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Reserves tonight a defensive observation / Zonal Marking Thread


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Corner for Fulham in first half, after quite a few that were causing havoc, sounds a bit familiar eh ?

Nobody on posts, GOAL 0-1.

Second half - succession of corners , man on each post.

TWO instances we cleared off the line, stopping certain goals.

How many points in the first team would we have if say Ashley Cole (a serial goaline stopper in his Arsenal days} and Bosingwa (no real need for width when clearing danger) on the posts at set pieces ?

As for the football, on par with Sunday, 45 mins for Mancienne and Di Santo and a dodgy penalty chipped in with flashy confidence by Stoch to level matters.

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The fact that Mancienne and Di Santo only got 45 minutes suggests they will, at least, be in the 16 on Wednesday. Mancienne I expect will be on the bench but I have a sneaky feeling Di Santo might start.

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If Stoch scored, I wouldnt mind seeing him have a few minutes too. I was very impressed with his pace in his first run out. But hopefully its as Loz says and the other two get real minutes this time.

Maybe the fact that such an elemental mistake was fixed by the reserves might show the first team how its done.

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Defenders on posts, if we don't play with that now I will officially give up all faith in this current team ;)

It's because Scolari wants them on the edge of the area in order to counter attack.

It's a bit hard to counter-attack when the ball's in the back of the net though ¬___¬

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I would like to see Carvalho being one of the defenders on the post. For all his other qualities he is very, very poor at man-marking on set-pieces. It would also rob him of an opportunity of wrestling opponents to the ground in our penalty area.

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Not if you're Brazilian. Roman wanted attacking exciting football, not defenders that can defend.

Oh come on now. If there is one line at Chelsea that doesn't need much strengthening, it's our defense. On paper we've got one of the best defenses in Europe. It's not the personnel, it's the preparation.

Plus, many of our conceded goals come from set pieces and on those occasions it's supposed to be the whole team marking and defending, not just the back four.

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It's because Scolari wants them on the edge of the area in order to counter attack.

It's a bit hard to counter-attack when the ball's in the back of the net though ¬___¬

His theory is that that way you get get 30 yd start...unfortunately so o the opposition when its form the kick off

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Oh come on now. If there is one line at Chelsea that doesn't need much strengthening, it's our defense. On paper we've got one of the best defenses in Europe. It's not the personnel, it's the preparation.

Plus, many of our conceded goals come from set pieces and on those occasions it's supposed to be the whole team marking and defending, not just the back four.

Agreed with that, but I would say that our lack of wingers makes our fullbacks push, which is leaving that as the most likely avenue for teams on the counter.

So I think they have started to look worse than they really are. If they had players in front of them on the flanks that could actually bloody cross the ball and threaten a defense, we wouldnt have to depend on them bombing up the sides

Im playing a broken record here, but get wingers in the club and things will be so much better for everyone. We can let the fullbacks hold the line at the back, improving the defense, and playing the occasional one-two with the winger on their flank to help open up the defense.

its a broken record that everyone can hear and can sing along with, but there is nobody at SW6 listening

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Last time when we beat Man United, didnt Sheva(or Ashley Cole) cleared a goal at the far post? Whoever was running training drills back then clearly had more clues than Scolari.

It was Sheva, and Ash come up to him and congratulated him on a great play. Sums up why I loved Sheva, despite the fact he was absolute crap and brought unending stick to all of us. He was an absolute professional, and gave his all every time he went out there, even in the face of some seriously effed up circumstances. His smile after clearing that ball off the line was great.

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I would like to see Carvalho being one of the defenders on the post. For all his other qualities he is very, very poor at man-marking on set-pieces. It would also rob him of an opportunity of wrestling opponents to the ground in our penalty area.

I don't remember him being at fault for many goals at set peices to be honest.

...but I do for drogba- he's great at attacking the ball and jose, grant and scolari all seem to have him take a man... but his marking is always dodgy (which is totally understable)... my point is if we were to change the role of players defending set peices, after the elementary thing of having at least one fullback on the line/post we should look for a way to best use dd's strengths in the air without having him in a man marking role.

anyway- it's really ridiculous that a side that boasts three or four of the best players in the air, plus two players known for clearances off the line to concede so many of these goals.

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I don't remember him being at fault for many goals at set peices to be honest.

...but I do for drogba- he's great at attacking the ball and jose, grant and scolari all seem to have him take a man... but his marking is always dodgy (which is totally understable)... my point is if we were to change the role of players defending set peices, after the elementary thing of having at least one fullback on the line/post we should look for a way to best use dd's strengths in the air without having him in a man marking role.

anyway- it's really ridiculous that a side that boasts three or four of the best players in the air, plus two players known for clearances off the line to concede so many of these goals.

Watch what he does. Take a close look at Carvalho defending set-pieces over the next three or four games. The reason why you can't remember him losing his man at set-pieces is because he rarely marks an opponent one-to-one. He very rarely takes a player tight, man for man. He prefers to drop off. He's always done this. I remember we had a discussion about this during Jose's tenure. On occaisions I have seen other players left with two opponents while Carvalho is defending space.

Incidentally, Scolari has said we are now going to switch to a zonal marking system for set-piece defending. My experience of that is it is a weaker system and much harder to implement succesfully than a man to man system. For instance, Joe Cole would be given a set zone to hold and defend, say the front edge of our box. All the opposition have to do to counter that is deploy their aerial strength to that zone and deliver and attack the ball from there.

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Watch what he does. Take a close look at Carvalho defending set-pieces over the next three or four games. The reason why you can't remember him losing his man at set-pieces is because he rarely marks an opponent one-to-one. He very rarely takes a player tight, man for man. He prefers to drop off. He's always done this. I remember we had a discussion about this during Jose's tenure. On occaisions I have seen other players left with two opponents while Carvalho is defending space.

Incidentally, Scolari has said we are now going to switch to a zonal marking system for set-piece defending. My experience of that is it is a weaker system and much harder to implement succesfully than a man to man system. For instance, Joe Cole would be given a set zone to hold and defend, say the front edge of our box. All the opposition have to do to counter that is deploy their aerial strength to that zone and deliver and attack the ball from there.

I'll look out for it- just saying I can't remember many goals of that type where I'd say "carvalho was at fault there". also I feel from watching terry and carvalho / gallas it seems that, certainly when we play against sides with one up front, is that jt is always the free man and carvalho or gallas would be the player doing the marking -aside from when the ball is in the air when jt would attack the ball either going directly towards the player (goal kicks or other long straight balls that stay airborn for some time), or trying to intercept at the near post (from more angled balls / crosses).

I'm not a great fan of having purely zonal or manmarking, which it seems from scolari's comments are what he sees as his options. I think both have weaknesses, if you have good defenders you should use both IMO.

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I'm not a great fan of having purely zonal or manmarking, which it seems from scolari's comments are what he sees as his options. I think both have weaknesses, if you have good defenders you should use both IMO.

I agree with that. There are 6 zones - both posts, front edge of the 6 yard box, two in the middle of the six yard box, and back edge of the 6 yard box. Stationing the players there, as long as they attack the ball, can be very effective. You can then deploy 3 other players to mark/block the runners in the box. When I played football we always used this system to great effect.

I cannot think of any reason why we don't put men on the posts.

I also think, and have said it before, that the defence has lost some confidence in Cech, which I think is contributing to our loss of goals at setpieces.

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I'll look out for it- just saying I can't remember many goals of that type where I'd say "carvalho was at fault there".

The reason we are playing at all tonight is because Carvalho was at fault from a set play. It was him who made a bollocks of the long throw that Southend scored from. His tendency is to get under the ball. He did it regularly in his first season but improved immeasurably subsequently.

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IMO a purely zonal marking system is unworkable. There has to be an element of man to man marking, pitting your aerially dominant players against the opponent's strongest headers of the ball.

If I may give an illustration.

Imagine we are playing Villa and you take my previous example of Joe Cole, and let's add Kalou, having to hold and defend the front zone of the six yard box. That is their zone. Next let's say JT and Ballack are holding the middle zone of our box and in theory protecting Cech. Now, if O'Neil understood the system and then deployed Laursen and Zat Knight away from the centre of our box and into the zone held by Cole and Kalou, they are, with reasonable delivery, going to win a very, very high percentage of aerial balls that come into that area. In which case, common-sense prevailing, we would have to shift Ballack and JT into that zone to deal with the threat. Therefore, although it's still a zonal system by name, an element of man-marking comes into the equation.

Of course no system is fool-proof and works 100% of the time. But I fail to understand how highly paid professional players struggle to implement a man for man marking system. What could be more straight forward? You only have to do three things to make it work well.

1. Pick up your man early and stay TIGHT.

2. Stay goal side.

3. Get up and attack the ball.

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Southend 1 Chelsea 0

Zonal marking.......................

"IMO a purely zonal marking system is unworkable."

With ANELKA in the key area of the Zonal system !

Scolari has gone 'kin mad !!

I hate the bloody system as well, Ashley Cole running along the goal line - like he was caught in the bedroom by Cheryl with another bird.

JT or Alex in the middle if it has to happen ....

But man on each post, man to man - beat me to the ball if you are man enough is the best ploy.

Their runners into the box had a long jump run up for fark's sake - if that's what the coaches have been serving up in the last two days they should be fined a years wages !

I predict we will win 3-1 though !!

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Scolari has gone 'kin mad !!

Their runners into the box had a long jump run up for fark's sake

I predict we will win 3-1 though !!

Indeed Star. Well spotted. Another disadvantage of the zonal system.

Our players have to be in position to mark their zone prior to delivery of the set-piece. Opposition players can stay out of the area and await delivery of the ball. They can then run in en-masse and attack the ball as we saw Southend do. They have a running jump, our boys have to make a standing jump. Now does anyone here jump higher from a standing start than they do from a run and leap?

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