On 07/01/2022 at 20:06, Argo said:

This nonsense again. Given I'm constantly defending "unfashionable" players like Mendy and Mount that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. I just find this Rice loving truly bizzare, assuming we're in a 343 for the long haul there's better suited players for our system even in the same England Euro 2020 squad (Phillips and Bellingham) or on our books already (Gallagher). 

So even if you're on the train of thought of wanting Jorginho replaced, out of every midfielder in the whole world, why Declan Rice? And for over £100m aswell, stick another £20-40m on top of that we potentially have a genuine shot of getting De Jong out of Barcelona.

Also Moyes compact/underdog system is perfect for defensive minded players, his Everton system duped City and Real Madrid into thinking Joleon Lescott and Thomas Gravesen respectively were players good enough for them. 

Rice has had chances to "prove" himself though. He would probably be here now if he didn't sign a big contract with West Ham. 

Players should be held responsible for their own decision making, Rice has only got himself to blame for being stuck there and not having regular chances to prove himself at the top level.

Mendy and Mount unfashionable? What on earth are you talking about? Suppose we can just wait for him to go to another team because the price tag is too high like we did with VVD and see what happens, time will tell.

7 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

What best league in Europe did Jorginho prove himself in?

Why does that matter when he's proven himself since?

It's a sh*tty argument and as much as some doesn't want to accept it we wouldn't have won the Champions League without Jorginho. And Italy wouldn't have won the Euros without him.

Rightfully won UEFA Player of the year and rightfully finished on the podium for the Ballon D'Or, first time for a Chelsea player since Lampard.

He's a fantastic football player.

 

 

18 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Mendy and Mount unfashionable? What on earth are you talking about? Suppose we can just wait for him to go to another team because the price tag is too high like we did with VVD and see what happens, time will tell.

Not the "kool trendy" names like you're implying is the reason for any doubt with Rice.

At the risk of being accused of that myself, if we're going big on a PL and/or English midfielder, Tielmens or Bellingham are much more suited to the way we play.

25 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Why does that matter when he's proven himself since?

It's a sh*tty argument and as much as some doesn't want to accept it we wouldn't have won the Champions League without Jorginho. And Italy wouldn't have won the Euros without him.

Rightfully won UEFA Player of the year and rightfully finished on the podium for the Ballon D'Or, first time for a Chelsea player since Lampard.

He's a fantastic football player.

 

 

Its his argument not mine. He argued Jorginho is a proven player and Rice is not. I simply pointed out that the love of his life was unproven before joining us, therefore he shouldn't hold such a thing against Rice. I agree its a sh*tty srgument, bring it up with Gol. 

19 minutes ago, Argo said:

Not the "kool trendy" names like you're implying is the reason for any doubt with Rice.

At the risk of being accused of that myself, if we're going big on a PL and/or English midfielder, Tielmens or Bellingham are much more suited to the way we play.

Mendy and Mount are two of the most popular people within the Chelsea squad??? Agree with Bellingham, would love to see him in a Chelsea shirt. I'd argue the players you are listing are more players to challenge the Kova/Kante role, moreso than competition for Jorginho. Tielemans usually has someone sitting next to him like Ndidi or Soumare.

2 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Mendy and Mount are two of the most popular people within the Chelsea squad??? Agree with Bellingham, would love to see him in a Chelsea shirt. I'd argue the players you are listing are more players to challenge the Kova/Kante role, moreso than competition for Jorginho. Tielemans usually has someone sitting next to him like Ndidi or Soumare.

Tielmens has played defensive midfield before, he can definitely play the role as the deeper player in a midfield two especially next to Kante. 

What I mean by unfashionable is by the general population. I've seen posts this year arguing Kepa should get another chance at number one and on another forum I said Mendy was the world's best keeper after the Brentford game and got 6 laugh reactions, if we signed Ter Stegan and he had the exact same 18 months as Mendy did that opinion would be common consensus.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Tielmens has played defensive midfield before, he can definitely play the role as the deeper player in a midfield two especially next to Kante. 

What I mean by unfashionable is by the general population. I've seen posts this year arguing Kepa should get another chance at number one and on another forum I said Mendy was the world's best keeper after the Brentford game and got 6 laugh reactions, if we signed Ter Stegan and he had the exact same 18 months as Mendy did that opinion would be common consensus.

He's played there before but doesn't mean he's suited to that being his best position in a pivot.

Everywhere i look its pretty common that people think Mendy is in the top 2 or 3 keepers in the world currently.

4 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Its his argument not mine. He argued Jorginho is a proven player and Rice is not. I simply pointed out that the love of his life was unproven before joining us, therefore he shouldn't hold such a thing against Rice. I agree its a sh*tty srgument, bring it up with Gol. 

You trying to say out how Jorginho was unproven before joining us, doesn't actually mean that he really was unproven before joining us. Just to point out the difference there.

In short, he isn't a top player because of Chelsea but he's a top player that chose Chelsea, as I pointed out he could have easily been the same for Man City as well. Until Rice actually does something part from finishing top 6, Jorginho is clear.

5 hours ago, Sindre said:

Why does that matter when he's proven himself since?

It's a sh*tty argument and as much as some doesn't want to accept it we wouldn't have won the Champions League without Jorginho. And Italy wouldn't have won the Euros without him.

Rightfully won UEFA Player of the year and rightfully finished on the podium for the Ballon D'Or, first time for a Chelsea player since Lampard.

He's a fantastic football player.

 

 

It really doesn't matter but he was trying to say that Jorginho is only proven because he's our player, like you know automatically he's good because he's in Chelsea regardless of his own quality... So he was actually trying to say the same old "REPLACE JORGINHO WITH GILMOUR AND HE WILL ALSO STRUGGLE IN NORWICH" type of argument 

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Edited January 10, 20223 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

It really doesn't matter but he was trying to say that Jorginho is only proven because he's our player, like you know automatically he's good because he's in Chelsea regardless of his own quality... So he was actually trying to say the same old "REPLACE JORGINHO WITH GILMOUR AND HE WILL ALSO STRUGGLE IN NORWICH" type of argument 

I saw a post in the Euros saying the only people who think Jorginho is sh*t are Arsenal fans who rate Granit Xhaka and Chelsea fans that want Declan Rice.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

I saw a post in the Euros saying the only people who think Jorginho is sh*t are Arsenal fans who rate Granit Xhaka and Chelsea fans that want Declan Rice.

Checks out lol

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

You trying to say out how Jorginho was unproven before joining us, doesn't actually mean that he really was unproven before joining us. Just to point out the difference there.

In short, he isn't a top player because of Chelsea but he's a top player that chose Chelsea, as I pointed out he could have easily been the same for Man City as well. Until Rice actually does something part from finishing top 6, Jorginho is clear.

I’ll repeat it again, as you don’t seem to be grasping the it. Please explain what Jorginho had proven before coming to Chelsea other than bottling a league title? Or is the word of Gol absolute? 

Noticed Jorginho wasn’t nominated for FIFA men’s player of the year, how you holding up @Gol15 ? How many holes you put in the plasterboard of your bedroom walls?

11 hours ago, Argo said:

I saw a post in the Euros saying the only people who think Jorginho is sh*t are Arsenal fans who rate Granit Xhaka and Chelsea fans that want Declan Rice.

Hmm has @just been champion Rice? I must have missed that.

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I’ll repeat it again, as you don’t seem to be grasping the it. Please explain what Jorginho had proven before coming to Chelsea other than bottling a league title? Or is the word of Gol absolute? 

But that's the difference right there, first chance Jorginho got he made damm sure he was getting out of Napoli and to a club that gave him the platform to "prove himself". He could have kept signing new deals giving ADL more and more power but he got himself out and has been rewarded.

Lampard wanted to bring Rice in and give him the exact same opportunity but he made himself unattainable by signing a big new contract with West Ham.

Decision making is a big part of a player's career and they should be held responsible for that. Rice only has himself to blame he hasn't (potentially) got a UCL gold medal round his neck.

Rice will have two years left in the summer which gives him another decision, he either runs his contract down to the point West Ham have little choice but to negotiate a decent price with us or he signs another new one which will trap/commit him there in his prime years. Balls in his court and if he choses the latter then he shouldn't be treated as a victim when he's knocking on 30 without any major honours.

6 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I’ll repeat it again, as you don’t seem to be grasping the it. Please explain what Jorginho had proven before coming to Chelsea other than bottling a league title? Or is the word of Gol absolute? 

Like someone else pointed out already, it's irrelevant since after all said and done Jorginho proved himself to be a top player already and that's despite not winning a league title. In any case, becoming the second best team in one of the top 4 leagues in Europe maybe doesn't matter to you for whatever reason but that objectively does mean that anyone that played a big role there did become an established player and by all means a proven player.
I heard the old argument that "we won't win anything with Jorginho", that changed when we won the Europa League into, "we won't win anything big with Jorginho" that further developed after our CL title into "we won't win the league with Jorginho." In other words, no matter what we win or don't win with Jorginho, there is always someone like you out there trying to argue that he's not a good player so I prefer to side with the 2 best managers in the league Tuchel and Pep that both see him as a top player.

About what he has proven prior to coming here though, what you present is a flawed argument since you're arguing that a player is only proven after he wins a league title yet you override that by saying that Jorginho became proven automatically when he came here, despite Chelsea not winning the domestic title since 2016/17, before Jorginho became our player. Which is ironic because 2017/18 is when we finished 5th in the league, at that time Napoli finished with 91 points in Serie A and everyone that knows anything about this game said that they played one of the most beautiful football styles in whole Europe.

Jorginho started in the second league, Serie B and helped his team to get promoted to Serie A after 11 years. In his first Serie A season Hellas Verona finished 10th and he signed for Napoli. Hellas Verona survived 1 season more in Serie A after Jorginho left for Napoli.
After his first season in Napoli, Benitez got sacked after a 5th position finish. In fact Jorginho has failed to finish below top 3 in Serie A after Sarri took over Napoli and as it stands he didn't finish below top 4 in the Premier League either.

And to bottle a league title you would need to be the favorite to win it, something that historically a team from south Italy hasn't really been so when Juventus managed to win 30/38 games it's actually them that at the time just continued to dominate football domestically, the fact that Napoli managed to compete with them was an achievement in itself. The title race for Napoli was lost prior to them being in any position to bottle it, more than 10 rounds prior to the league's finish which isn't bottling anything but just not having a very much perfect season like Juventus was having at the time. After all it was Koulibaly that first scored in the last minuted against Juventus, only to get a red card at the very start of the next match against Fiorentina which made Napoli lose the game so you claiming that Jorginho bottled the league title couldn't be further from the truth. What it took for Napoli to lose the league title was just a small inconsistency where they managed to lose and play a draw in 2 consecutive games twice, their record in the last 10 games is the same as Juventus.

As soon as their form dropped by not winning in 2 games in a row they were losing the top spot, that's not bottling the league title, that's the very minimum loss of form that a team can have. And if anyone managed to bottle that season it was Koulibaly and not Jorginho.

Edited January 11, 20223 yr by Gol15

3 hours ago, Argo said:

But that's the difference right there, first chance Jorginho got he made damm sure he was getting out of Napoli and to a club that gave him the platform to "prove himself". He could have kept signing new deals giving ADL more and more power but he got himself out and has been rewarded.

Lampard wanted to bring Rice in and give him the exact same opportunity but he made himself unattainable by signing a big new contract with West Ham.

Decision making is a big part of a player's career and they should be held responsible for that. Rice only has himself to blame he hasn't (potentially) got a UCL gold medal round his neck.

Rice will have two years left in the summer which gives him another decision, he either runs his contract down to the point West Ham have little choice but to negotiate a decent price with us or he signs another new one which will trap/commit him there in his prime years. Balls in his court and if he choses the latter then he shouldn't be treated as a victim when he's knocking on 30 without any major honours.

When Lampard wanted him the price was 70m if I remember which meant that they didn't want to sell him, similar to how in the most recent times they said 100m is the price. But I guess according to some that's justified because well, Rice at least played a few years in the PL so 100m is fair! I mean in comparison to the the price tag of 50m like Jorginho that managed to finish top 2 in Serie A which was somehow signing an unproven player...

6 hours ago, Argo said:

But that's the difference right there, first chance Jorginho got he made damm sure he was getting out of Napoli and to a club that gave him the platform to "prove himself". He could have kept signing new deals giving ADL more and more power but he got himself out and has been rewarded.

Lampard wanted to bring Rice in and give him the exact same opportunity but he made himself unattainable by signing a big new contract with West Ham.

Decision making is a big part of a player's career and they should be held responsible for that. Rice only has himself to blame he hasn't (potentially) got a UCL gold medal round his neck.

Rice will have two years left in the summer which gives him another decision, he either runs his contract down to the point West Ham have little choice but to negotiate a decent price with us or he signs another new one which will trap/commit him there in his prime years. Balls in his court and if he choses the latter then he shouldn't be treated as a victim when he's knocking on 30 without any major honours.

Jorginho made sure he was going to a club that was paying him 10x his Napoli wage. Everyone wants to come to the Prem, that's no surprise. He came to us after that sh*te season under Conte when we were in the Europa league. If the transfer to City had gone through i would agree he went to prove himself, the fact he left a team in the CL for a team in the Europa league proves he came for the money. We're simply a cup team at the moment sadly, haven't challenged for a single league title in 5 years.

I think the fact teams are looking willing to pay the £100m price tag of Rice says a lot about him, do you think we could get close to £100m for Jorginho? I guess we'll find out soon enough what teams are willing to pay seeing as him and his agent flirt with going back to Italy every single summer. 

If Rice doesn't come back to Chelsea he either goes City and wins everything or goes Utd for the money. 

17 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Jorginho made sure he was going to a club that was paying him 10x his Napoli wage. Everyone wants to come to the Prem, that's no surprise. He came to us after that sh*te season under Conte when we were in the Europa league. If the transfer to City had gone through i would agree he went to prove himself, the fact he left a team in the CL for a team in the Europa league proves he came for the money. We're simply a cup team at the moment sadly, haven't challenged for a single league title in 5 years.

I think the fact teams are looking willing to pay the £100m price tag of Rice says a lot about him, do you think we could get close to £100m for Jorginho? I guess we'll find out soon enough what teams are willing to pay seeing as him and his agent flirt with going back to Italy every single summer. 

If Rice doesn't come back to Chelsea he either goes City and wins everything or goes Utd for the money. 

He came here for the money but if he had gone to Man City it would be to prove himself?

So if we buy Rice for 100m he also would be taking the money and not going to prove himself either then. That's your bullsh*t logic there, time after time.

You went from claiming that Jorginho was unproven to claim that he only took the money, as if he wouldn't have an even bigger paycheck in Man City. It would have been easier for him to join them but he clearly wanted to prove himself and to challenge himself as well.

Edited January 11, 20223 yr by Gol15

I am not Jorginho's biggest fan but I don't think there is much value in basing an argument on someone being willing to pay 100m for Rice but nobody would for Jorginho. The Rice potential transfer is inflated massively due to his nationality and age.

 

We wouldn't get 100m for Kante either and he is three times the player of both of them.

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Like someone else pointed out already, it's irrelevant since after all said and done Jorginho proved himself to be a top player already and that's despite not winning a league title. In any case, becoming the second best team in one of the top 4 leagues in Europe maybe doesn't matter to you for whatever reason but that objectively does mean that anyone that played a big role there did become an established player and by all means a proven player. Bakayoko dominated with Monaco actually winning a top 5 league and reaching a CL semi. Proven player confirmed.
I heard the old argument that "we won't win anything with Jorginho", that changed when we won the Europa League into, "we won't win anything big with Jorginho" that further developed after our CL title into "we won't win the league with Jorginho." In other words, no matter what we win or don't win with Jorginho, there is always someone like you out there trying to argue that he's not a good player so I prefer to side with the 2 best managers in the league Tuchel and Pep that both see him as a top player. We're a cup team now, relying on the likes of Mount to carry us to and in finals. You point to Jorginho winning the Euros a lot but Italy won that in spite of Jorginho, not because of him. Should have been sent off in extra time and missed a penalty in the shoot out. 

About what he has proven prior to coming here though, what you present is a flawed argument since you're arguing that a player is only proven after he wins a league title yet you override that by saying that Jorginho became proven automatically when he came here, despite Chelsea not winning the domestic title since 2016/17, before Jorginho became our player. Which is ironic because 2017/18 is when we finished 5th in the league, at that time Napoli finished with 91 points in Serie A and everyone that knows anything about this game said that they played one of the most beautiful football styles in whole Europe. Mate, this is your argument not mine, i'm simply countering it. Since he's came here our points tally for a season hasn't improved at all. We've stagnated in the league. 

Jorginho started in the second league, Serie B and helped his team to get promoted to Serie A after 11 years. In his first Serie A season Hellas Verona finished 10th and he signed for Napoli. Hellas Verona survived 1 season more in Serie A after Jorginho left for Napoli.
After his first season in Napoli, Benitez got sacked after a 5th position finish. In fact Jorginho has failed to finish below top 3 in Serie A after Sarri took over Napoli and as it stands he didn't finish below top 4 in the Premier League either. So Sarri is to thank for their wonder season? Napoli also finished 2nd the year Jorginho left. Weird, you'd think losing their only good player they'd sink into the relegation zone as you've been claiming.

And to bottle a league title you would need to be the favorite to win it, something that historically a team from south Italy hasn't really been so when Juventus managed to win 30/38 games it's actually them that at the time just continued to dominate football domestically, the fact that Napoli managed to compete with them was an achievement in itself. The title race for Napoli was lost prior to them being in any position to bottle it, more than 10 rounds prior to the league's finish which isn't bottling anything but just not having a very much perfect season like Juventus was having at the time. After all it was Koulibaly that first scored in the last minuted against Juventus, only to get a red card at the very start of the next match against Fiorentina which made Napoli lose the game so you claiming that Jorginho bottled the league title couldn't be further from the truth. What it took for Napoli to lose the league title was just a small inconsistency where they managed to lose and play a draw in 2 consecutive games twice, their record in the last 10 games is the same as Juventus. 

As soon as their form dropped by not winning in 2 games in a row they were losing the top spot, that's not bottling the league title, that's the very minimum loss of form that a team can have. And if anyone managed to bottle that season it was Koulibaly and not Jorginho. Always someone elses fault, you'd think a deity such as Jorginho would be able to step up and rally a team to not drop points to the likes of Sassuolo and Chievo. They were 1st for almost 60% of the campaign, they bottled it.

 

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He came here for the money but if he had gone to Man City it would be to prove himself?

So if we buy Rice for 100m he also would be taking the money and not going to prove himself either then. That's your bullsh*t logic there, time after time.

Got boy hood allegiances to Chelsea. Would be going back to the team he actually supports. 

Difference with Jorginho is it was public knowledge he wanted to go to City, only came to us after the clubs fell out with each other. We were second choice and he flirts with going back to Italy every year.

8 minutes ago, loz said:

I am not Jorginho's biggest fan but I don't think there is much value in basing an argument on someone being willing to pay 100m for Rice but nobody would for Jorginho. The Rice potential transfer is inflated massively due to his nationality and age.

 

We wouldn't get 100m for Kante either and he is three times the player of both of them.

true

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Got boy hood allegiances to Chelsea. Would be going back to the team he actually supports. 

Difference with Jorginho is it was public knowledge he wanted to go to City, only came to us after the clubs fell out with each other. We were second choice and he flirts with going back to Italy every year.

Bullsh*t. He chose to come here, you're just spinning things now, clearly having an agenda.