1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

FYI West Ham have the best CM in the country. 

I think it's unlikely he'd look as good for us as he does at West Ham. Moyes have built that side around Rice & Soucek in central midfield. He's a good player so he'd do well here but if you think Jorginho is a slow passer (which he simply isn't btw) then you'd be in for a surprise if we signed Rice and he was asked to step in for Jorginho.

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

I think it's unlikely he'd look as good for us as he does at West Ham. Moyes have built that side around Rice & Soucek in central midfield. He's a good player so he'd do well here but if you think Jorginho is a slow passer (which he simply isn't btw) then you'd be in for a surprise if we signed Rice and he was asked to step in for Jorginho.

Jorginho painfully slows our game down with his passing, look at when he came on against Liverpool. He came on and we got pinned back.

^ This depends totally on who we face. End to end action and Jorginho is not very useful. 

He was the biggest reason why Italy won the Euro's IMO. Big reason why we won the CL. 

In England you have these headless end to end battles where you don't rule with intelligence but with body. Jorginho doesn't have that in his locker. 

Still one of the best midfielders in Europe no doubt about it.

Sometimes when I watch Prem I feel it is all intensity and the best genes. Someone like Kyle Walker or Shaw from MU are the types I really don't like. They are fast track bullies who just go like Forrest Gump. No intelligence, no tactics just muscles and adrenaline. 

Jorginho is not the best suited in England and he still manages to be a decisive player for us. I tip my cap to him.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Jorginho painfully slows our game down with his passing, look at when he came on against Liverpool. He came on and we got pinned back.

Disagree with this - Liverpool looked like scoring with every attack before Jorgi came on. We controlled the game after Jorgi's introduction except for injury time.

8 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

So your argument was Rice is good at a mid table team like West Ham and they only beat us with flukey goals. But then you go on to praise us beating an actual mid table team like Spurs in which we relied on flukey goals just because Jorginho is playing. 

FYI West Ham have the best CM in the country. 

What else is Rice good at if not just for a mid table team? No evidence for anything else, at least Jorginho is a proven winner and a top 4 player so I don't see your argument other than you publicly announcing your love towards Rice.

I find it funny because so much talk in your circles about how Jorginho isn't able to "protect the backline" yet we spontaneously played a back 4 with Rudiger and Sarr and had Jorginho and Saul in the midfield and we won with a clean sheet, if you didn't have a 3-4 year agenda against Jorginho right now you would have been able to notice that we could have ended that match 5-1. If the only thing you got to say after us being Spurs like that is "West Ham has the best CM in the league", then you clearly lost the plot here.

 

8 hours ago, Sindre said:

I think it's unlikely he'd look as good for us as he does at West Ham. Moyes have built that side around Rice & Soucek in central midfield. He's a good player so he'd do well here but if you think Jorginho is a slow passer (which he simply isn't btw) then you'd be in for a surprise if we signed Rice and he was asked to step in for Jorginho.

Exactly.

He's perfect for an underdog set up like West Ham under Moyes but just like his manager I think he will find it a different ball game stepping up to the top level.

4 hours ago, evissy said:

 In England you have these headless end to end battles where you don't rule with intelligence but with body. Jorginho doesn't have that in his locker. 

Yep and most of those games for us happen without Jorginho on the pitch and if he's on the bench he's usually immediately brought on to calm things down.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

What else is Rice good at if not just for a mid table team? Do you really want me to list his strengths out for you? No evidence for anything else, at least Jorginho is a proven winner and a top 4 player You do realise your beloved Jorginho was neither of those things before he came to us? He became a winner at Chelsea. Imagine what could happen with a player with potential like Declan. so I don't see your argument other than you publicly announcing your love towards Rice.

I find it funny because so much talk in your circles about how Jorginho isn't able to "protect the backline" yet we spontaneously played a back 4 with Rudiger and Sarr and had Jorginho and Saul in the midfield and we won with a clean sheet, Jorginho single handedly got us a clean sheet, understood thanks if you didn't have a 3-4 year agenda against Jorginho right now you would have been able to notice that we could have ended that match 5-1. If my aunt and balls she'd be my uncle, but she doesn't, so she's not. If the only thing you got to say after us being Spurs like that is "West Ham has the best CM in the league", then you clearly lost the plot here. Did you watch the game? Tottenham are unbelievably bad. If anything, the fact we only won 2-0 is a bit embarrassing. Players need to have a look at themselves and start creating and finishing more.

 

You love stats so much: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8618/Stages/19793/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2021-2022

Rice currently the 10th highest rated player in the league this season. Jorginho is 80th in a team that is doing better. Jorginho with an 88.6% passing%, Rice with 90.3%. Weird how Rice can have a better passing percentage in a team that only counter attacks. 

https://www.whoscored.com/PlayerComparison Feel free to pick and choose whatever you want, Rice betters Jorginho at everything except for penalty scoring and Jorginho gets fouled more.

4 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yep and most of those games for us happen without Jorginho on the pitch and if he's on the bench he's usually immediately brought on to calm things down.

I'd much rather see and end to end battle rather than a slow game like Everton where we have 81% possession and draw 1-1 because there's no speed to our attack.

The Liverpool match was one of the most entertaining games i've seen until the 70th minute.

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

I'd much rather see and end to end battle rather than a slow game like Everton where we have 81% possession and draw 1-1 because there's no speed to our attack.

The Liverpool match was one of the most entertaining games i've seen until the 70th minute.

It was, but we still had to bring him on because it was only the presence of the world's best keeper that prevented us going behind again. And it's not like we've never had these games without Jorginho, we battered Real Madrid at Stamford Bridge with him in midfield to pluck one example.

And we didn't draw against Everton because of lack of speed in our attack, we drew because of a combination of poor finishing and Pickford.

Just now, Argo said:

Exactly.

He's perfect for an underdog set up like West Ham under Moyes but just like his manager I think he will find it a different ball game stepping up to the top level.

England had a similar line of thinking like West Ham in the Euro final, even after scoring an early goal it was clear that Rice had no business with controling the ball, in fact Philips looked far more capable with the ball than Rice throughout the tournament.

Now if we all can think that investing 100m for Lukaku was a strange decision surely investing another 100m for Rice should be at the very least welcomed with skepticism. Bakayoko looked like class in Monaco due to having a high average of tackles made, he came here got the ball in his feet and didn't know what to do next. Matic for example wasn't a fast player nor particularly strong, sure he had the height but most importantly he had the technique and intelligence to control the ball and to be that anchor as a classical DM. A player like that you can find for half the price of Rice.

Just now, Gol15 said:

England had a similar line of thinking like West Ham in the Euro final, even after scoring an early goal it was clear that Rice had no business with controling the ball, in fact Philips looked far more capable with the ball than Rice throughout the tournament.

Now if we all can think that investing 100m for Lukaku was a strange decision surely investing another 100m for Rice should be at the very least welcomed with skepticism. Bakayoko looked like class in Monaco due to having a high average of tackles made, he came here got the ball in his feet and didn't know what to do next. Matic for example wasn't a fast player nor particularly strong, sure he had the height but most importantly he had the technique and intelligence to control the ball and to be that anchor as a classical DM. A player like that you can find for half the price of Rice.

If we're going to be lazy and stick to just looking at this league Youri Tielmens is the midfielder we should be looking at.

The dream would be to get De Jong out of Barca but that will never happen.

9 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You love stats so much: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8618/Stages/19793/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2021-2022

Rice currently the 10th highest rated player in the league this season. Jorginho is 80th in a team that is doing better. Jorginho with an 88.6% passing%, Rice with 90.3%. Weird how Rice can have a better passing percentage in a team that only counter attacks. 

https://www.whoscored.com/PlayerComparison Feel free to pick and choose whatever you want, Rice betters Jorginho at everything except for penalty scoring and Jorginho gets fouled more.

I stopped using whoscored years ago, but if you honestly think that Rice is a better player than Jorginho, that's your problem not mine. Jorginho is a proven top player, Pep wanted him at Man City and every coach that had him loved him, including now Tuchel. But keep being in love with Rice, that's between the two of you.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

If we're going to be lazy and stick to just looking at this league Youri Tielmens is the midfielder we should be looking at.

The dream would be to get De Jong out of Barca but that will never happen.

I like Tielemans as a transfer target for us I made a thread some year ago about him and Ndidi. Tielemans is a well rounded player that can pass, press and score goals. Point is that kind of a player is much more suitable for us than Rice. I dare to say Gilmour would put Rice on the bench due to his ability while on the ball as well...

Heard it all now. Was our lack of speed in attack that meant we drew 1-1 with Everton. 

Not that Pickford played a really good game and we wasted tons of chances, as per the norm. Nope was our slow play. Which I guess if we need 12 decent chances to score a goal can make sense as we need to be faster and make 36 chances in the hope we can score 3 goals unless we get a charitable side like Spurs...who we once again only scored against because of a poor attempted clearance and a hilarious own goal.

But yes clearly Jorginhos fault cause we only had 6 clear chances in addition to half chances....lmao.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I like Tielemans as a transfer target for us I made a thread some year ago about him and Ndidi. Tielemans is a well rounded player that can pass, press and score goals. Point is that kind of a player is much more suitable for us than Rice. I dare to say Gilmour would put Rice on the bench due to his ability while on the ball as well...

Honestly don't get the desperation to bring him here. I'm genuinely curious as what people are seeing that I'm not, especially for the price it will take.

As much as I don't want Lukaku here atleast that can be somewhat reasoned with by the fact we were short on pure strikers, spending around £100m on a midfielder who's inferior to the three we have would be a diabolical waste of resources. Infact in a 343 I'd wager we already have an oven ready player for one of those positions on loan (Gallagher).

Yves Bissouma. Look back through the thread and you'll see mention of him as a cheap alternative to Rice. Looks consistent whenever I watch him and was MOTM the other week for Brighton against us. Great athlete, good touch, strong, can defend and attack etc.

When you think about it there are actually quite a lot of potential Jorginho alternatives out there.

7 hours ago, DannyVblue said:

Disagree with this - Liverpool looked like scoring with every attack before Jorgi came on. We controlled the game after Jorgi's introduction except for injury time.

And yet Danny the game before against Brighton, in which Jorginho did play, they had nearly twice as many shots as Liverpool and more possession!! Factor in that Brighton are obviously a team with less talented players than Liverpool, and it makes you ponder if Jorginho is the top class defensive cover / calming influence that some claim him to be.

59 minutes ago, just said:

And yet Danny the game before against Brighton, in which Jorginho did play, they had nearly twice as many shots as Liverpool and more possession!! Factor in that Brighton are obviously a team with less talented players than Liverpool, and it makes you ponder if Jorginho is the top class defensive cover / calming influence that some claim him to be.

On that basis why are you so desperate for a player who blows 3-0 leads against Arsenal?

Doesn't exactly scream the defensive upgrade you and others are claiming him to be and most crucially suggests he's poor under pressure.

Edited January 7, 20224 yr by Argo

44 minutes ago, just said:

And yet Danny the game before against Brighton, in which Jorginho did play, they had nearly twice as many shots as Liverpool and more possession!! Factor in that Brighton are obviously a team with less talented players than Liverpool, and it makes you ponder if Jorginho is the top class defensive cover / calming influence that some claim him to be.

Why were you so silent on the clean sheet while Jorginho was covering a young Sarr and Rudiger that isn't at his best in a back 4 formation then? Instead you chose to boost the Rice signing and even brought up false information about how he was the best player when West Ham beat us which is clearly just flat out lying. 

On 29/12/2021 at 22:18, just said:

A big budget blockbuster remake of Superman is long overdue. With Kante in the lead role wearing the red Cape and his pants over his tights, coming to the rescue of Lois Lane, played by Jorginho.

Couldn't script it. You singing about how Kante is the saviour and how he came on to save Jorginho, only to watch as we concede the goal after Kante got nutmegged.

But of course no comment about how nobody protected the backline when Liverpool scored 2 fast goals at the start of the next game? Oh right, when Jorginho doesn't play and we concede that argument doesn't exist at all, not like you're having an agenda for years, not at all.

 

I'm not having the whole "Jorginho slows us down" thing anymore, it's just not what I see on the pitch. I think it used to be a problem, especially under Sarri where he would be breaking records for 5 yard passes that didn't really go anywhere, but he's not that same player anymore. There are parts of his game that have drastically changed since Tuchel arrived, and moving the ball quicker from the start of the game is one of those changes. 

Even if you do believe he is slowing us down, where has that hurt us on the pitch? We are creating a ton of chances, we are dominating possession in 95% of the games we play, the only thing that is currently holding us back is our end product and a few sloppy defensive errors.

The game against Liverpool was bought up where Kante and Kovacic played with high intensity, but I think some are ignoring just how easy we were to play through. On another day, Liverpool put 5 past us. We may have been easy on the eye, but I didn't like how easy we were conceding chances. And before people say it's because its Liverpool, we should remember the game earlier in the season where we gave Liverpool very few chances, dominated the first half and should have been out of sight before the red card, and Jorginho started that game.

This is another plus point Jorginho has added to his game, his positioning has gone up multiple levels. He makes a lot of interceptions. In the past, I can remember him taking a ton of yellow cards because his positioning was poor or he would be too slow to react under pressure. Remember in Lampard's first season when Jorginho picked up 5 bookings in the first 11 games of the season? After his suspension, he picked up another 5 yellow cards and received another suspension. He doesn't often get himself into those predicaments anymore, and I feel that is largely because his positional play has improved and he's quicker at reacting to danger.

I feel that some are still viewing Jorginho as that same player that played under Sarri, but he's grown a lot since then. I don't blame you, I am guilty of this too. It was only a few weeks ago where I was saying that I feared old habits were creeping back into his game because of the mistakes he made against United and West Ham, but since then, he has played really well and kept our midfield together when Kante and Kovacic were out injured, he was fighting injury thoughout that period himself too. The Jorginho we have seen this season has been the best Jorginho has ever been.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm not having the whole "Jorginho slows us down" thing anymore, it's just not what I see on the pitch. I think it used to be a problem, especially under Sarri where he would be breaking records for 5 yard passes that didn't really go anywhere, but he's not that same player anymore. There are parts of his game that have drastically changed since Tuchel arrived, and moving the ball quicker from the start of the game is one of those changes. 

Even if you do believe he is slowing us down, where has that hurt us on the pitch? We are creating a ton of chances, we are dominating possession in 95% of the games we play, the only thing that is currently holding us back is our end product and a few sloppy defensive errors.

The game against Liverpool was bought up where Kante and Kovacic played with high intensity, but I think some are ignoring just how easy we were to play through. On another day, Liverpool put 5 past us. We may have been easy on the eye, but I didn't like how easy we were conceding chances. And before people say it's because its Liverpool, we should remember the game earlier in the season where we gave Liverpool very few chances, dominated the first half and should have been out of sight before the red card, and Jorginho started that game.

This is another plus point Jorginho has added to his game, his positioning has gone up multiple levels. He makes a lot of interceptions. In the past, I can remember him taking a ton of yellow cards because his positioning was poor or he would be too slow to react under pressure. Remember in Lampard's first season when Jorginho picked up 5 bookings in the first 11 games of the season? After his suspension, he picked up another 5 yellow cards and received another suspension. He doesn't often get himself into those predicaments anymore, and I feel that is largely because his positional play has improved and he's quicker at reacting to danger.

I feel that some are still viewing Jorginho as that same player that played under Sarri, but he's grown a lot since then. I don't blame you, I am guilty of this too. It was only a few weeks ago where I was saying that I feared old habits were creeping back into his game because of the mistakes he made against United and West Ham, but since then, he has played really well and kept our midfield together when Kante and Kovacic were out injured, he was fighting injury thoughout that period himself too. The Jorginho we have seen this season has been the best Jorginho has ever been.

First he was seen as the guy taking Kante away from his "best position" (I still laugh at how any one came to that conclusion but I disgress), then shortly after that Sarri's popularity plummeted which meant his did by association.

Then just as he started winning the majority round he was seen as one of the rats who turned against Lampard which clearly in some quarters hasn't been forgiven despite everything he's done since.

Those above combined with the general apathy for DLP's in English football means he hasn't got a chance sadly.

@Scott Harris @Argo Even if he does slow the play down it's not like there is always a player that is making a run but when he does make a great pass it goes unnoticed. In all fairness I think that he doesn't really use long balls as other players might do but the interesting thing is that when he does, it often results in a chance that is wasted, this season against Leicester, he sees Chilwell making a run and gives him a perfect long ball but Chilwell hits the bar, against Everton he sees James making a run and gives him a perfect through ball but James can't put it on target, there was also another game where he passed to CHO and CHO also missed a clear cut chance so there are examples from not so long ago from this season where he got robbed from getting a few assists.

Sarri was very rigid and as a team we had little crosses made that season, that was a 0 risk taking playstyle and Sarri trusted Jorginho to keep it simple and as a result Jorginho had most passes made in his first PL season. When Lampard wanted the team to play more direct suddenly Jorginho was making more long balls in his second season. However he's playing now I'm sure it has a lot to do with how Tuchel wants him to play, a lot of what we see is how the manager wants the team to be and since Jorginho arrived all managers used him as a key player part from Lampard in his own second season and that didn't end well for him.
The fact that Man City till this day doesn't have any relations with Napoli shows that Pep out of principle doesn't want to have anything to do with them after the transfer of Jorginho didn't happen. It can't be that Pep, Tuchel, Sarri and Mancini rate a player and that they are all wrong, we're talking about world class coaches.

But even if let's say some simply don't care much about the details, we all saw that while Kovacic and Kante couldn't play this season, Jorginho was absolutely vital for us during this difficult period. And that's while he was also having some issues with injuries but he kept playing and kept being reliable part from a game or two after he really was overplayed.

Let's not forget that out of all of our players, Jorginho had the least amount of break because he played all matches from the CL quarter-finals last season + started in 8/10 of the last PL games but also he started and finished in all matches in the Euro from start to finish adding that in the semi-finals and finals he played 120+ minutes as well.
So we're talking about someone that gave his all to this club, this is why he's the vice captain I believe because he has been a good servant and he's happy to spend all of his prime years here. If there ever was a 50m signing that was worth it, it's Jorginho.

 

Edited January 7, 20224 yr by Gol15

Fair assesment Scott. What is great about Jorignho is his intelligence. He always tries to improve himself and look for new ways to be better. 

Sarri for example made his career basically with Jorginho (top level). He would just say to one player to defend/control with the ball and Jorginho did as told. Key to Napoli's football and to be fair Chelsea's most of the seasons he has been with us. Frank didn't want to use him and I think he didn't know how.

He is not an optimal player for this league but we (me included) have not given him the credit he deserves.

5 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Remember in Lampard's first season when Jorginho picked up 5 bookings in the first 11 games of the season? After his suspension, he picked up another 5 yellow cards and received another suspension. He doesn't often get himself into those predicaments anymore,

Also down to Tuchel's system being a good fit for him. Lampard using Jorginho as the lone DM in his kamikaze system was stupid. Everyone could have known that was never going to work and I think a few haven't got over how poor Jorginho looked at times during Lampard because of that. But one would be wise to remember that even Kante looked very mediocre back then so it's not something that should be held over Jorginho's head.