26 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I'll answer in the words of Tuchel (also answer to the post you quoted me in)

"It's huge because Mateo has everything we need in midfield: experience, power, acceleration, deceleration, can beat players, has the physical ability and has played big games"

I'll also add some words from Lampard after Bayern in the CL last season.

"Kovacic played with a personality and quality that makes you go "he could play for any team in the world at his level".

And some additional words from Lampard after another performance highlighting what he brings to the team.

"Playing on and off the ball brilliantly, speed, driving through midfield, diciplined when we turned the ball over, tracking people back, his performance was huge"

 

 

We been close to challenging for the title in any of those seasons? Which is what I originally said? You’re an expert at skirting over the original point. So you’re agreeing that you were comparing Kova to the likes of Modric and Kroos in their prime? Says it all really.

I haven’t said he’s a sh*te player, but for a team that wants to challenge for the title he is average and a squad player at best IMO.

2 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Why did he choose to leave? Because he wasn’t getting a game ahead of the players in front of him as you’ve even corroborated. It’s not the same as Hazards decision to leave chelsea. He left because of a lack of game time which is pretty much same as what I said, Madrid were more than happy to let him go.

This is stupid. A young player choosing to leave because he's disappointed with the time he got in finals doesn't mean a club is "more than happy to let him go". Don't act like it's the same thing. When Zidane came back he even mentioned how Kovacic would be a boost before a clasico because he was the perfect player to mark Messi. Now I know that a player that's just a ball carrier is probably also good enough to mark Lionel Messi in your world, but that's on you.

I replied to you to set the record straight regarding his Madrid exit. A falsehood doesn't become the truth just because you repeat it over and over.

1 hour ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Do you ever read full threads before replying or do you just automatically jump in without reading? I said all he offers is ability to dribble, he brings very little else to the table. I used goals and assists as an example. If you can honestly look at the likes of Ballon D’or Modric and compare Kovacic to him, I dunno what to tell you. 
 

What is his role in the team? You’re a big fan of Jorginho and he’s apparently the Regista to orchestrate things, Kante does the defensive dirty work, what is Kova’s role, clearly not to create as you say. 
 

Comparing Kovacic to Modric is beyond a joke. There’s a reason Real have kept a hold of one well in to his 30’s and papped the other out on loan to us. 

100%, I just don’t see it happening.

Ok will be interesting to see. My view is that a proper striker plus the improvement I expect from the likes of Havertz, Werner, James, Mount... should be enough for us to be challenging as soon as next season. Kova by implication would be playing regularly in such a set up. I’m open to setting some parameters for a sportsman’s bet on this if you are...

 

1 minute ago, Vagabond said:

This is stupid. A young player choosing to leave because he's disappointed with the time he got in finals doesn't mean a club is "more than happy to let him go". Don't act like it's the same thing. When Zidane came back he even mentioned how Kovacic would be a boost before a clasico because he was the perfect player to mark Messi. Now I know that a player that's just a ball carrier is probably also good enough to mark Lionel Messi in your world, but that's on you.

I replied to you to set the record straight regarding his Madrid exit. A falsehood doesn't become the truth just because you repeat it over and over.

Of course they were more than happy to let him go otherwise they wouldn’t have. It’s that simple. If Real really wanted to keep him he would have got much more game time and been involved in those games. He was also left out of the semi & final of the WC by Croatia as well.
 

If you think we can compete for title with him as the starting CM great we’ll see - the last three years tell me that we won’t. I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if we do but I can’t see it.

10 minutes ago, Dean said:

Ok will be interesting to see. My view is that a proper striker plus the improvement I expect from the likes of Havertz, Werner, James, Mount... should be enough for us to be challenging as soon as next season. Kova by implication would be playing regularly in such a set up. I’m open to setting some parameters for a sportsman’s bet on this if you are...

 

I hope you’re right, I just can’t see it myself! 
 

Sure mate, what you thinking? Donation to the forum?

20 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

We been close to challenging for the title in any of those seasons? Which is what I originally said? You’re an expert at skirting over the original point. So you’re agreeing that you were comparing Kova to the likes of Modric and Kroos in their prime? Says it all really.

I haven’t said he’s a sh*te player, but for a team that wants to challenge for the title he is average and a squad player at best IMO.

No, but clearly Lampard thought we could have if everyone was at Kovacic's level.

And when he was fit for Tuchel we were keeping up with City in terms of racking up the points. So that should perhaps be an indication? And Tuchel have been absolute desperate to get him back fit which should also highlight his importance to a team that's currently in a CL final. So clearly he can be a key part of a team that compete for the biggest titles in club football afterall.

And you also asked what qualities he brings to the table and I answered with the words of men who know a lot more about football than you and me. It's fine if you want to claim he can only dribble but clearly a lot of competent people disagree with you.

 

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Sindre

Just now, Sindre said:

No, but clearly Lampard thought we could have if everyone was at Kovacic's level.

And when he was fit for Tuchel we were keeping up with City in terms of racking up the points. So that should perhaps be an indication? And Tuchel have been absolute desperate to get him back fit which should also highlight his importance to a team that's currently in a CL final. So clearly he can be a key part of a team that compete for the biggest titles in club football afterall.

 

 

If, if, if, if, if... IF pigs had wings they would fly. Like I said, we’ll see - I’ll happily admit that I was wrong if we win the league next season with Kova being exceptional. I’ll just be amazed by it - based on the factual last three years not any hypothetical “ifs”.

When you think back to the quality we have had in the midfield over the seasons and the goals and assists that have come from those players. Lamps, Joey Cole, Ballack, Essien, Fabregas - even Ramires and Oscar, neither of who I rated that highly. It's no wonder we have such a dismal record of troubling the keeper. No prolific striker and zero threat from the midfield.

 

6 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Of course they were more than happy to let him go otherwise they wouldn’t have. It’s that simple. If Real really wanted to keep him he would have got much more game time and been involved in those games. He was also left out of the semi & final of the WC by Croatia as well.
 

If you think we can compete for title with him as the starting CM great we’ll see - the last three years tell me that we won’t. I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if we do but I can’t see it.

It's Real Madrid policy to let ANY player leave that wants to go. If you aren't happy after a season for whatever reason and hand in a request they let you go. Wether they were more than happy to let him go or what they would've, could've, should've done is pure speculation that doesn't become the truth because you repeat it. They even let Ronaldo go, I doubt they were more than happy with that either. With Bale I'd agree with you though.

Mate, please get your facts straight or stop it. He was left out of semi & final by Croatia because of a shoulder injury he picked up.

3 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

If, if, if, if, if... IF pigs had wings they would fly. Like I said, we’ll see - I’ll happily admit that I was wrong if we win the league next season with Kova being exceptional. I’ll just be amazed by it - based on the factual last three years not any hypothetical “ifs”.

Alright that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I think Kovacic is an exceptional player and more than good enough. And while he struggled in his first year he's on the whole been very, very good for the other two.

 

22 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

It's Real Madrid policy to let ANY player leave that wants to go. If you aren't happy after a season for whatever reason and hand in a request they let you go. Wether they were more than happy to let him go or what they would've, could've, should've done is pure speculation that doesn't become the truth because you repeat it. They even let Ronaldo go, I doubt they were more than happy with that either. With Bale I'd agree with you though.

Mate, please get your facts straight or stop it. He was left out of semi & final by Croatia because of a shoulder injury he picked up.

Ronaldo, of course they did because of what he’d done for the club. It’s not comparable. What it’s more in line with is Regulion who they inserted a buyback for, so clear had more confidence in him developing than Kova.
 

The facts are, he was fit enough for the bench in both games, he had started one game in the tournament up to and including the R16 where he picked up the shoulder knock. IIRC correctly, it was the third group game he started when Croatia had already qualified from the group.

31 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

If, if, if, if, if... IF pigs had wings they would fly. Like I said, we’ll see - I’ll happily admit that I was wrong if we win the league next season with Kova being exceptional. I’ll just be amazed by it - based on the factual last three years not any hypothetical “ifs”.

I said it when Kovacic first arrived that IMO the reason why he could never make it in Real Madrid is because he lacks a specialty - he's not good enough to be an AM that would provide some end product, he doesn't have enough pace to be a winger and he isn't good enough defensively to be a regular DM with 2 players in front of him.

But he does know how to play, he has been one of the best ball carriers in the league, if not the very best progressive ball carrier if I remember the stats. He's clearly a good technical player but for the modern game he just lacks that little bit of an extra punch, I thought that under Lampard he could develop into a player that could pose a long range threat but that didn't happen. Still what he's good at he's really one of the best at it and it's no coincidence that Lampard relied on him and Jorginho last season to control the midfield and to keep possession.

Based on the previous 3 seasons I can't expect him to suddenly explode next season and I think that it's interesting that we didn't suffer much at all while he was absent because of his injury, that's despite the fact that he was our POTY last season but the main reason for that is Kante and Kante shouldn't play every game next season either, a healthy rotation is needed.

It's worth to note that Kovacic has been better and better every year since he came and he has just entered his prime years (27-29) so once he fully gets back into shape we can expect him to be a very hard working player with the ball for us and every squad needs that, for example Mount has been our engine last season without the ball with his press but Kovacic was the engine when we had the ball which is crucial.

57 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Ronaldo, of course they did because of what he’d done for the club. It’s not comparable. What it’s more in line with is Regulion who they inserted a buyback for, so clear had more confidence in him developing than Kova.
 

The facts are, he was fit enough for the bench in both games, he had started one game in the tournament up to and including the R16 where he picked up the shoulder knock. IIRC correctly, it was the third group game he started when Croatia had already qualified from the group.

Since there are rumours of Hazard wanting to come back. When they let him go, would you say they were happy about that too?

*edit* Their coach said that they put him on the bench because there was no other iirc, but that he wasn't matchfit. He picked up the injury in the quarterfinals against Russia.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by Vagabond

Lot of action in this thread today. Hopefully Kova can match it was an all action, man of the match display on Saturday. 

32 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Since there are rumours of Hazard wanting to come back. When they let him go, would you say they were happy about that too?

*edit* Their coach said that they put him on the bench because there was no other iirc, but that he wasn't matchfit. He picked up the injury in the quarterfinals against Russia.

Given the money that was on offer and what Hazard had done for us? Absolutely, they were happy to let him go in that deal - quite rightly too, even if it hasn’t turned out great for him in the end. 
 

it was the R16 against Denmark, I just checked.

4 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Given the money that was on offer and what Hazard had done for us? Absolutely, they were happy to let him go in that deal - quite rightly too, even if it hasn’t turned out great for him in the end. 
 

it was the R16 against Denmark, I just checked.

To be fair, that Croatia midfield was pretty hard to get into, whether he was injured or not. Modric and Rakitic (in his prime) were shoo-ins for Kovacic’s most suited role, and then Brozovic and Perisic were no slouches. 

2 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I hope you’re right, I just can’t see it myself! 
 

Sure mate, what you thinking? Donation to the forum?

Hasn’t thought of that but sure. So -  I make a donation to the forum if, say, we don’t finish top 2 or top 3 (but within 10 pts of first place - tbd) with Kova playing at least 50% games/minutes? You make a donation in most other scenarios? Unforeseen events such as long term injury or sale would void it I guess. Is that what you mean? Feel free to tweak the parameters as you see fit and then maybe we can agree and track it. Might be fun. 

19 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Given the money that was on offer and what Hazard had done for us? Absolutely, they were happy to let him go in that deal - quite rightly too, even if it hasn’t turned out great for him in the end. 
 

it was the R16 against Denmark, I just checked.

You misunderstood me I think. I asked whether you believe Madrid would be "more than happy" to let Eden come back to us simply because it's their policy and they will do it if he hands in a request.

I just checked and you're right, Kova picked up the injury in the game against Denmark already and had to play with a bad shoulder against Russia again (was the only Croat that missed a pen in the shootout). Afterwards he was on the bench, but apparently not fit enough to get any game time. But I'm positive that I watched an interview with their coach that said he wasn't 100%, seems I can't find it anymore though.

........ anyway. I'm just praying the centre of our midfield is a "Jorginho free Zone" and that Kante and Kova are both fit and ready to start the CL final together on Saturday. 

25 minutes ago, just said:

........ anyway. I'm just praying the centre of our midfield is a "Jorginho free Zone" and that Kante and Kova are both fit and ready to start the CL final together on Saturday. 

You're just spoiling for a fight now just 😄

On 24/05/2021 at 21:59, Dean said:

Hasn’t thought of that but sure. So -  I make a donation to the forum if, say, we don’t finish top 2 or top 3 (but within 10 pts of first place - tbd) with Kova playing at least 50% games/minutes? You make a donation in most other scenarios? Unforeseen events such as long term injury or sale would void it I guess. Is that what you mean? Feel free to tweak the parameters as you see fit and then maybe we can agree and track it. Might be fun. 

Sorry mate, tend to take the summer off the forum and missed this amongst all the CL stuff.

How about 8 points? Means it’s within 3 results which I’d argue is relatively close. 
 

If we’re talking being an important player in a title challenging team, I’d say 70% of minutes across the league season? 50% I’d expect of a squad player which I have no doubt he’s more than capable of.

I expect Kova plays tennis like this, loads of small, near the body stuff with zero worthwhile ending

 

I like Kova but would agree he doesn't score the goals to make him a truly great midfielder.  He's not De Bruyne. But I'll bet he's a regular player/starter for Tuchel this season and I don't think he's the reason why we didn't win the league. Having 2 of  him, jorginho and kante on the field meant that we dominated or controlled possession in that part of the park in just about every game once Tuchel arrived and got things organised.

Thought he played pretty well in the Euros in an ageing toothless croatian team. I play quite a bit of tennis not quite sure what DKW is getting at. Small quick steps are really bloody hard at my age that's for sure.

5 hours ago, Boyne said:

Wonder how he feels about Djokovic being one of the best ever considering the rivalry that the two countries have...