Didn't he know Ralf Little (the Royle Family actor) who basically said this has been going on for years and that he had no time for Carlisle?

 

I know a former train driver thats had to deal with a suicide in this manor, someone stepped out from behind a bridge as he went through it, it's not something he got over lightly, it took many months of councilling to get over, and he never returned to the job that up til that point he had always enjoyed.

 

I have no time for Carlisle or anyone else for that matter that wants to involve someone else in their death.

Depression is a selfish, insular disease. The lack of connection with others is sadly part of it. I don't use the word 'selfish' to insult, but someone suicidal has no regards other than to destroy themselves regardless of the effect on others, suicide takes place when rationality and reason is lost.

I think Carlisle may have developed some form of psychosis over the years, he's changed and not for the better.

Edited March 25, 201511 yr by Droogba

Skrtel banned for 3 matches:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3011002/Martin-Skrtel-three-match-ban-upheld-FA-Liverpool-defender-s-stamp-David-Gea.html

And I trust an extra one for inferring the FA are a bunch of clowns? I mean, he's right, but still.

If you have a mental illness with up's and down's, I would have thought the last place you would want to be is in the public limelight ?

Jacob Steinberg names his Chelsea-heavy team of the season (so far):

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/mar/25/premier-league-team-season

 

De Gea

 

Clyne

Alderweireld

Terry

Azpilicueta

 

Matic

Fabregas

Sanchez

Hazard

 

Costa

Kane

 

Honourable mentions/subs:

Courtois, Bertrand, Koscielny, Cazorla, Coutinho, Eriksen, Aguero

If you have a mental illness with up's and down's, I would have thought the last place you would want to be is in the public limelight ?

Depends on the type of mania, many who crave the limelight do so due to insecurity. Robin Williams, Tony Hancock and so on.

If you have a mental illness with up's and down's, I would have thought the last place you would want to be is in the public limelight ?

Exactly.

He’s had a TV show about it, radio show and now is playing this latest event out in the media once again.

I’m not for one second questioning the impact and severity of mental illness or depression but when you cross that line where the people you involve in this now include innocent people who have no ties to yourself or family it then becomes a real concern.

Usually depression and the likes is a lonely and very private matter but in this case he seems to be using the media to highlight his lows as well as him trying to fight it. That to me is very strange and can only make things worse in a situation like this.

The disease is horrible, the way this guy has dragged people into to this by no fault of their own is even worse.

Depression is a serious illness and should be treated with the utmost respect. Not enough is done about it in society.

But.

And I feel bad saying this.

I don't like Clarke Carlisle and have found him to be self serving and rather desperate it his post-retirement years. Reconciling these two beliefs is very tricky.

 

It's a difficult one, isn't it? Depression (speaking from personal experience) is an absolutely crippling affliction, an increasingly prevalent one and one whose nature we don't really understand and one which we frankly have no clue how to tackle. I've suffered from it and pondered over it for years yet still don't have any particular insight or advice beyond 'never give up'. Right now I am going through a relatively happy and productive period, but I have no idea whether that's because of my own positive actions or whether it's some coincidence within my brain chemistry. That said, there is no reason to feel guilty about not liking a depressed person (as long as it isn't purely for that reason) - they are normal people like anybody else and equally capable of being selfish or being arseholes.

 

I think depression needs far more research into it, but I don't know whether it needs more attention - does educating people on a matter we don't understand particularly well help or does it reinforce the idea that depression is irreversible and encourage people who are simply going through terrible albeit temporary misery to misdiagnose themselves and ultimately cause themselves more problems? (e.g. some of the self-pitying nonsense you get on Tumblr and the like)

 

Are people who complain about their errant emotions justified and suffering horribly from an incurable mental illness or are they simply looking for attention - there are definitely cases of both within our society but the problem is that you can never tell. Sometimes I can't even tell within my own mind whether I am genuinely suffering or whether I'm just a lazy idiot who is sitting around feeling sorry for himself rather than actually doing anything about it. There is also an interesting dichotomy between the idea that suicide might be a selfish act, showing disregard for anyone who might care about you, and the idea that anyone who is that peak of depression is beyond reason and thus blameless.

 

Regarding the train issue: Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, something which isn't helped by their historical perspective of suicide as an honourable way to address personal failures. In order to deal with the outrageously prevalent problem of people jumping in front of trains, one approach they have taken is to fine a suicide-by-train's bereaved family 150 million yen as an incentive not to do it:

 

One such practice that frequently arises in casual conversation is the fining of the family after a jinshin jiko suicide. In a well-known policy, Japan Rail routinely charges the bereaved family 150 million yen ($2 million) or higher -- a financially devastating sum of money that JR bills as the total cost of the delay for the company and commuters.

 

http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=anth_honors (chapter 3)

Usually depression and the likes is a lonely and very private matter but in this case he seems to be using the media to highlight his lows as well as him trying to fight it. That to me is very strange and can only make things worse in a situation like this.

 

Maybe he thinks that recounting his own experiences publicly is a way to raise awareness? Maybe it pains him greatly to say these things in the public eye but genuinely thinks it might help people who are suffering from the same thing?

 

Like I said above, it is impossible to know. We can't access a window into somebody else's mind and we can't even assess whether raising awareness is actually an effective method of tackling depression.

If you have a mental illness with up's and down's, I would have thought the last place you would want to be is in the public limelight ?

 

Depends on the nature of the person. There are so many people who deal with their issues by seeking validation from others and that is very prevalent in the public eye.

 

Just look at someone like Robin Williams or any number of comedians/artists/actors etc. who suffered from mental illness/depression.

Maybe he thinks that recounting his own experiences publicly is a way to raise awareness? Maybe it pains him greatly to say these things in the public eye but genuinely thinks it might help people who are suffering from the same thing?

Like I said above, it is impossible to know. We can't access a window into somebody else's mind and we can't even assess whether raising awareness is actually an effective method of tackling depression.

That's all fine and well but when you throw yourself in front of a lorry and potentially causing deaths out with your own I think I can get a general gauge of what kind of person we are talking about here.

His actions and going by others who know him lead me to the conclusion this man is a selfish individual who has little regard for those around him.

Edited March 25, 201511 yr by Chelsbear

That's all fine and well but when you throw yourself in front of a lorry and potentially causing deaths out with your own I think I can get a general gauge of what kind of person we are talking about here.

His actions and going by others who know him lead me to the conclusion this man is a selfish individual who haslittle regard for others around him.

 

Well like I said, at the nadir of depression you are arguably beyond reason, beyond your usual faculties which would never allow you to do something so awful, simply possessed with this desire to end yourself and shackled with an unbearable weight which constantly makes you feel disgusting, with no reprieve. Without knowing and understanding more about the condition of depression and the individual circumstances I don't think we are really in a position to cast moral judgement. I've experienced some pretty awful lows myself for long periods of time, but while I've never implicated anyone else in any of it, maybe I just haven't been quite as low as those who have done. Again, without a total understanding of depression and without a window into the individual's mind, we really don't know anything.

 

I remember Alan Brazil calling Robin Williams 'selfish' following his suicide and claiming, on national radio no less, that he had 'no sympathy' for him. I was utterly outraged - what expertise does that fat, drunk, whoring idiot have, what moral high ground does he have and what right does have to air his uneducated opinions to a suggestible public? Remarkably he still has a job, and I would much rather listen to Clarke Carlisle (as sh*t a commentator as I think he is) than Alan Brazil's ignorance. If anyone thinks Carlisle is being self-indulgent then my advice would be not to listen to him.

Well like I said, at the nadir of depression you are arguably beyond reason, beyond your usual faculties which would never allow you to do something so awful, simply possessed with this desire to end yourself and shackled with an unbearable weight which constantly makes you feel disgusting, with no reprieve. Without knowing and understanding more about the condition of depression and the individual circumstances I don't think we are really in a position to cast moral judgement. I've experienced some pretty awful lows myself for long periods of time, but while I've never implicated anyone else in any of it, maybe I just haven't been quite as low as those who have done. Again, without a total understanding of depression and without a window into the individual's mind, we really don't know anything.

I remember Alan Brazil calling Robin Williams 'selfish' following his suicide and claiming, on national radio no less, that he had 'no sympathy' for him. I was utterly outraged - what expertise does that fat, drunk, whoring idiot have, what moral high ground does he have and what right does have to air his uneducated opinions to a suggestible public? Remarkably he still has a job, and I would much rather listen to Clarke Carlisle (as sh*t a commentator as I think he is) than Alan Brazil's ignorance. If anyone thinks Carlisle is being self-indulgent then my advice would be not to listen to him.

At least Robin Williams didn’t put anyone but his own life at risk with his successful attempt to take his own life.

I have sympathy for people dealing with this illness, that sympathy vanishes when they involve other people to the extent they are putting those people’s lives in danger.

Bottom line is his actions could easily have led to multiple fatalities and that for me is beyond contempt.

Former Aston Villa and Coventry striker Dion Dublin is to become a presenter on..... BBC's Homes Under the Hammer.

 

For those of your unfamiliar with Homes Under the Hammer the BBC website describes the show as:

 

"Programme in which experts uncover the various tricks of the property auction trade"

 

So erm, yeah. 

At least Robin Williams didn’t put anyone but his own life at risk with his successful attempt to take his own life.

I have sympathy for people dealing with this illness, that sympathy vanishes when they involve other people to the extent they are putting those people’s lives in danger.

Bottom line is his actions could easily have led to multiple fatalities and that for me is beyond contempt.

 

I understand what you're saying, judging from my own experiences I think that depression affects and even negates your free will and changes your character to quite a massive extent. The lack of self-awareness and good judgement which would already lead you to do something as irrational as end your own life suggest that your executive function's control over your actions is limited at best.

 

Whether that extends to a total loss of free will I don't know - the point is that we don't know enough about it and shouldn't cast judgement unless we are sure. Clearly it's an awful thing to happen, but whether we can hold Carlisle responsible we just don't know.

With my whole experience of people committing suicide confined to news reports (touch wood) my opinion maybe isn’t valid, but it always seems that suicides more often than not are carefully thought out. They make sure they kiss their mum good bye, they make sure they give absolutely no hint that it will be their last day on earth, they try to leave with as minimal of fuss as possible. The majority seem to commit the act in private with a note which details why they can’t go on, apologising for being what they deem worthless etc. Devastating, I can’t imagine that feeling and I pray I never do.

Then there are ones who make their anguish public and bring other victims into the fold, as someone else has mentioned, train drivers must be a constant nervous wreck. That person hasn’t killed their self, they’ve been killed by someone and I can’t help but think that is in the back of their mind when they throw their self in front of one.

It’s not really for me to comment on the types of suicides that individual picks, but I’ll throw my opinion in anyway, ignorant or not. I think the basic human decency is there regardless of your mind set and ensuring you don’t bring any other victims into your act is a choice.

Jacob Steinberg names his Chelsea-heavy team of the season (so far):

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/mar/25/premier-league-team-season

 

De Gea

 

Clyne

Alderweireld

Terry

Azpilicueta

 

Matic

Fabregas

Sanchez

Hazard

 

Costa

Kane

 

Honourable mentions/subs:

Courtois, Bertrand, Koscielny, Cazorla, Coutinho, Eriksen, Aguero

 

I used to talk to Jacob quite frequently when I was at The Guardian... Always did like him, knew his football *ahem*

^ Pretty tough to argue with that team really. I think other honourable mentions could be Berahino, Downing, Skrtel and Herrera. Coquelin too if he'd been integrated into their side earlier, he's been terrific since December.

I understand what you're saying, judging from my own experiences I think that depression affects and even negates your free will and changes your character to quite a massive extent. The lack of self-awareness and good judgement which would already lead you to do something as irrational as end your own life suggest that your executive function's control over your actions is limited at best.

 

Whether that extends to a total loss of free will I don't know - the point is that we don't know enough about it and shouldn't cast judgement unless we are sure. Clearly it's an awful thing to happen, but whether we can hold Carlisle responsible we just don't know.

 

Some excellent posts and can only echo what you've said. What depression seems to reveal is that this notion of there being 'rational thought' or 'human decency' that isn't completely open to interpretation is a myth. Depression changes the way people think and the utterly unthinkable or irrational becomes the obvious choice.

 

It's never a selfish decision in my opinion because those who genuinely see it as the only way often aren't capable of making that distinction. 

I remember Alan Brazil calling Robin Williams 'selfish' following his suicide and claiming, on national radio no less, that he had 'no sympathy' for him. I was utterly outraged - what expertise does that fat, drunk, whoring idiot have, what moral high ground does he have and what right does have to air his uneducated opinions to a suggestible public? Remarkably he still has a job, and I would much rather listen to Clarke Carlisle (as sh*t a commentator as I think he is) than Alan Brazil's ignorance. If anyone thinks Carlisle is being self-indulgent then my advice would be not to listen to him.

Got to say you lost me here Ploks.

I too found Brazil's comments ill-judged and borne of ignorance.

However, if you're asking people to show compassion for somebody who, through depression, jeapordised the life and wellbeing of a perfectly innocent stranger, you might want to show compassion towards Brazil too.

As an aside, the possibility exists that Carlisle wasn't trying to take his own life and that he was merely drunk.

At least Robin Williams didn’t put anyone but his own life at risk with his successful attempt to take his own life.

I have sympathy for people dealing with this illness, that sympathy vanishes when they involve other people to the extent they are putting those people’s lives in danger.

Bottom line is his actions could easily have led to multiple fatalities and that for me is beyond contempt.

There can be no victimless suicide, imagine the people having to deal with his body (Williams), the thoughts in his family's mind.

When someone is at the point of suicide they are not thinking about consequences for others, the aim is to self destruct regardless of how that may affect or endanger, many, others.

Edited March 25, 201511 yr by Droogba

There can be no victimless suicide, imagine the people having to deal with his body (Williams), the thoughts in his family's mind

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about putting innocent peoples lives in danger.

There is a distinct difference from loved ones finding your body than someone throwing himself in trafic and potentially causing countless deaths and injuries to people who are strangers to that individual.

I thought that was fairly obvious from my post?

Edited March 25, 201511 yr by Chelsbear

With my whole experience of people committing suicide confined to news reports (touch wood) my opinion maybe isn’t valid, but it always seems that suicides more often than not are carefully thought out. They make sure they kiss their mum good bye, they make sure they give absolutely no hint that it will be their last day on earth, they try to leave with as minimal of fuss as possible. The majority seem to commit the act in private with a note which details why they can’t go on, apologising for being what they deem worthless etc. Devastating, I can’t imagine that feeling and I pray I never do.

Then there are ones who make their anguish public and bring other victims into the fold, as someone else has mentioned, train drivers must be a constant nervous wreck. That person hasn’t killed their self, they’ve been killed by someone and I can’t help but think that is in the back of their mind when they throw their self in front of one.

It’s not really for me to comment on the types of suicides that individual picks, but I’ll throw my opinion in anyway, ignorant or not. I think the basic human decency is there regardless of your mind set and ensuring you don’t bring any other victims into your act is a choice.

It is a difficult one, the only common link between suicides is that they are the ultimate anti-social act.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about putting innocent peoples lives in danger.

There is a distinct difference from loved ones finding your body than someone throwing himself in trafic and potentially causing countless deaths and injuries to people who are strangers to that individual.

I thought that was fairly obvious from my post?

I understand,the mind the moment before suicide is disconnected, void of concern for others, it is a selfish anti social act of ultimate anger against one's self even to the detriment of others. We all struggle to process it.

However, if you're asking people to show compassion for somebody who, through depression, jeapordised the life and wellbeing of a perfectly innocent stranger...

Summed it up for me Davey.

If someone I loved was in another car at the time or was a victim of someone else's suicide attempt (whether they perished or remained emotionally traumatised for life) I don't think I could show any compassion or sympathy for that individual or have the same rationale that some are showing. Perhaps someone like Blue Daze could, and that’s great, I hope he’s never in that situation.