On 12/11/2022 at 21:10, Sconnie Blue said:

Not good for a club looking to retain the ball. 
 

He is the shining example why Declan Rice will fail here. 

Why? They're nothing alike. 

4 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Why? They're nothing alike. 

They both thrive in a system that don't look to retain the ball. 

For all of Jorginho's faults, his ability to control the game is one of the very reasons we won the Champions League. To expect Declan Rice to come in and provided us this same level of retention against the best midfielders in the world, is irrational. 

Point being, we shouldn't be spending 80-100m in the slim chance Declan Rice can develop this part of his game when those funds could actually be used for a sure thing instead. Isn't that why we brought in all these 'data people'? 

14 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

They both thrive in a system that don't look to retain the ball. 

For all of Jorginho's faults, his ability to control the game is one of the very reasons we won the Champions League. To expect Declan Rice to come in and provided us this same level of retention against the best midfielders in the world, is irrational. 

Point being, we shouldn't be spending 80-100m in the slim chance Declan Rice can develop this part of his game when those funds could actually be used for a sure thing instead. Isn't that why we brought in all these 'data people'? 

So have you seen Rice play in a system like ours to know for certain he will fail?

14 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

They both thrive in a system that don't look to retain the ball. 

For all of Jorginho's faults, his ability to control the game is one of the very reasons we won the Champions League. To expect Declan Rice to come in and provided us this same level of retention against the best midfielders in the world, is irrational. 

Point being, we shouldn't be spending 80-100m in the slim chance Declan Rice can develop this part of his game when those funds could actually be used for a sure thing instead. Isn't that why we brought in all these 'data people'? 

Our main issue is getting the ball up the pitch quickly. I agree Jorginho is good at keeping the ball but slows us down far too much. We have next to no creativity in the team so slowing the game down is counter productive to our game. Once again I'm by no means saying lets spend £100m on Rice but there's absolutely no evidence to show he would fail here and most big clubs wanting him would suggest otherwise. 

13 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Our main issue is getting the ball up the pitch quickly. I agree Jorginho is good at keeping the ball but slows us down far too much. We have next to no creativity in the team so slowing the game down is counter productive to our game. Once again I'm by no means saying lets spend £100m on Rice but there's absolutely no evidence to show he would fail here and most big clubs wanting him would suggest otherwise. 

There is no evidence that Jorginho has failed here yet you keep that agenda alive...

Rice already lost half of the matches he played this season, so much for protecting the backline, he’s useless.

12 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

There is no evidence that Jorginho has failed here yet you keep that agenda alive...

Rice already lost half of the matches he played this season, so much for protecting the backline, he’s useless.

Reply number 6 today, i'm starting to feel bad living in your head rent free like this.

The evidence of failure is the lack of title challenges. Oh yeah, West Ham have actually conceded the same amount of goals as us this season. So if Rice is useless at protecting a back line, you're admitting J5 is too. When you consider how our defenders are much better than West Ham's too, so would have prevented a lot more goals, an argument is there to actually say Rice is better than Jorginho at protecting a back line... Wonder what stats you'll pull out the bag to try and worm your way out of that hole you've dug for yourself. 

Have a good day buddy. 

4 hours ago, dkw said:

So have you seen Rice play in a system like ours to know for certain he will fail?

I don't know for certain if he will fail or succeed here. That alone shouldn't warrant us paying approximately 100m in the chance he can be a success. 

I think its also damning that when ever Southgate tries to play a more progressive set up with England, they are over run in midfield and in the transition when Rice is the holding midfielder. He then quickly reverts to a back 5 because of it. 

4 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Our main issue is getting the ball up the pitch quickly. I agree Jorginho is good at keeping the ball but slows us down far too much. We have next to no creativity in the team so slowing the game down is counter productive to our game. Once again I'm by no means saying lets spend £100m on Rice but there's absolutely no evidence to show he would fail here and most big clubs wanting him would suggest otherwise. 

There is some evidence. 

For one, Chelsea retain the ball on average 62% per match. West Ham 48% per match. Jorginho and Kovacic play more forward passes than Declan Rice per 90 and make far more passes than Declan Rice per 90. West Ham don't look to dominate 2/3 of the possession like Chelsea do because they don't have the midfielders capable of doing so. 

The only other club allegedly interested was United, and that has died down once ten Hag was appointed. There's also a reason why Liverpool want Bellingham and not Rice. 

5 hours ago, dkw said:

So have you seen Rice play in a system like ours to know for certain he will fail?

On that same basis how are you and others so sure he will succeed in this system to the point you'd be comfortable breaking our transfer record for him?

31 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

There is some evidence. 

For one, Chelsea retain the ball on average 62% per match. West Ham 48% per match. Jorginho and Kovacic play more forward passes than Declan Rice per 90 and make far more passes than Declan Rice per 90. West Ham don't look to dominate 2/3 of the possession like Chelsea do because they don't have the midfielders capable of doing so. 

The only other club allegedly interested was United, and that has died down once ten Hag was appointed. There's also a reason why Liverpool want Bellingham and not Rice. 

https://one-versus-one.com/en/compare-players/Jorginho-Frello-Filho-vs-Declan-Rice#:~:text=Frello Filho Jorginho has a pass completion rate of 33,for passes into the box.

More passes, better completion rate, fast build up etc. 

Bellingham and Rice aren't comparable, hence why they play together for England. Bellingham would be coming in for Hendo/Keita/Ox. They already have Fabinho for the 'Rice'role'. Utd signed Casemiro so obviously don't need Rice. City have Rodri. We're the only team without a proper DM.

Just now, Argo said:

On that same basis how are you and others so sure he will succeed in this system to the point you'd be comfortable breaking our transfer record for him?

Its not currently working so may as well try something different.

I'd do it just so Lukaku isn't our record signing anymore. 

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

https://one-versus-one.com/en/compare-players/Jorginho-Frello-Filho-vs-Declan-Rice#:~:text=Frello Filho Jorginho has a pass completion rate of 33,for passes into the box.

More passes, better completion rate, fast build up etc. 

Bellingham and Rice aren't comparable, hence why they play together for England. Bellingham would be coming in for Hendo/Keita/Ox. They already have Fabinho for the 'Rice'role'. Utd signed Casemiro so obviously don't need Rice. City have Rodri. We're the only team without a proper DM.

According to Liverpool fans Fabinho has declined to the point he's barely PL level.

Just now, Argo said:

According to Liverpool fans Fabinho has declined to the point he's barely PL level.

He has this season tbf. They still need more urgent reinforcements for the Keita/Ox/Hendo role, hence their pursuit of Bellingham. They've needed new legs there now for about 2 years.

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Its not currently working so may as well try something different.

I'd do it just so Lukaku isn't our record signing anymore. 

By all means, but signing someone who's so far shown no inclination that he will thrive in such a system will show we haven't learned a thing from the Lukaku disaster.

I mean even if we really insisted to sticking to HG players (which there is absolutely no need to do with the players we have coming through) Phillips was a much less riskier option.

4 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Reply number 6 today, i'm starting to feel bad living in your head rent free like this.

The evidence of failure is the lack of title challenges. Oh yeah, West Ham have actually conceded the same amount of goals as us this season. So if Rice is useless at protecting a back line, you're admitting J5 is too. When you consider how our defenders are much better than West Ham's too, so would have prevented a lot more goals, an argument is there to actually say Rice is better than Jorginho at protecting a back line... Wonder what stats you'll pull out the bag to try and worm your way out of that hole you've dug for yourself. 

Have a good day buddy. 

Hahahaha you lost the plot, Sarri came and from day 1 said that the whole point is to reduce the difference between us and Man City, meaning prior to Jorginho we were so far behind that nobody at the club even expected us to challenge for the league title and that view really didn’t change once the transfer ban hit us and Lampard took over.

Without Jorginho we don’t finish top 4 under Sarri and under Lampard either so you can only spend more time trying to cope with that reality, must be hard for you since apparently you’re some founder of RLC fan club so since there is absolutely nothing positive going on with him might as well deflect and put all blame on Jorginho... Tough.

Jorginho finished 3rd in his first PL season, while having a young Kepa on goal and D.Luiz as defenders, keep coping it’s been 4-5 years already lmao

31 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

https://one-versus-one.com/en/compare-players/Jorginho-Frello-Filho-vs-Declan-Rice#:~:text=Frello Filho Jorginho has a pass completion rate of 33,for passes into the box.

More passes, better completion rate, fast build up etc. 

Bellingham and Rice aren't comparable, hence why they play together for England. Bellingham would be coming in for Hendo/Keita/Ox. They already have Fabinho for the 'Rice'role'. Utd signed Casemiro so obviously don't need Rice. City have Rodri. We're the only team without a proper DM.

If we want to compare players we need something more granular, such as a full season's worth of data. 

For one, Rice does not complete more passes than Jorginho per 90 nor does he attempt more passes than Jorginho per 90. Rice narrowly edges Jorginho in pass accuracy (which is a given considering he makes less passes per 90), but the thing you bang on about Rice in progressive passes or passes in the opposition half, Jorginho has better metrics as well. And of course Rice will have more passes in the opposition box considering he plays as a box to box midfielder for West Ham. 

All of this is moot when you consider Chelsea has 2/3 of the ball per match whereas West Ham average less than 50%. 

 

Bellingham and Rice are both box to box midfielders. Klopp isn't daft enough to sign Rice to play him as a sole DM. 

49 minutes ago, Argo said:

On that same basis how are you and others so sure he will succeed in this system to the point you'd be comfortable breaking our transfer record for him?

So we have to be 100% sure for a transfer to go ahead? So no more transfers then right. And I dont think I can ever remember saying I was certain it would work perfectly.

Edited November 16, 20223 yr by dkw

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Hahahaha you lost the plot, Sarri came and from day 1 said that the whole point is to reduce the difference between us and Man City, meaning prior to Jorginho we were so far behind that nobody at the club even expected us to challenge for the league title and that view really didn’t change once the transfer ban hit us and Lampard took over.

Without Jorginho we don’t finish top 4 under Sarri and under Lampard either so you can only spend more time trying to cope with that reality, must be hard for you since apparently you’re some founder of RLC fan club so since there is absolutely nothing positive going on with him might as well deflect and put all blame on Jorginho... Tough.

Jorginho finished 3rd in his first PL season, while having a young Kepa on goal and D.Luiz as defenders, keep coping it’s been 4-5 years already lmao

Gol, Gol, Gol, my sweet dear boy.

Please don't shift the goal posts here and go off on one of your wild tirades with irrelevant opinions. Please simply reply to my previous message. 

I'll post it again for you: West Ham have actually conceded the same amount of goals as us this season. So if Rice is useless at protecting a back line, you're admitting J5 is too. When you consider how our defenders are much better than West Ham's too, so would have prevented a lot more goals, an argument is there to actually say Rice is better than Jorginho at protecting a back line... 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I don't know for certain if he will fail or succeed here. That alone shouldn't warrant us paying approximately 100m in the chance he can be a success. 

I think its also damning that when ever Southgate tries to play a more progressive set up with England, they are over run in midfield and in the transition when Rice is the holding midfielder. He then quickly reverts to a back 5 because of it. 

There is some evidence. 

For one, Chelsea retain the ball on average 62% per match. West Ham 48% per match. Jorginho and Kovacic play more forward passes than Declan Rice per 90 and make far more passes than Declan Rice per 90. West Ham don't look to dominate 2/3 of the possession like Chelsea do because they don't have the midfielders capable of doing so. 

The only other club allegedly interested was United, and that has died down once ten Hag was appointed. There's also a reason why Liverpool want Bellingham and not Rice. 

So why write this then - "He is the shining example why Declan Rice will fail here. "

Thats seems pretty certain to me.

Just now, dkw said:

So we have to be 100% sure for a transfer to go ahead? So no more transfers then right.

Or we could actually buy a DM that passes both the eye test and has the metrics to play in a progressive set up. 

Just now, dkw said:

So why write this then - "He is the shining example why Declan Rice will fail here. "

Thats seems pretty certain to me.

When comparing Gallagher's impact and how Tuchel thought he could do Kante's role. 

6 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

If we want to compare players we need something more granular, such as a full season's worth of data. 

For one, Rice does not complete more passes than Jorginho per 90 nor does he attempt more passes than Jorginho per 90. Rice narrowly edges Jorginho in pass accuracy (which is a given considering he makes less passes per 90), but the thing you bang on about Rice in progressive passes or passes in the opposition half, Jorginho has better metrics as well. And of course Rice will have more passes in the opposition box considering he plays as a box to box midfielder for West Ham. 

All of this is moot when you consider Chelsea has 2/3 of the ball per match whereas West Ham average less than 50%. 

 

Bellingham and Rice are both box to box midfielders. Klopp isn't daft enough to sign Rice to play him as a sole DM. 

stats from this season don't suit so go back to last season, got it 👍

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

So we have to be 100% sure for a transfer to go ahead? So no more transfers then right. And I dont think I can ever remember saying I was certain it would work perfectly.

For a transfer record you have to be as close to sure as it's possible to be.

I'd probably have to go as far back as prime Busquets for a player in that area I'd be comfortable with us making such a commitment on.

10 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

stats from this season don't suit so go back to last season, got it 👍

Stats from last season with more granularity don't suit so revert to only 4 months worth of stats from this season 🤷‍♂️

I think we can and should do better than Jorginho, but I am pretty certain Declan Rice isn't the answer. 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Hahahaha you lost the plot, Sarri came and from day 1 said that the whole point is to reduce the difference between us and Man City, meaning prior to Jorginho we were so far behind that nobody at the club even expected us to challenge for the league title and that view really didn’t change once the transfer ban hit us and Lampard took over.

Without Jorginho we don’t finish top 4 under Sarri and under Lampard either so you can only spend more time trying to cope with that reality, must be hard for you since apparently you’re some founder of RLC fan club so since there is absolutely nothing positive going on with him might as well deflect and put all blame on Jorginho... Tough.

Jorginho finished 3rd in his first PL season, while having a young Kepa on goal and D.Luiz as defenders, keep coping it’s been 4-5 years already lmao

Oh and just to add, West Ham conceded more goals this season while basmatiRice was playing in comparison to us while Jorginho was playing, so even that little bit of comparison is a flat out lie. RIP no arguments at all.

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Oh and just to add, West Ham conceded more goals this season while basmatiRice was playing in comparison to us while Jorginho was playing, so even that little bit of comparison is a flat out lie. RIP no arguments at all.

I think Jorginho has been incredibly underrated by a lot of fans over the past few years, but at this point in time Declan Rice would be a pretty big upgrade on him.