I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about putting innocent peoples lives in danger.

There is a distinct difference from loved ones finding your body than someone throwing himself in trafic and potentially causing countless deaths and injuries to people who are strangers to that individual.

I thought that was fairly obvious from my post?

 

It's hard for people to think about that at their darkest moment though. Walking in front of a train is probably seen as a fairly instantaneous death, especially in this country.

 

You don't have to worry about having a long-drawn out death, you don't have to worry about someone you care about finding you and further impacting them and you have to bear in mind that making that last step is probably a momentary decision. 

Well like I said, at the nadir of depression you are arguably beyond reason, beyond your usual faculties which would never allow you to do something so awful, simply possessed with this desire to end yourself and shackled with an unbearable weight which constantly makes you feel disgusting, with no reprieve. Without knowing and understanding more about the condition of depression and the individual circumstances I don't think we are really in a position to cast moral judgement. I've experienced some pretty awful lows myself for long periods of time, but while I've never implicated anyone else in any of it, maybe I just haven't been quite as low as those who have done. Again, without a total understanding of depression and without a window into the individual's mind, we really don't know anything.

 

I remember Alan Brazil calling Robin Williams 'selfish' following his suicide and claiming, on national radio no less, that he had 'no sympathy' for him. I was utterly outraged - what expertise does that fat, drunk, whoring idiot have, what moral high ground does he have and what right does have to air his uneducated opinions to a suggestible public? Remarkably he still has a job, and I would much rather listen to Clarke Carlisle (as sh*t a commentator as I think he is) than Alan Brazil's ignorance. If anyone thinks Carlisle is being self-indulgent then my advice would be not to listen to him.

I used the word, but qualified it meaning concerned with the self to the exclusion of everything and everyone.

In the far east they have changed the colour of station lighting to great effect, the research and results are on line somewhere.

Depression is still not as understood as it needs to be and suicide is still a stigma in many ways.

Got to say you lost me here Ploks.

I too found Brazil's comments ill-judged and borne of ignorance.

However, if you're asking people to show compassion for somebody who, through depression, jeapordised the life and wellbeing of a perfectly innocent stranger, you might want to show compassion towards Brazil too.

As an aside, the possibility exists that Carlisle wasn't trying to take his own life and that he was merely drunk.

 

I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at - is it that Brazil's comments might have been borne out of [an understandable] righteous indignation at a very serious situation/course of action and state of mind he was clearly extremely ignorant of? Or is there something in Brazil's personal life of which I am yet unaware?

 

I can understand someone getting angry at something which clearly has quite serious ramifications, what I can't tolerate is someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about passing themselves off as an authority on said serious situation. Discussing it among people you know is one thing - broadcasting this opinion on a public radio station which has 3.2 million listeners to a suggestible public is quite another.

 

It's possible that Carlisle was just drunk and using depression as an excuse, it's not like he doesn't have a past with alcohol, then again it's not like he doesn't [at least claim to] have a past with depression and suicide either. That said, I have no reason to believe that - it's equally if not more possible that he's just an extremely troubled man who did something incredibly stupid when he wasn't in his right mind. Like I have repeatedly said, if we don't know (which we don't) we can't judge.

It's hard for people to think about that at their darkest moment though. Walking in front of a train is probably seen as a fairly instantaneous death, especially in this country.

You don't have to worry about having a long-drawn out death, you don't have to worry about someone you care about finding you and further impacting them and you have to bear in mind that making that last step is probably a momentary decision.

If you can take the time to think of a way to kill yourself like finding a railway or a busy road then you can certainly take the time to think of what that act could and would cause.

I have no more sympathy for someone like this guy than say a drunk who mows down a person while driving.

Both causing unnecessary risk to innocent lives due to their own personal problems/illness.

IMO Clarke should be detained for the public’s safety, as Gem says if it was my family member who was injured due to the actions of someone like this I'd be bloody livid.

If this is a route you want to go down then there are countless ways to do this without endangering the lives of the public, it’s a selfish and heart-breaking action at the best of times but in this case it’s downright disgusting IMO.

I understand fully it’s an illness and know plenty of examples in my own lifetime of people close to me and their struggles with depression.

Oh dear this isn't cheery.

This could touch any of our lives. The mourning process is a whole different ball game when the death is suicide. Sometimes ' the signs were there', sometimes it was out of the blue.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/international-mens-day-2014-suicide-rape-paternity-leave-key-issues-tackle-1475584

Summed it up for me Davey.

If someone I loved was in another car at the time or was a victim of someone else's suicide attempt (whether they perished or remained emotionally traumatised for life) I don't think I could show any compassion or sympathy for that individual or have the same rationale that some are showing. Perhaps someone like Blue Daze could, and that’s great, I hope he’s never in that situation.

 

Well in all fairness, as horrific as that scenario would be, bereaved loved ones aren't really expected to be rational or forgiving; they would likely want the punishment to be cruel and unusual, which is why families of murder/manslaughter (etc.) victims have no legal rights in these situations.

 

To some extent I feel like this debate is going around in a circle with both sides making valid points. Here is a very interesting academic journal about the effect depression can have on somebody's free will, I hope it will elucidate the point I am trying to make better than I can:

 

http://www.academia.edu/458305/Depression_and_the_Phenomenology_of_Free_Will

If you can take the time to think of a way to kill yourself like finding a railway or a busy road then you can certainly take the time to think of what that act could and would cause.

 

 

That's obviously your opinion but unfortunately you aren't the arbiter of the mentally ill mind. It's not like there's a health and safety checklist for committing suicide.

Yes, a lot of thought can go into a suicide, but it's the type of thought that does not cross over to the well-being of others.

If any one wants to they can PM me about this as I think Ploks is right about going round in circles.

Well in all fairness, as horrific as that scenario would be, bereaved loved ones aren't really expected to be rational or forgiving; they would likely want the punishment to be cruel and unusual, which is why families of murder/manslaughter (etc.) victims have no legal rights in these situations.

To some extent I feel like this debate is going around in a circle with both sides making valid points. Here is a very interesting academic journal about the effect depression can have on somebody's free will, I hope it will elucidate the point I am trying to make better than I can:

http://www.academia.edu/458305/Depression_and_the_Phenomenology_of_Free_Will

Will have a read of that later, thanks for the link.

People generally have differing opinions on certain subjects for one reason or another and cannot be moved, whether it through either belief, stubbornness (not in a ‘putting your fingers in your ears way’), evidence etc… and I think suicide and depression are two such examples.

A close family member of mine has bi-polar and I have little sympathy because of how much it drains another family member that they constantly put on. I also have a now-ex family member who says they suffer from depression. They don’t, they’re just f*cking miserable and after looking at their mother I blame genetics and being brought up by a miserable wet blanket. Anyway, the word is thrown round too much and it annoys me when someone says they’re suffering from an illness when they’re not, maybe that's why I'm so unsympathetic. In everything.

All this talk of depression and suicide is all well and good but it seems to be detracting from the main topic of discussion. 

 

Will Dion Dublin be a success in his new role as a presenter on Homes Under The Hammer? 

All this talk of depression and suicide is all well and good but it seems to be detracting from the main topic of discussion.

Will Dion Dublin be a success in his new role as a presenter on Homes Under The Hammer?

It's one of my guilty pleasures so I'm a bit f*cked off, I love Martin and Lucy.

Will have a read of that later, thanks for the link.

People generally have differing opinions on certain subjects for one reason or another and cannot be moved, whether it through either belief, stubbornness (not in a ‘putting your fingers in your ears way’), evidence etc… and I think suicide and depression are two such examples.

A close family member of mine has bi-polar and I have little sympathy because of how much it drains another family member that they constantly put on. I also have a now-ex family member who says they suffer from depression. They don’t, they’re just f*cking miserable and after looking at their mother I blame genetics and being brought up by a miserable wet blanket. Anyway, the word is thrown round too much and it annoys me when someone says they’re suffering from an illness when they’re not.

That's it Gem and so those who fake, or think they have depression, May addressing true depression a whole lot more difficult.

Clinical depression is not subjective or opinion, there is medical evidence and research that is on going. In recent years it's been found that genes can alter to take a depressive profile which was unknown before.

Reactive depression, someone we know was so sniffy about it, telling us they were 'incapable of breakdown', years later their beautiful Oxbridge daughter suffered and still does.

There but for the grace and all that.

All this talk of depression and suicide is all well and good but it seems to be detracting from the main topic of discussion.

Will Dion Dublin be a success in his new role as a presenter on Homes Under The Hammer?

I will watch it for him

Semi-related to this discussion, there was a very good new Louis Theroux documentary on BBC2 the other day where he goes into an American mental institution to meet patients who were sent there after committing violent crimes. One of them was a man who tried to commit suicide by attacking a cop with an iron rod with the hope that the cop would shoot him dead. I found it impossible not to sympathise with him, there is something deeply wrong with him and it is not his fault. 

A close family member of mine has bi-polar and I have little sympathy because of how much it drains another family member that they constantly put on. I also have a now-ex family member who says they suffer from depression. They don’t, they’re just f*cking miserable and after looking at their mother I blame genetics and being brought up by a miserable wet blanket. Anyway, the word is thrown round too much and it annoys me when someone says they’re suffering from an illness when they’re not, maybe that's why I'm so unsympathetic. In everything.

 

Are you joking in that last couple of sentences?

Semi-related to this discussion, there was a very good new Louis Theroux documentary on BBC2 the other day where he goes into an American mental institution to meet patients who were sent there after committing violent crimes. One of them was a man who tried to commit suicide by attacking a cop with an iron rod with the hope that the cop would shoot him dead. I found it impossible not to sympathise with him, there is something deeply wrong with him and it is not his fault. 

 

Suicide by cop. 

 

Not as uncommon as you would think. 

It's a difficult one, isn't it? Depression (speaking from personal experience) is an absolutely crippling affliction, an increasingly prevalent one and one whose nature we don't really understand and one which we frankly have no clue how to tackle. I've suffered from it and pondered over it for years yet still don't have any particular insight or advice beyond 'never give up'. Right now I am going through a relatively happy and productive period, but I have no idea whether that's because of my own positive actions or whether it's some coincidence within my brain chemistry. That said, there is no reason to feel guilty about not liking a depressed person (as long as it isn't purely for that reason) - they are normal people like anybody else and equally capable of being selfish or being arseholes.

I think depression needs far more research into it, but I don't know whether it needs more attention - does educating people on a matter we don't understand particularly well help or does it reinforce the idea that depression is irreversible and encourage people who are simply going through terrible albeit temporary misery to misdiagnose themselves and ultimately cause themselves more problems? (e.g. some of the self-pitying nonsense you get on Tumblr and the like)

Are people who complain about their errant emotions justified and suffering horribly from an incurable mental illness or are they simply looking for attention - there are definitely cases of both within our society but the problem is that you can never tell. Sometimes I can't even tell within my own mind whether I am genuinely suffering or whether I'm just a lazy idiot who is sitting around feeling sorry for himself rather than actually doing anything about it. There is also an interesting dichotomy between the idea that suicide might be a selfish act, showing disregard for anyone who might care about you, and the idea that anyone who is that peak of depression is beyond reason and thus blameless.

Regarding the train issue: Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, something which isn't helped by their historical perspective of suicide as an honourable way to address personal failures. In order to deal with the outrageously prevalent problem of people jumping in front of trains, one approach they have taken is to fine a suicide-by-train's bereaved family 150 million yen as an incentive not to do it:

http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=anth_honors (chapter 3)

I've been there. A very well thought out post.

I've been there. A very well thought out post.

 

Remarkably well-composed posts in fact. Horrible subject but one that society as a large most certainly needs to have a frank discussion about.

Edited March 25, 201511 yr by Blue Daze

Remarkably well-composed posts in fact. Horrible subject but one that society as a large most certainly needs to have a frank discussion about.

Agreed. My view on the issue is formed by a conversation a few years ago with a train driver who had seen people he was about to run down (in his train) change their minds and try, too late, to get out of the way.

Agreed. My view on the issue is formed by a conversation a few years ago with a train driver who had seen people he was about to run down (in his train) change their minds and try, too late, to get out of the way.

 

That's horrendous but just shows the confusion that people in that state must be in. I think if people can understand half of their own mind then they're doing well for themselves. Trying to work out what someone might be thinking at the worst moment in their life....above my pay grade.

Sorry if it's already been posted, but have you guys seen this interview with the guy that hit Carlisle? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/clarke-carlisle-suicide-bid-lorry-5336648

 

Had to get bits of glass removed from his eyes and has to live with that trauma for the rest of his life. Really horrible thing to go through.

 

I admit that I don't have enough knowledge of depression to pass judgement on Carlisle, however I find it practically impossible to sympathise with a guy that has been caught drunk driving several times. 

Sorry if it's already been posted, but have you guys seen this interview with the guy that hit Carlisle? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/clarke-carlisle-suicide-bid-lorry-5336648

 

Had to get bits of glass removed from his eyes and has to live with that trauma for the rest of his life. Really horrible thing to go through.

 

I admit that I don't have enough knowledge of depression to pass judgement on Carlisle, however I find it practically impossible to sympathise with a guy that has been caught drunk driving several times.

No winners in these circumstances.

Are you joking in that last couple of sentences?

In what way? Disliking when people say they're 'depressed' when they've had a bad day or me being a very unsympathetic person in general?

In what way? Disliking when people say they're 'depressed' when they've had a bad day or me being a very unsympathetic person in general?

Maybe you're just honest Gem, we can all walk in someone's shoes, but we won't feel where they pinch.

Gem's right as people can use words like 'depressed' or 'stressed' when they mean 'a bit sad' or 'slightly over-worked'. People who are genuinely ill but who want attention because of it are also very wearing.

I've been ill in the past and, as Droogers said earlier, it makes you anti social and you want to hide away and not want to tell others how you are.

Having been ill in the past (sometimes badly) I've little time for those who repeatedly 'attempt' suicide; either do it or don't but stop making such a song and dance about it. That's very harsh but honestly what I think.