2 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Two extremely overrated players on here. I’ve said before and I stand by it, we won’t get close to winning the league with those two as our starting midfielders. Jorgi is a sideways backwards pass merchant and Kova is a very aesthetically pleasing with the ball at his feet but has no ability to shoot or play a killer pass, neither are brilliant defensively either.

He does have the ability to play a killer pass, and has done so in many games. You’re entitled to your view but why not wait till he’s back to full fitness and then criticise, say after a good game? Easy to do it now when he’s clearly not 100%. 

2 minutes ago, Dean said:

He does have the ability to play a killer pass, and has done so in many games. You’re entitled to your view but why not wait till he’s back to full fitness and then criticise, say after a good game? Easy to do it now when he’s clearly not 100%. 

How many assists has he got over his career at Chelsea? Is this the first time he’s played for us? I’ve seen him at full fitness and 100% and it’s exactly the same, he’s good with the ball at his feet running around with it. 
3 years he’s been here, I’ve seen enough - that central midfield pairing have their cult followers but for me they’re bang average. Kovacic is a good squad player (I said it when he signed as well) but that’s it. We won’t get close to a PL title with those two in CM. 

Kovacic struggling when pressed? 

I've heard it all now. A match fit Kovacic is one of the best players in the world under pressure. Almost impossible to get the ball of him.

8 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

How many assists has he got over his career at Chelsea? Is this the first time he’s played for us? I’ve seen him at full fitness and 100% and it’s exactly the same, he’s good with the ball at his feet running around with it. 
3 years he’s been here, I’ve seen enough - that central midfield pairing have their cult followers but for me they’re bang average. Kovacic is a good squad player (I said it when he signed as well) but that’s it. We won’t get close to a PL title with those two in CM. 

His assist tally would be much better if we had forwards that could finish. Your entitled to your view but I think “bang average” is trite and borderline trolling :). His performance yesterday is not representative. Yet you are pouncing on it to vent your bias. Would be interested to hear your assessment after a good performance. That’s all 

Brilliant carrier of the ball no doubt but as others have said, he cannot shoot, score or provide a consistent killer pass from midfield.

1 hour ago, Dean said:

His assist tally would be much better if we had forwards that could finish. Your entitled to your view but I think “bang average” is trite and borderline trolling :). His performance yesterday is not representative. Yet you are pouncing on it to vent your bias. Would be interested to hear your assessment after a good performance. That’s all 

That’s a cop out you’re using. If your auntie had baws she’d be your uncle.

18/19 - P: 51 G: 0 A: 2
19/20 - P: 47 G: 2 A: 3

20/21 - P: 41 G: 0 A: 2

That’s 139 games and 2 goals and 7 assists.

For a side that wants to challenge for the title? He is bang average in terms of the squad he’s in, he’d be a world beater at West Brom but I’m speaking in relative terms. Have we even got close with either of them at the club? Granted it is not their problem alone, there have and are a number of weak areas in the team. 
My assessment would be exactly the same, his good games are ones where he beats the press with close control and dribbling but does one moment where you can say “what a pass” or “what a goal” stand out in his entire 3 years with us?

 

Like I said, good squad player but personally I can’t see us challenging for the league with him or Jorgi starting in CM.

7 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Like I said, good squad player but personally I can’t see us challenging for the league with him or Jorgi starting in CM.

Completely agree with this. More than a striker or centre back, I feel what we need this summer is a true, top quality defensive midfielder like Rice. Kante is at his best roaming the pitch with a balancing midfielder behind him - IMO neither Jorgi or Kova does this job well enough

I have always wanted Kovacic to provide in the goals column. It is pretty safe to say he won't. He is brilliant on the ball far away from opponent goal. Anything inside the box or around it Kovacic is not at home. 

In Tuchel's system Kovacic has a role but I really think we need more of him. He is able to make a brilliant pass but he does it once in 5 games. 

These two mistakes he made against Leicester and Villa were down to him and whoever passed to him (James and Jorginho). 

I don't think Kovacic is a problem to us. He doesn't prevent us from being a great side but to be fair City doesn't have a player that doesn't contribute in scoring. Even someone like Fernandinho scores and makes assists. 

28 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

That’s a cop out you’re using. If your auntie had baws she’d be your uncle.

18/19 - P: 51 G: 0 A: 2
19/20 - P: 47 G: 2 A: 3

20/21 - P: 41 G: 0 A: 2

That’s 139 games and 2 goals and 7 assists.

For a side that wants to challenge for the title? He is bang average in terms of the squad he’s in, he’d be a world beater at West Brom but I’m speaking in relative terms. Have we even got close with either of them at the club? Granted it is not their problem alone, there have and are a number of weak areas in the team. 
My assessment would be exactly the same, his good games are ones where he beats the press with close control and dribbling but does one moment where you can say “what a pass” or “what a goal” stand out in his entire 3 years with us?

 

Like I said, good squad player but personally I can’t see us challenging for the league with him or Jorgi starting in CM.

The goals/assist argument is so weak to begin with though. There are a lot of world class midfielders with similar numbers to Kovacic.

He's the link between defence and attack. Therefore he's often third or fourth last on the ball but rarely the direct assister. Doesn't mean his job is any less important then the player with the last pass.

22 minutes ago, AndyDowsleftflank said:

Completely agree with this. More than a striker or centre back, I feel what we need this summer is a true, top quality defensive midfielder like Rice. Kante is at his best roaming the pitch with a balancing midfielder behind him - IMO neither Jorgi or Kova does this job well enough

There is no way that we are in need of a central midfielder more than a world class CB and/or a goal scorer. Even Fabricio Romano when asked in a recent interview mentioned a top quality CB as the first position for Chelsea to look to sign, followed by a potential striker.

Make no mistake, without a world class CB we will never challenge Man City, look at Pep he bought Laporte and then Dias and then even Ake as a backup and without the first two his squad isn't as good, look at Liverpool without Van Dijk struggling to get in top 4 but with him they are challenging for the title.

18 minutes ago, Sindre said:

The goals/assist argument is so weak to begin with though. There are a lot of world class midfielders with similar numbers to Kovacic.

He's the link between defence and attack. Therefore he's often third or fourth last on the ball but rarely the direct assister. Doesn't mean his job is any less important then the player with the last pass.

Like who? If you start popping out the Kroos, Modric argument then I’m out, you can watch their games (particularly in their peak) and see exceptional passes they make. Not a single “wow” moment jumps in to my head when I think of Kova in 3 years.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by EdinburghBlue

32 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Like who? If you start popping out the Kroos, Modric argument then I’m out, you can watch their games (particularly in their peak) and see exceptional passes they make. Not a single “wow” moment jumps in to my head when I think of Kova in 3 years.

But few goals and assists am I right? That's the statistic you were using to beat Kovacic with.

Which I say is a silly argument as it's not Kovacic's role in our team to do that. Neither is it Modric's main role at Real Madrid to do that. Or Thiago Alcantaras role when he was outstanding for Bayern to give you a couple of examples.

Kovacic have had a lot of outstanding performances under both Lampard & Tuchel. Particularly in Lampards first season he was amazing (won POTY) and until he got injured under Tuchel he was also incredible. No wonder Tuchel have been desperate to get him back.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Sindre

2 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

That’s a cop out you’re using. If your auntie had baws she’d be your uncle.

18/19 - P: 51 G: 0 A: 2
19/20 - P: 47 G: 2 A: 3

20/21 - P: 41 G: 0 A: 2

That’s 139 games and 2 goals and 7 assists.

For a side that wants to challenge for the title? He is bang average in terms of the squad he’s in, he’d be a world beater at West Brom but I’m speaking in relative terms. Have we even got close with either of them at the club? Granted it is not their problem alone, there have and are a number of weak areas in the team. 
My assessment would be exactly the same, his good games are ones where he beats the press with close control and dribbling but does one moment where you can say “what a pass” or “what a goal” stand out in his entire 3 years with us?

 

Like I said, good squad player but personally I can’t see us challenging for the league with him or Jorgi starting in CM.

So if we DO challenge for the league with Kovacic a regular in the starting lineup, you will hold your hand up and say “I was wrong”? 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

There is no way that we are in need of a central midfielder more than a world class CB and/or a goal scorer. Even Fabricio Romano when asked in a recent interview mentioned a top quality CB as the first position for Chelsea to look to sign, followed by a potential striker.

Make no mistake, without a world class CB we will never challenge Man City, look at Pep he bought Laporte and then Dias and then even Ake as a backup and without the first two his squad isn't as good, look at Liverpool without Van Dijk struggling to get in top 4 but with him they are challenging for the title.

Yep, we absolutely do need a top central defender and a top striker. 

But in my opinion we play with the added security of a third central defender because we are too easily caught out of position in midfield - which overall means we have one less goal threat in the team. 

Kova is a good player, and I actually think we'd see the best of him if Kante was sold/injured since I think he'd do the same kind of role very well. But Kante is the best player in the team and has to play, and alongside him he lacks both the defensive and attacking output for the team to be as effective as we need to be

 

Was rushed in against Leicester because of N'Golo's injury and had his first start since his hamstring injury, but some already know that he's not good enough. Because a confirmation bias is only fun when you judge a player on about 90minutes of gametime right when he comes back from an injury to validate and repeat what you always knew.

Probably the same people that would've sold Kanté when he came back, because he wasn't a world beater in his first 3 games.

4 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Was rushed in against Leicester because of N'Golo's injury and had his first start since his hamstring injury, but some already know that he's not good enough. Because a confirmation bias is only fun when you judge a player on about 90minutes of gametime right when he comes back from an injury to validate and repeat what you always knew.

Probably the same people that would've sold Kanté when he came back, because he wasn't a world beater in his first 3 games.

Agree he cannot be judged on that game.

3 hours ago, Sindre said:

But few goals and assists am I right? That's the statistic you were using to beat Kovacic with.

Which I say is a silly argument as it's not Kovacic's role in our team to do that. Neither is it Modric's main role at Real Madrid to do that. Or Thiago Alcantaras role when he was outstanding for Bayern to give you a couple of examples.

Kovacic have had a lot of outstanding performances under both Lampard & Tuchel. Particularly in Lampards first season he was amazing (won POTY) and until he got injured under Tuchel he was also incredible. No wonder Tuchel have been desperate to get him back.

Well said, As you say their are loads of really good central midfielders who score little or get an assist. It's not Kovacic game, you can play well in a football match wihout scoring a goal or getting an assist. Kovacic has a lot of good attributes that he brings to the team.

No one would give a rats ass about Kovacic not scoring if the attacking players were scoring. Liverpool won a champions league and a premier league with a midfield three that didn't score much.

We won a league title with 3 at the back and 2 defensive types infront, no one was complaining about little goal threat from Kante or Matic because we were scoring goals, the forward players were scoring.

5 hours ago, Sindre said:

But few goals and assists am I right? That's the statistic you were using to beat Kovacic with.

Which I say is a silly argument as it's not Kovacic's role in our team to do that. Neither is it Modric's main role at Real Madrid to do that. Or Thiago Alcantaras role when he was outstanding for Bayern to give you a couple of examples.

Kovacic have had a lot of outstanding performances under both Lampard & Tuchel. Particularly in Lampards first season he was amazing (won POTY) and until he got injured under Tuchel he was also incredible. No wonder Tuchel have been desperate to get him back.

Do you ever read full threads before replying or do you just automatically jump in without reading? I said all he offers is ability to dribble, he brings very little else to the table. I used goals and assists as an example. If you can honestly look at the likes of Ballon D’or Modric and compare Kovacic to him, I dunno what to tell you. 
 

What is his role in the team? You’re a big fan of Jorginho and he’s apparently the Regista to orchestrate things, Kante does the defensive dirty work, what is Kova’s role, clearly not to create as you say. 
 

Comparing Kovacic to Modric is beyond a joke. There’s a reason Real have kept a hold of one well in to his 30’s and papped the other out on loan to us. 

4 hours ago, Dean said:

So if we DO challenge for the league with Kovacic a regular in the starting lineup, you will hold your hand up and say “I was wrong”? 

100%, I just don’t see it happening.

2 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Well said, As you say their are loads of really good central midfielders who score little or get an assist. It's not Kovacic game, you can play well in a football match wihout scoring a goal or getting an assist. Kovacic has a lot of good attributes that he brings to the team.

No one would give a rats ass about Kovacic not scoring if the attacking players were scoring. Liverpool won a champions league and a premier league with a midfield three that didn't score much.

We won a league title with 3 at the back and 2 defensive types infront, no one was complaining about little goal threat from Kante or Matic because we were scoring goals, the forward players were scoring.

What are they? Close control in tight areas and great ball control no doubt about it but what else?

 

For defensive players, Matic got 10 G+A’s that season & Kante got 3 G+A’s - Matic provided more goal threat than Kova’s three seasons combined and Kante provided more goal threat that season than Kova has in 2 of his 3 and as you rightfully say - defensive types which Kova isn’t, so how is it unreasonable to expect better from him?

11 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

What are they? Close control in tight areas and great ball control no doubt about it but what else?

 

For defensive players, Matic got 10 G+A’s that season & Kante got 3 G+A’s - Matic provided more goal threat than Kova’s three seasons combined and Kante provided more goal threat that season than Kova has in 2 of his 3 and as you rightfully say - defensive types which Kova isn’t, so how is it unreasonable to expect better from him?

I'll answer in the words of Tuchel (also answer to the post you quoted me in)

"It's huge because Mateo has everything we need in midfield: experience, power, acceleration, deceleration, can beat players, has the physical ability and has played big games"

I'll also add some words from Lampard after Bayern in the CL last season.

"Kovacic played with a personality and quality that makes you go "he could play for any team in the world at his level".

And some additional words from Lampard after another performance highlighting what he brings to the team.

"Playing on and off the ball brilliantly, speed, driving through midfield, diciplined when we turned the ball over, tracking people back, his performance was huge"

 

 

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Sindre

58 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Do you ever read full threads before replying or do you just automatically jump in without reading? I said all he offers is ability to dribble, he brings very little else to the table. I used goals and assists as an example. If you can honestly look at the likes of Ballon D’or Modric and compare Kovacic to him, I dunno what to tell you. 
 

What is his role in the team? You’re a big fan of Jorginho and he’s apparently the Regista to orchestrate things, Kante does the defensive dirty work, what is Kova’s role, clearly not to create as you say. 
 

Comparing Kovacic to Modric is beyond a joke. There’s a reason Real have kept a hold of one well in to his 30’s and papped the other out on loan to us. 

100%, I just don’t see it happening.

It was Kovas choice to leave Madrid in search of more game time (or rather because he was dissapointed not to get any minutes in the CL finals). And it's Reals club policy to allow ANY player to leave that doesn't want to be there... see Ronaldo or Bale as well. The misconception that Madrid wanted to get rid of him is simply false. Lopetegui came in and wanted to build the squad around Isco and other spanish player, so Kova deduced he would get even less gametime and asked the club to go out on a loan and very obviously didnt want to go back afterwards.

Now don't get me wrong, ballon d'or Modric was the first player to get the price after a decade of Messi and Ronaldo and I wouldn't compare Kova to him. But if you don't see anything other in him than a ball carrier I honestly don't even want to discuss the player with you in terms of football.

23 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

What are they? Close control in tight areas and great ball control no doubt about it but what else?

 

For defensive players, Matic got 10 G+A’s that season & Kante got 3 G+A’s - Matic provided more goal threat than Kova’s three seasons combined and Kante provided more goal threat that season than Kova has in 2 of his 3 and as you rightfully say - defensive types which Kova isn’t, so how is it unreasonable to expect better from him?

Tackling, work rate, dribbling, helps us beat the press with his ability on the ball facing his own goal, balance on the ball, strong.

My point still stands though, we won the league with 3 at the back and 2 defensive types infront of them, now and again Fabregas came in. No one was complaining about goals that season because our attackers were scoring. I didn't see anyone moaning about Kante and Matic that season. If our attackers were scoring this season you wouldn't be moaning about Kovacic.

2 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Tackling, work rate, dribbling, helps us beat the press with his ability on the ball facing his own goal, balance on the ball, strong.

My point still stands though, we won the league with 3 at the back and 2 defensive types infront of them, now and again Fabregas came in. No one was complaining about goals that season because our attackers were scoring. I didn't see anyone moaning about Kante and Matic that season. If our attackers were scoring this season you wouldn't be moaning about Kovacic.

Work rate, balance & strength? So some of the basics you would expect any player at this level to have. “Helps us to beat the press with his ability on the ball facing his own goal”... so you agree with what I said then? The only thing of substance you’ve added on what I said is tackling. 

10 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

It was Kovas choice to leave Madrid in search of more game time (or rather because he was dissapointed not to get any minutes in the CL finals). And it's Reals club policy to allow ANY player to leave that doesn't want to be there... see Ronaldo or Bale as well. The misconception that Madrid wanted to get rid of him is simply false. Lopetegui came in and wanted to build the squad around Isco and other spanish player, so Kova deduced he would get even less gametime and asked the club to go out on a loan and very obviously didnt want to go back afterwards.

Now don't get me wrong, ballon d'or Modric was the first player to get the price after a decade of Messi and Ronaldo and I wouldn't compare Kova to him. But if you don't see anything other in him than a ball carrier I honestly don't even want to discuss the player with you in terms of football.

Why did he choose to leave? Because he wasn’t getting a game ahead of the players in front of him as you’ve even corroborated. It’s not the same as Hazards decision to leave chelsea. He left because of a lack of game time which is pretty much same as what I said, Madrid were more than happy to let him go.

 

Don’t discuss it then? You replied to me...

1 minute ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Work rate, balance & strength? So some of the basics you would expect any player at this level to have. “Helps us to beat the press with his ability on the ball facing his own goal”... so you agree with what I said then? The only thing of substance you’ve added on what I said is tackling. 

Some of them basics sure, but he is still really good at them. Kante is world class but he only does the basics too. Not many central midfielders have Kova dribbling ability mixed in with good tacking and his energy. He can beat a player with ease and break the lines and he gives it to the attacking players to do their jobs. Il say it again, If Pulisic, Mount, Werner etc all had 15-20 goals this season you wouldn't be moaning about Kovacic.