to think otherwise. But we need a manager who is capable to bringing the best out of them.

But I didn't mean to be all doom and gloom. Admittedly, I've lost a bit of appetite seeing as to how we've had the hope ripped out of us by a silly decision to sack Jose, but I also have to admit we've done much better than I expected. I'm proud of the players, and to a certain extent kudos to Grant for steadying the ship so quickly.

I can't believe the luck we've had with injuries, and now suspensions. To be without Cech, Cudicini, Terry, Carvalho, ACole, Essien, Lampard, Malouda, Ballack and Drogba (at various times) is just astounding to me. First, I'm thankful for Alex as he has done a very impressive job for us indeed when called upon. Second, Mikel has grown, and while his temper is still questionable, his potential is very exciting indeed. Third, I am still hopeful with Sheva. He has worked his socks off for us trying to disprove all the doubters, and while he has lost a bit of confidence and a lot of pace, his efforts are looking more and more likely to pull him out of the slump. Still, he really just doesn't fit into our "style" of play. Ballack returning from injury hopefully will help.

If any of the other top sides had to play without 4-5 of their best players for any length of time, they too would struggle. Our players and our team are to be commended.

So, here's hoping for a better 2008. I don't have anything personal against Grant. I just don't think he is the calibre of manager we should be looking at. I never did, and while I am warming to him, I get a distinctly "Ranieri" feel about him. I want a ruthless manager that will stand toe to toe with the best of them. He doesn't inspire confidence is I guess what I wanted to say. First things first, let's get all our injured and suspended players back and then see where that takes us. I guess the Cups are still a possibility if our big players step up a notch.

Cheers,

Butch

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I also do NOT believe we will win the Champions League.

Fair play to you Butch for saying that as the accepted SHEF line on it would appear to be that we may well win it but that it's a crappy competition which anyone could win given a bit of luck (just in case we do manage to pull it off).

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What's a SHEF line ?

Shed End Forum Favourite. Normally used when describing Obi Mikel. (I don't think Liam rates Mikel!!! - Must admit, although I think he is and has done okay - he hasn't done enough to win me over either - just seems in some peoples eyes he can do no wrong).

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What's a SHEF line ?

Shed End Forum Favourite. Normally used when describing Obi Mikel. (I don't think Liam rates Mikel!!! - Must admit, although I think he is and has done okay - he hasn't done enough to win me over either - just seems in some peoples eyes he can do no wrong).

Or to be more precise, Liam has issues with certain players and managers, sees no good in them and harps on about them in every post until they leave the club.

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I didn't realise Liam had so much influence!!

Do you think yuou could weave your magic on Cashley Liam icon_wink.gif

Don't worry about that, in 4/5 years time if Cole leaves, he will be here telling us how "the best LB in the world" couldn't perform for us and he knew it all along. He likes being the rebel and going against the masses because all of us are easily influenced while he sees every flaw in every player at the club.

JM - too arrogant

J. Cole - too popular

Terry - too teary eyed

Mikel - too...well every game passes by him so lets just ignore all the talent he does have

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Now I like Ballack, can't say the same for the Sheva we have, but their signing had a negative effect on the club, maybe not from a football point of view, but it certainly had an effect on the dressing room and was the day RA openly expressed it was his ball, his toy and his rules and in my opinion the day that it all started to turn sour.

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does anyone else here blame roman for our downfall ??

in a way he is the bloke with the money and is perfectly entitled to interfere with the team however he wants success and good football which we got in jose's first two seasons, but he then decided he wanted more involvement in the team and brought players jose mourinho did not want and players we had to accomodate into our team and change our formation and on top of that pay them an absurd amount of money in wages and transfer fee's

if he had kept his nose out i beleive we would still be the team of two years ago but then again without roman we wouldnt even be a team

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I don't know if all these stories about Roman messing with the team are totally founded. However, it wouldn't be the only case of such a thing happening in Europe, especially in big clubs, and any manager will have to expect that.

I also think that Jose's stubbourness has cost us a bit this season too. I also, in the back of my mind, think that Jose will continue to bounce from club to club, have short term (albeit marked) success, and then piss off to the next club. thus further increasing his status as "The Special One." I think he would be more special to stick at one club and ride out their success for a few long seasons

Scott

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Yeah Roman has completely ruined us hasn't he Mr Power!

He pays huge money so is entitled to run it as he likes. Sure. I think he liked Jose for a long time, but Jose is Jose and I think he became too much. Upsetting the FA and UEFA so much was possibly more important than anything else, even their personal relationship. Roman did not get Chelsea and help turn it into a world footballing power in order to be a 'pariah' at national and international meets.

I agree with mad_mac (in fact I tend to a lot...a worry? ;) ) Jose will flit from club to club, never lasting more than 4 years...generally three. He is a force of nature. He was good while it lasted but like heroin, it made you feel great but when you have weened yourself off, you realise it was getting destructive, and you are probably best rid.

Shame really. And I will always love the guy, and appreciate his contribution to our history, but I am increasingly of the opinion that a few choice signings in the window now, and we will be right on track.

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Yeah Roman has completely ruined us hasn't he Mr Power!

He pays huge money so is entitled to run it as he likes.

i did say that mate, but lets face it we have been playing sh*t ever for the last two seasons and that was since roman brought players jose didnt want, and jose is stubborn but wouldnt you be after building a side who had done won back to back titles and was on the verge of winning the champions league ?

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When you spend upwards of £500 million and buy the club as your personal fiefdom then you expect to be able to call the shots.

Roman must have been happy initially because he got the hottest coach at the time, he stole Kenyon from MU (thank you Fergie icon_rolleyes.gif ), spent money, he got instant results, titles, notoriety and so on.

But they said Roman always wanted to see 5-4 scorelines from his team in his heart so the Mourinho parting was only a matter of time. The fact he still hired Mourinho yearning for this tells me he was either (a) dumb (B) very short sighted or © he knew but didn't care - he just wanted to make Chelsea winners asap.

Perhaps he always planned to sack him three or four years in and then hire a more attack minded coach?

I think he meddled not personally but through all the people he brought into the club like Arnesen etc and I think they did disrupt Jose a great deal. The beginning of the end was the appointment of Arnesen and getting Sheva and to a lesser extent Ballack in to what was a well oiled machine on and off the pitch. And it was just made worse because of Jose's abrasive, stubborn personality. Then again, if you've won what he has you would feel pretty aggrieved having people far less qualified than you giving you orders. Trouble is if it's the owner you tell to sod off and mind their own business you risk getting the sack.

The saying if it aint broke don't fix it springs to mind.

But Jose is a bit like a heroin fix I agree, the high is unbelievable but the low afterwards is bad and fast. You can only have short sharp fixes and the it's time to move on to a new junkie to sell your wares.

Roman has now apparently hired someone who off the pitch at least tries to sell us sleeping pills. icon_wink.gif

So we will be more stable under Grant, no arguments, no bickering in the press, no rows over employee hirings and player buys and disposals and so on but who knows we may need a dose of the heroin fix again if things don't go well in a season or so?

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